Guyome's log

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guyome
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Re: Guyome's log

Postby guyome » Wed Jan 19, 2022 6:41 pm

I'm not updating this log very often now but there really isn't much to tell.

Ladino
Marcel Cohen, Lettre à Antonio Saura, 1997 (French-Ladino edition). A meditation in form of a long letter on memory, language, family, loss...It's quite melancholic so far but not without some humor. It's a short work and I'll post more about it soon.

Latin
Reading a lot of Latin as of late. I'm up to Book III of William of Tyre's History of Deeds Done Beyond the Sea, a history of the Latin Kingdoms in the Holy Land. William (1130-1186) was born in Jerusalem itself and later became archbishop of Tyre, so he really is writing the history of his homeland.

William's Latin style has generally been praised and I find it rather pleasant. This, combined with my interest in the topic at hand, means I'll try and read the entire work.

Here are two extracts from Book I:
The first Crusaders set out (I, 17)
Parabatur interim quod ad tantum iter sufficere posse credebatur; et viaticula sua, cum viae quantitate metiri nitebantur, ignorantes quod non sunt in manu hominis viae illius. Ignorat enim mortalis infirmitas quid sibi crastina pariat dies. Non erat uspiam in tot provinciis, quot habet Occidens, domus otiosa vel una. Cuique juxta suam conditionem familiaria suberant, circa quae sollicitabantur, negotia, dum hic paterfamilias, ibi filius, illuc vero tota domus ad migrandum se componeret. Dirigebantur frequentes epistolae, quibus qui simul profecturi erant, se mutuo exhortabantur, attentius moram increpantes et monentes properare celerius. Vocantibusque caeteros his, qui turmarum erant duces designati, cum singultibus et suspiriis dividebantur ab invicem charorum amplexus, et supremum sibi valedicentes, separabantur in osculis. Mater filium, parentem filia, soror fratrem, uxor maritum, in ulnis deportantes parvulos, et suggentes ubera, cum lacrymis et ejulatu comitabantur abeuntes: et dicto vale, quos gressu non poterant, defixis obtutibus prosequebantur.

Unruly Crusaders meet their fate (I, 24)
Solimannus vero illius regionis dux et moderator, audito longe ante Christianorum principum adventu, ex universo interim Orientis tractu, tam prece quam pretio, et modis quibus poterat, infinitas virorum fortium colligens copias, ad easdem partes redierat, ut contra hostiles impetus civibus et regioni optata praeberet solatia. Qui audiens quod Teutonicorum praedicta manus oppidum ejus expugnasset, et expugnatum detinere praesumeret, illuc sub omni celeritate festinat, et castrum obsidens, violenter expugnat, omnibus quotquot intus reperit, gladio peremptis. Interea rumor in castris personuit, et celebri fama pervulgatum est, Teutonicorum cohortes, quae recenter de castris exierant, in manu Solimanni penitus cecidisse. Unde mente plurimum consternati, gemitu et lacrymis, quas prae spiritus angustia cohibere nequeunt, dolorem protestantur. Tandem comperta plenius veritate, exoritur tumultus popularium in castris; vociferante plebe, et id summa exigente precum instantia, ut illatam fratribus tam enormem non dissimularent injuriam; sed correptis armis, omnes unanimiter, tam equites quam pedites, interemptorum fratrum sanguinem vindicaturi procederent. Quod verbum majores exercitus, et qui in talibus pleniorem habebant experientiam, domini imperatoris consilio parere volentes, cum vellent comprimere et furentis populi indiscretum mitigare fervorem, insurrexit plebs adversus eos indomita; et cujusdam Godefridi, qui cognominabatur Burel, qui princeps erat factionis, usa patrocinio, majoribus contumelias coepit irrogare, timiditati ascribens, et non prudentiae, quod fratrum interfectores, ultore gladio non persequerentur.

William of Tyre will likely be enough to keep me busy for weeks but I have some side projects. One is Latin texts about Napoleon, the other is Latin texts about the siege of La Rochelle and Richelieu in general.
12 x

guyome
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Re: Guyome's log

Postby guyome » Fri Feb 04, 2022 8:20 pm

Latin
I left William of Tyre and the Crusaders at the end of book III, shortly after the fall of Nicea in 1097. I'll be back to it soon. In the meanwhile I'm indulging in some light reading, mostly translations of Old Icelandic þættir and short works about Napoleon.


Ladino
An extract of Marcel Cohen's Lettre à Antonio Saura, a bilingual French-Ladino work, on what speaking a dying tongue feels like. The spelling used by the author is a strange blend of Ladino (k), Spanish (y, parece) and French (ou) conventions.
I added my own, quick, English translation. The French and the Ladino versions differ in many small ways, I followed the Ladino text. In case you're interested, an English-Ladino edition has been published in 2006 under the title In Search of Ladino.

IV
La lingua maternal : asi se dize de lo ke se entendya enkaza, ma, en este kavzo, Antonio, la madre no se muere nunka. Siempre se keda fuerte. Puedes azer el mas grande viage, kuando retornas la topas bien en pies. En eya vive tu pasado, en eya te sientes presente a ti mismo. Las palavras son tu verdadero lougar y tu esperanza. Kale ser loko para pensar ke, en eyas, podryas ser un dya el mousafir de ti mizmo. En el mas profondo de ti saves ke las kozas, o al meno el sentido ke tienes de las kozas, no se mueren nunka.
Ma, kuando se bozea tu lingua, kuando se deskae, desaziendos* en el mabul, kuando deves serar los ojos, soliko en tu kamaretika y pensar por oras antes ke trucher dos biervizikos en la luz, kuando no ay nada ke meldar en tu lingua, ninguno dentro tus amigos por avlarla kon ti, kuando el poko ke te keda no lo vaz a dechar a ninguno despues de ti, kuando la mujer de tu alma te miras** komo a un razino ke pok a poko se le fuye el meoyo y ke, kada dya, te deves olvidar mas de ti para ser bien al lado de eya, kuando mirando a su kerida facha te vez, algunos dyas ke te akodras del pasado, komo a un zingano ke no ubyera nunka dourmido kon eya y ke nunka lo podrya porke saves ke, en akeyos momentos, la distansya entre vozotros es tan grande ke parece a la mar, eya veyendo solamente una partizika de ti, alora, Antonio, saves ke la muerte avla por tu boka.

*desaziendose?
**mira?

IV
La langue maternelle : ainsi désigne-t-on ce que l’on entendait à la maison, mais cette mère meurt-elle jamais ? En elle veille notre passé, en elle nous sommes tout à fait présents à nous-mêmes. Et, si les mots sont notre vraie demeure comment ne seraient-ils aussi une bonne part de notre devenir ? Comment imaginer que nous puissions devenir un jour, dans notre propre langue, les mousafires de nous-mêmes ? Au plus profond de nous, nous sentons bien que les choses, ou du moins le sentiment que nous avons des choses, ne meurent pas.

Mais quand cette langue s’effrite jour après jour, Antonio, qu’elle agonise, se dilue lentement dans le mabul ; lorsque, seul dans ta chambre tu dois fermer les yeux pour en exhumer quelques lambeaux, et sans trop savoir qu’en faire d’ailleurs ; lorsqu’il n’y a plus rien à lire dans cette langue, aucun de tes amis pour la parler avec toi, lorsque le peu qui t’en reste, tu ne le transmets pas ; lorsque la femme partageant ta vie te regarde comme un malade, qui perdrait lentement ce qui lui reste de raison, et que tu te sens tenu d’oublier sans cesse un peu plus de toi-même pour ne pas trop l’effaroucher ; lorsque la dévisageant certains jours où le passé te revient par bouffées, tu te prends pour un étranger n’ayant jamais partagé vraiment son toit puisqu’un océan vous sépare et, malgré tous ses efforts, l’empêche d’entrevoir plus qu’une parcelle de toi-même, alors Antonio, tu dois bien admettre que la mort parle à travers toi.

IV
"Mother tongue": such is the name of what was heard at home, but, in this case, Antonio, the mother never dies. She remains strong. No matter how long a journey you take, when you come back, you find her well. In her, your past lives, in her you feel you are present to yourself. Words are your real place and your hope. One must be mad to think that, in them, you could one day be your own guest. Deep down, you know that things, or at least the feeling you have about things, never die.
But, when your language goes bad, when it decays, being diluted in the Flood, when you have to close your eyes, all alone in your bedroom and think for hours before you bring to light two puny words, when there is nothing to read in your language, nobody among your friends to talk to in it, when you're not going to leave the small amount you still have to anyone after you are gone, when your dear wife looks at you like you're sick and slowly losing your mind and every day you have to forget more of yourself to be fine alongside her, when, looking at her dear face, you see yourself, on days when you remember the past, as a stranger who has never slept with her and never will because you know that in those moments the distance between you two is so great that it could be a sea, with her seeing only a very small part of yourself, then, Antonio, you know that Death is speaking through your mouth.
10 x

guyome
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Re: Guyome's log

Postby guyome » Thu Feb 10, 2022 8:21 pm

Ladino
Just got Enrique Saporta y Beja's En Torno de la torre blanca (1982) in the mail today! 337 pages of Ladino from Saloniko. I can't wait to start reading it.
As the author says in the foreword, this is not a novel but a "romanced tale" which serves as an excuse to describe Sephardic life in Saloniko at the beginning of the 20th c. Fine by me!
Este livro no es un romanso. Es un kuento romanseado ke syerve de kuadro i de preteksto a una deskripsyon de los uzos, de las kostumbres i de las tradisyones de los Sefardis de Selanik (Thessaloniki). Si no es los de todos, es al menos, de la majorita de eyos, tal komo eran al empesijo de este sekolo. Tambyen estan notados varyos fatos estorikos ke se pasaron durante akel tyempo en la sivda. Es un testimonyo sovre una djenerasyon i tambyen una evokasyon de un modo de bivir, ay !, agora desparesido.





Despite having been published 40 years ago, copies of the book are available at http://librairie.memorialdelashoah.org.
10 x

guyome
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Re: Guyome's log

Postby guyome » Mon Mar 07, 2022 1:40 pm

Ladino
I started reading Enrique Saporta y Beja's En Torno de la torre blanca (see above). I'm only 70 pages in but I like it so far. The book has an obvious didactic goal in that the story takes a backseat to pages devoted to descriptions of Sephardic life. For instance, the story opens with the birth of Muchiko, son of Avram Toledo, which offers the author the opportunity to describe customs pertaining to birth. Later, Mochiko is looking at the city of Saloniko from the balcony of his parent's flat, which enables the author to launch on a long description of the city. When one of Muchiko's friend gets married, the reader is given many details on Sephardic courtship, family tractations, songs sung on the day of the marriage, etc. It could be tedious but I feel the author has struck a good balance between the story and the pedagogical content, even if the latter definitely outweighs the former.

Chaghatay
I needed some pure escapism and felt drawn back to Chaghatay (see here for previous posts about this), so I'm once again working through Eric Schluessel's An Introduction to Chaghatay. Did lessons 1-5 over the last couple of days, they of course felt very easy since I remembered a lot. No real goal here, I just want to do something that feels good.

The following sentence was part of Lesson 4. It felt sadly topical:
روسيه ده کونکلی قرا بر پادشاه باردور
Rūsiyada köŋli qara bir pādišāh bardur
In Russia, there is a mean king!
11 x

guyome
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Re: Guyome's log

Postby guyome » Mon Mar 21, 2022 7:50 pm

I'm mostly reading Ladino and working on Chaghatay these days. Right now, I'm going through Lesson 10 of Eric Schluessel's Introduction to Chaghatay. It's the last lesson I tackled last year and it feels very much like I never studied it.

I don't know how far I'll end up with Chaghatay this time. Time will tell. It helps that I'm fresh back from a trip to Istanbul, which of course renewed my interest in everything Turkic. Oh, the agony of having to choose between Chaghatay and Ottoman Turkish!
7 x

Eafonte
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Re: Guyome's log

Postby Eafonte » Mon Mar 21, 2022 11:21 pm

guyome wrote:I'm mostly reading Ladino and working on Chaghatay these days. Right now, I'm going through Lesson 10 of Eric Schluessel's Introduction to Chaghatay. It's the last lesson I tackled last year and it feels very much like I never studied it.

I don't know how far I'll end up with Chaghatay this time. Time will tell. It helps that I'm fresh back from a trip to Istanbul, which of course renewed my interest in everything Turkic. Oh, the agony of having to choose between Chaghatay and Ottoman Turkish!


As you already have studied Persian, Ottoman turkish seems to be the best choice for you. Besides that, Ottoman Turkish will provide a hefty exposure to a turkic language based on the arabic script, which will later help your Chaghatay study.
0 x

guyome
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Re: Guyome's log

Postby guyome » Tue Mar 22, 2022 7:27 am

Thanks for stopping by, Eafonte!

Chaghatay also comes with a generous serving of Perso-Arabic vocabulary, so my limited Persian has already been helping a lot!

The main difference I see at the moment with Ottoman Turkish is in the domain of resources. There is just so much more to read in Ottoman Turkish, in so many genres, and the tools are already there. For instance, Chaghatay has nothing like Redhouse's dictionary for OT and that may be a problem in the future (if I stick with Chaghatay long enough, that is). At the same time, I'm more interested in Central Asia than in the Ottoman Empire, so... :D
3 x

guyome
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Re: Guyome's log

Postby guyome » Thu Mar 31, 2022 3:27 pm

Chaghatay
I've been on a steady diet of Chaghatay for the last few days. I'm now done with lesson 12 in Schluessel's Introduction and have done some reading on the side (see this thread for instance).

I don't think I'm going to delve further in to the Introduction right now. The problems I mentioned last year are still there (vocab used in the text but not given in the wordlists, lack of explanations for non-obvious things, not enough practice, etc.). Don't get me wrong! it is a great book and it will, as far as I can see, teach you Chaghatay but it can be infuriating at times.
There's also the fact that I've probably seen most of the basic grammar I'll encounter in texts by now. Whatever remains I can look up when needed.

Consequently, I'll switch to reading easy texts, which should now be more efficient than the Introduction for learning basic vocab and getting used to Chaghatay forms and syntax.
The Swedish Mission in Kashgar published two sequels to the primer I posted about above (in 1920 and 1922 respectively), so I'll probably try and work through these before tackling longer and more complex texts.
8 x

guyome
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Re: Guyome's log

Postby guyome » Fri Apr 01, 2022 1:12 pm

Chaghatay
Here is the first section in the 1920 follow-up text to the 1914 Primer.

The level seems about right for where I am at now. I had to check a few words but not too, too many. The problem is that finding them requires extensive leafing through 4 or 5 different glossaries and using Google Books. In the absence of a comprehensive dictionary for Chaghatay, this seems unavoidable.

There are still a couple of things I don't understand fully though: eytip bärmäk "to tell" seemingly used with -din/∅/-da, the syntax of Bu yurtniŋkidin hawāsi issiq yurtlar häm bardur, the exact value of aŋlasam bolur erdi,...

I also read one section of تأریخ مقدّس, Bible stories for schools published in 1914, also by the Swedish Mission in Kashgar. It actually felt easier than the 1920 primer, no doubt because I knew the story already (part of the Joseph saga). Even vocabulary wise though, I didn't have to look up that many words. Maybe I'll use it instead of the 1920 primer.

Of course, I realise the irony of tackling Chaghatay through Christian texts but it's not like there is a massive amount of easy enough Chaghatay texts floating around. I have my eye on a couple of interesting, more culturally significant texts but my vocab is woefully inadequate to tackle them right now.

1 Oqumaq
1 Reading

Rozi Aḫund wä Niyāz Aḫund degän ikki oğul bala bar erdi.
There were two boys named Rozi Aḫund and Niyaz Aḫund.

Rozi Aḫund oqušni bilmädi lekin Niyāz Aḫund maktabda oqur erdi.
Rozi Aḫund didn't know how to read but Niyaz Aḫund read in school.

Ul ḥażrat Ādam Ḥawwā Ibrahīm Isḥaq Yaʿqubdin wä häm bašqa bašqa waqiʿalar eytip bärmäkni bildi.
He knew how to tell about Adam, Eve, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and also other events.

Ḥażrat Ādamni tonuduŋmu dep Rozi Āḫund sordi.
Rozi Akhund asked: "Did you meet Adam?"

Niyāz Aḫund: yoq ul ötgän zamānda bar erdi dedi.
Niyaz Akhund said: "No, he lived in the past".

Rozi Aḫund: aniŋdin qaydağ bu nemäni bilursän dep sordi.
Rozi Akhund aksed: "Then how do you know this thing?"

Niyāz Aḫund: män aniŋ bārasidin oqudum dep jawāb bärdi.
Niyaz Akhund answered : "I read about his time(?)".


Bir kün Niyāz Aḫund bašqa yurtlarniŋ tuğrasida aŋa eytip bärdi.
One day, Niyaz Akhund told him of(?) the ? of other countries.

Baʿżi yurtlarniŋ hawāsi bu yurtniŋkidin soğaq dur.
"The climate of other countries is colder than the one of this country.

Andağ yurtlarda qawğun wä üzüm pišmaydur.
In such countries, melons and grapes do not grow.

Bu yurtniŋkidin hawāsi issiq yurtlar häm bardur.
There are also countries that have a hotter climate than that of this country.

Andağ yurtlarda baʿżi m.ğizlar bir balaniŋ bašidek čoŋ boladur.
In such countries, some ? become as big as the head of a child.

Ularniŋ suyi širin sütdek dur dedi.
Their water is like sweet milk."


Bašqa bir kün Rozi Aḫund öydä yalğuz turğani učun zerikip qaldi.
Another day, Rozi Akhund kept getting bored because he was home alone.

Bir ḥikāyat aŋlasam bolur erdi dep ḫiyāl qildi.
He thought "I could hear a story".

Ul bir kitāb tapip ani ačti.
He found a book and opened it.

Qaylasa āq kağaź da qara jijiqdin bašqa bir nemäni körmädi.
When he looked, he could see nothing else than lines on the white paper.

Tamām kitāb oḫšaš köründi.
The whole book looked the same.

Heč nemä oq(u)madi.
He read nothing.

Aniŋ učun kitābni yapip alip qoydi.
Because of this, he closed the book and put it away.


Niyāz Aḫund öygä këlgändä Rozi Aḫund eytti ke män bir kitābni ačip oquymän desäm oquyalmadim.
When Niyaz Akhund came to the house, Rozi Akhund said: "When I opened a book to read, I could not read."

Niyāz Aḫund eytti: oqumaqni örgänmäsdin ilgäri kitābda nemä pütügänini oqumas sän dedi.
Niyaz Akhund said: "Because you don't learn to read, you don't read anything of what's written in that book".

Rozi Aḫund: Ay akam ḥāżir oqumaqni örgänsäm bolur dedi.
Rozi Akhund said: "Oh, my older brother, I can learn to read".

Niyāz Aḫund aŋa jawāb berip eytti: Pat yaqinda mäniŋ bilän maktabga barsaŋ bolur miki.
Niyaz Akhund answered him: "Soon you may be able to come to school with me.

Ul yärdä oqumaqni örgänürsän dedi.
There, you will learn to read."

I couldn't find anything about miki in Chaghatay tools but I remembered reading something about it in Brophy & Onuma, The Origins of Qing Xinjiang: A Set of Historical Sources on Turfan (2016). Apparently it is a "colloquial feature".
7 x

guyome
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Re: Guyome's log

Postby guyome » Mon Apr 04, 2022 10:25 am

Chaghatay
I have now read the first five sections of the 1914 collection of Bible stories, Ta:rïxï muqæddεs. The text is rather easy to follow so far, I don't think I had to check Schluessel, Eckmann, or the like, for unknown grammar points. This allows me to read intensively, looking up and jotting down every word I don't know, or only dimly remember from earlier readings. It is helping me a great deal because there are still so many common I don't know (prepositions, etc.). As a consequence, my wordlist is growing fast and it may be that I'll shift towards more extensive reading later.

Dictionary work is still a major hassle but I have slightly optimized the way I approach it by weeding out the less useful glossaries/dictionaries. My go-to approach these last couple of days has been something like:
Step 1) the online version of Raquette's Eastern Turki Glossary
Step 2) Jarring's An Eastern Turki-English Dialect Dictionary
Step 3) Redhouse's Turkish and English Lexicon.

Step 1 fails about half of the times but it's quick. Step 2 is quite efficient. Step 3 is a last ditch effort but often pays off.

Apart from the Ta:rïxï muqæddεs, I have also been doing some random reading in various texts. I can sometimes read entire paragraphs without much trouble, which is great for motivation. This also helps me identify texts that I may be able to tackle at a later point. The story of Tahir and Zohra is a good candidate as it seems to provide a story with a lot of repetition and not too complex syntax.
There is also the fact that Raquette has published a transcription-transliteration-translation of it in 1930: Täji bilä Zohra : eine osttürkische Variante der Sage von Tahir und Zohra. The Jarring Prov. 454 manuscript provides a very clear, easy to read copy of the story (see below), so I can see myself working through it at some point. Being able to read actual manuscripts with ease is a must since printed editions of Chaghatay texts are few and far between.



[امّا هر یکی پادشاه​لارنينک]
فرزندلاری یوق ایردی کچه و کوندوز خدای
تعالی​دین فرزند طلب قیلیب یورور ایردی

[ammā här ikki pādišāhlarniŋ]
farzandlari yoq erdi kečä wä kündüz Ḫudā-ye
taʿāladin farzand ṭalab qilip yürür erdi


[But none of the two kings]
had any children. Day and night,
they kept asking God for children.
6 x


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