Learning Japanese from zero by listening: 2020 Log

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白田龍
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Re: Learning Japanese from zero by listening: 2020 Log

Postby 白田龍 » Thu Oct 15, 2020 5:58 pm

-chatta is used a lot in anime, I see it as a past tense used when things go wrong.

It is related to "shimatta" = I blew it.

http://www.guidetojapanese.org/unintended.html

Naa... is easy to understand: it doesn't mean anything. No need to try to analyse the nuances it conveys, you should get used to it quickly.
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eido
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Re: Learning Japanese from zero by listening: 2020 Log

Postby eido » Thu Oct 15, 2020 6:38 pm

golyplot wrote:However, I'm puzzled by the very first scene.

おじさん: ごめんね。やきそばパン、終わっちゃったなあ。ごめんね。

This line has two grammar points I looked up: ちゃった and なあ.

I watched the video and I can conclude that this sentence means something a bit like:

"Oh man, I'm sorry. I've run out of yakisoba, kid. You've got terrible luck. I'm sorry."
From what I've read, these are both very casual forms, so I'm confused about why they would be used in this situation. Of course, the explanations I found for the meaning were also pretty vague.

I think they're used here because it's an older man talking to a kid, and he has that liberty. But don't quote me on that. The kid would be using the casual forms because he's talking to himself, and therefore not putting his elder in a lower place. Like the site you visited said (and which @dampingwire linked), it expresses a completed action. A "has been done." There's a good explanation here, I think.

Putting both grammar points together, it's something like: "I must apologize, you know. I screwed up again by not making enough yakisoba! Let me say sorry."

Notice the sentence endings. They're an important part of the conversation. -ね as I looked up can be used in both masculine and feminine speech, but here it's being used as tough-guy speech, I believe.

Overall I think the speech reflects the exaggerated nature of the program. I don't think most people would speak so strictly to this mold.

Let me know if I got anything wrong, guys! I'm still learning. ;)
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Re: Learning Japanese from zero by listening: 2020 Log

Postby vonPeterhof » Thu Oct 15, 2020 8:51 pm

I don't think there's anything particularly weird about the school store salesman talking to the kids in casual forms. As a member of the school staff or contracted personnel he's not exactly in a subservient position, but he's also not directly responsible for their education, so his relationship to the kids can be pretty informal (apparently school students often refer to those salespeople simply as おじさん or おばさん instead of something like 店員さん). There are a few other customer service positions that tend to eschew the traditional "customer is God" framing, like street and carnival vendors, or owners of certain kinds of bars or ramen shops (ones who greet their customers with へいらっしゃい instead of いらっしゃいませ). Oh, and there's nothing particularly tough guy about ごめんね, it's just a very informal and cordial sort of apology.
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Re: Learning Japanese from zero by listening: 2020 Log

Postby eido » Thu Oct 15, 2020 9:47 pm

vonPeterhof wrote:I don't think there's anything particularly weird about the school store salesman talking to the kids in casual forms.
...
Oh, and there's nothing particularly tough guy about ごめんね, it's just a very informal and cordial sort of apology.

You would know best, sir! Just trying to help.

Question, if I may invade @golyplot's log: -ね. Is it a guy thing or just a regular sentence ending? When I was scouring the Internet for an answer, I couldn't find one that came to a definite conclusion. There were three different kinds of casual "sorrys" - ごめんよ, ごめんね, and ごめんな. I couldn't find a conclusive answer between the difference in all three, except some might be more masculine or feminine or at times gender neutral. Do you have any insight on this, @vonPeterhof?
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Re: Learning Japanese from zero by listening: 2020 Log

Postby vonPeterhof » Thu Oct 15, 2020 10:26 pm

eido wrote:Question, if I may invade @golyplot's log: -ね. Is it a guy thing or just a regular sentence ending? When I was scouring the Internet for an answer, I couldn't find one that came to a definite conclusion. There were three different kinds of casual "sorrys" - ごめんよ, ごめんね, and ごめんな. I couldn't find a conclusive answer between the difference in all three, except some might be more masculine or feminine or at times gender neutral. Do you have any insight on this, @vonPeterhof?

In general just ごめん by itself is already a casual "sorry" in its own right, and there's no rule that it has to be followed by an emotive particle. But I guess ごめんな is the most masculine-sounding one out of the three, though not quite as masculine as すまん(な). Don't think I've ever heard -ね described as a "guy thing", in fact I have heard the exact opposite - which is an exaggeration, but with a bit of truth to it in that softening and agreement-seeking phrases like -ね are traditionally seen as playing a bigger part in feminine than in masculine casual speech.

As for ごめんよ I have to confess that I'm drawing a total blank as to any usage examples. Not that it sounds somehow ungrammatical or stylistically impermissible, I'm just struggling to recall any sort of situation where I'd have heard it. If I had to imagine a situation where it might be used I guess I wouldn't really think about it in terms of gender, but instead picture a somewhat emotionally tense situation where the apology is actually needed either to prevent an escalation or to deescalate, but seriously do not quote me on this :oops:
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Re: Learning Japanese from zero by listening: 2020 Log

Postby eido » Fri Oct 16, 2020 12:04 am

vonPeterhof wrote:In general just ごめん by itself is already a casual "sorry" in its own right, and there's no rule that it has to be followed by an emotive particle.
...but seriously do not quote me on this :oops:

It's alright. Your answer was better than most I found on Stack Exchange or various scattered sites. You're helping all of us Japanese learners out by sifting through the nuances so we can be better speakers :) I appreciate your service.
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Re: Learning Japanese from zero by listening: 2020 Log

Postby golyplot » Fri Oct 16, 2020 1:58 pm

I gave up on trying to understand the details of the advanced skit and decided to move on and go through the rest of lesson 2. Each lesson of Erin's Challenge also includes a short video explaining a particular grammar point. In this case, it was tekudasai (and only for ru verbs at that!). I of course knew that grammar like the back of my hand, but it was still interesting to try to guess the verbs that they were using as examples to stick kudasai onto the end. It's a bit ironic, since that's basically the opposite of the goal of the video. Incidentally, the video taught it as "remove the masu and add te", which seems like a rather unhelpful way to explain the te form. At least use the dictionary form!

I also watched Natsuki Hanae's third Craftopia video last night. There was one point where the door to the dungeon refused to open (presumably a bug). I noticed they were saying 開ける and the like a lot. I wouldn't have gotten it without the context, but it's still a nice since I doubt I would have noticed that five months ago. There was also one bit where Hanae joked about refusing to open his treasure chest at the end of the dungeon.
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Re: Learning Japanese from zero by listening: 2020 Log

Postby devilyoudont » Fri Oct 16, 2020 4:53 pm

vonPeterhof wrote:...or ramen shops.


I spent a few minutes vainly trying to search "polite language ramen shops" for an article which would explain that there are a number of stores where the owner will not use polite forms with you, but no luck XD And I felt it was useless to say "Yeah, sometimes people in stores don't use polite language, it's a thing at some kinds of shops" XD XD So really glad that someone else knew this because the internet apparently has no idea what I was talking about.
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Re: Learning Japanese from zero by listening: 2020 Log

Postby kraemder » Sat Oct 17, 2020 12:18 am

Just to give some light at the end of the tunnel. よう and many other words that sound the same but have different meanings.. at least with words like よう which are so common, they really do sink in and your brain adjusts according to the context and it's not painful at all. It's all a patience thing. I don't remember how long it took for me though. It helped that I enjoyed my Japanese classes that reviewed this for sure. We had great sentences like.. たなかさんは かみさまのよう です。At least I liked them :D
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Re: Learning Japanese from zero by listening: 2020 Log

Postby kraemder » Sat Oct 17, 2020 12:25 am

eido wrote:
golyplot wrote:However, I'm puzzled by the very first scene.

おじさん: ごめんね。やきそばパン、終わっちゃったなあ。ごめんね。

This line has two grammar points I looked up: ちゃった and なあ.



Is that really grammar? lol. They're like nothing filler words that just add emotion or feeling... I guess everything is grammar until you understand it.
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