Learning Japanese From Zero

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golyplot
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Re: Learning Japanese from zero by listening: 2021 Log

Postby golyplot » Sun Mar 21, 2021 2:41 pm

kelvin921019 wrote:I think that is not yotsuba saying "はいはーい", it's the person answering the door who said that.


Thanks, on closer inspection, I think you are right. I assumed it was Youtsuba based on the way the story flows, but if you look closely, the legs in that panel are wearing different pants than Youtsuba was. A very confusing layout.


Yesterday, I finished my ninth time through Noriko's podcast and started the tenth.

Anyway, on to Yotsubato ch10, in which Youtsuba butchers keigo. I didn't bother trying to understand the keigo stuff.

わがもの
がおだな
GEEZ, YOU ACT LIKE THIS IS YOUR HOUSE

I can't figure out this one at all.

いくつ買えば
いいの

Here, I learned about the -eba form. I was shocked to realize there's a whole verb form I had never heard of before, especially since I've gone through Tae Kim's grammar guide several times. Maybe he covered it and I just forgot about it.

4つで十分

I thought 十分 meant "10 minutes", but apparently it means "enough". Now I know Japanese is just messing with me. Where are the hidden cameras? Also, why does this use the で particle?


あ ケーキ屋って
2つあるよな
そーいや
OH YEAH, WE HAVE TWO CAKE SHOPS

I was puzzled by the って quotation marker here.


じゃ近いほうに
しとこーよ
LET'S JUST GO TO THE CLOSEST ONE THEN

What the heck is しとこ?


みうらは
ちっこいけど
いがいと
おとなだなぁ
YOU'RE REALLY SMALL BUT YOU SURPRISINGLY CHOOSE LIKE AN ADULT

I can see the words ちっこい and おとな in there, but I still have no idea how it fits together. E.g. where's the "choose like" part? Is that just implied from context?

Incidentally this chapter featured Taiyaki, which I hadn't heard of before, so I looked it up, and encountered this photo on Wikipedia. I wonder how many English-speakers passed it by due to not knowing what "pine cream" was supposed to be, or assuming it was pine tree related.

Image
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kelvin921019
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Re: Learning Japanese from zero by listening: 2021 Log

Postby kelvin921019 » Sun Mar 21, 2021 4:12 pm

I hope you don't mind I keep answering your questions because I like reading your log a lot. It gives me a lot of "lenses" to see the language and to clear up some of my knowledge in Japanese.

golyplot wrote:4つで十分

I thought 十分 meant "10 minutes", but apparently it means "enough". Now I know Japanese is just messing with me. Where are the hidden cameras? Also, why does this use the で particle?

You can treat it as "with" (to represent the tool / means) - "with 4, it's enough"
You may encounter this usage when purchasing something e.g.
"この傘一本は千円ですから、三本三千円になります。"

golyplot wrote:あ ケーキ屋って
2つあるよな
そーいや
OH YEAH, WE HAVE TWO CAKE SHOPS

I was puzzled by the って quotation marker here.

This is a topic marker in casual speech. It's function here is similar to "は"

golyplot wrote:じゃ近いほうに
しとこーよ
LET'S JUST GO TO THE CLOSEST ONE THEN

What the heck is しとこ?

I guess it's contraction of しておこう
Because ておく is contracted like this: 買っておく -> 買っとく
[I'm not 100% sure about this one]
Contraction [as explained in Tobira] is something like "There's, they're, It's" in English and you can try to decipher them along this line of thought.

golyplot wrote:みうらは
ちっこいけど
いがいと
おとなだなぁ
YOU'RE REALLY SMALL BUT YOU SURPRISINGLY CHOOSE LIKE AN ADULT

I can see the words ちっこい and おとな in there, but I still have no idea how it fits together. E.g. where's the "choose like" part? Is that just implied from context?

I think it's implied from context
みうらは (Miura) ちっこいけど (very small, but)いがいと(意外と - surprisingly) おとなだなぁ (adult (adjective))

golyplot wrote:Incidentally this chapter featured Taiyaki, which I hadn't heard of before, so I looked it up, and encountered this photo on Wikipedia. I wonder how many English-speakers passed it by due to not knowing what "pine cream" was supposed to be, or assuming it was pine tree related.

This is unrelated to Japanese language. But please have a try of Taiyaki if you have the chance to go to Japan. It's really delicious!
Last edited by kelvin921019 on Mon Mar 22, 2021 4:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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golyplot
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Re: Learning Japanese from zero by listening: 2021 Log

Postby golyplot » Sun Mar 21, 2021 5:08 pm

kelvin921019 wrote:I hope you don't mind I keep answering your questions because I like reading your log a lot. It gives me a lot of "lenses" to see the language and to clear up some of my knowledge in Japanese.


Don't worry, I love getting answers to my questions and seeing people following my log.
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Sizen
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Re: Learning Japanese from zero by listening: 2021 Log

Postby Sizen » Sun Mar 21, 2021 5:41 pm

golyplot wrote:わがもの
がおだな
GEEZ, YOU ACT LIKE THIS IS YOUR HOUSE

Gotta break this one down a bit:

我が物顔

わ+が+もの+がお

わ: old Japanese pronoun for the first person singular ("I"). Also found as われ.

が: が used to be used in the same way as の (and vice versa!), so が could mark the subject of a sentence or act as a possessive particle. You'll see this second use of が occasionally in modern Japanese, mostly with 我(わ)が: 我が子 (my/our/one's child), 我が校 (my/our/one's school), for example. It does show up in other forms, however, like with the auxiliary verb 如(ごと)く (like): 龍が如く("like a dragon" or a bit more literally "in the manner/appearance of a dragon", which also happens to be the English title of the Yakuza series if you're familiar with it). You can also still see の used in the place of が when it's in a relative clause modifying a noun: 背の高い人 (compared to 背が高い) or 先生の言うこと ("what teacher says", compared to 先生が言う), for example. They used to be used almost completely interchangeably, however, although there are theories about honorific, pronoun or animacy/inanimacy distinctions (the latter two being somewhat present at least in some Ryukyuan languages like Miyako Ryukyuan where the particle ga is used with pronouns and personal names, and the particle nu [same as Japanese no] is used with inanimate nouns. Common nouns referring to humans can either take ga or nu depending on the word and the speaker's perception. This is pretty unrelated, but I find it interesting ^^; Also, I paid 500+ dollars to take a class on Ryukyuan languages and culture at uni, so I have to make it worth it somehow!)

我が: my, our, one's (I think it has been mentioned in this thread that the Japanese first personal singular is funny and so you get weird English phrases like マイカー meaning one's car)

もの: thing

我が物: my/our/one's thing.

がお: 顔(かお) face, but with rendaku (k -> g) for compounding purposes. 顔 can be used this way to describe someone's face or their appearance, similarly to 面(つら) which also means face and becomes づら when compounded. A common example is ドヤ顔 which can be translated as a shit eating grin (i.e. arrogant, self-satisfied or smug). The ドヤ comes from the shortening of どうや, which is the western Japanese equivalent to どうだ?(how about that? how's that for you?) In other words, it's the face that someone makes when they have done something and their self-satisfaction or smugness about having done it is showing on their face. As an extension of this first meaning, these words can also signify that someone is acting in a certain way, for example: 父親(ちちおや)づら which is when someone is acting like someone else's father (e.g. "You're not my dad! 父親づらすんな!"). Or another example: 何食わぬ顔 (なに・くわぬ・お, no rendaku here), to act innocent (i.e., pretending that you had no role in something or don't know anything about something). The 何食わぬ part (there's that negative ぬ again) apparently comes from acting as if you didn't eat something even though you definitely did (the chocolate is smeared around your lips).

Here, the whole phrase comes together to mean that the person is making a face as if to say that they own something (i.e. the house), or rather, depending on the context, that they are acting as if they own something. To translate it quite awkwardly, but perhaps more clearly: "You're making a face that makes it seem like you think that you own the place." -> "You're acting as if you own the place."

kelvin921019 wrote:I think it's implied from context
みうらは (Miura) ちっこいけど (very small, but)いがいと(意外と - surprisingly) おとなだなぁ (adult (adjective))

Yeah, 大人 has at least two meanings, one being that of "adult", the other being more like "adult-like" or "mature": 大辞林 under 大人 「考え方や態度が一人前であること」(That one thinks or acts like an adult).
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vonPeterhof
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Re: Learning Japanese from zero by listening: 2021 Log

Postby vonPeterhof » Sun Mar 21, 2021 9:18 pm

golyplot wrote:いくつ買えば
いいの

Here, I learned about the -eba form. I was shocked to realize there's a whole verb form I had never heard of before, especially since I've gone through Tae Kim's grammar guide several times. Maybe he covered it and I just forgot about it.

It is covered in the conditionals section.
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golyplot
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Re: Learning Japanese from zero by listening: 2021 Log

Postby golyplot » Mon Mar 22, 2021 12:12 am

Wow, thank you for taking the time to write such an in-depth response @Sizen. It almost makes me think that these posts should be compiled into a guide somewhere for the benefit of other learners reading Youtsubato.
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Sizen
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Re: Learning Japanese from zero by listening: 2021 Log

Postby Sizen » Mon Mar 22, 2021 1:24 am

golyplot wrote:Wow, thank you for taking the time to write such an in-depth response @Sizen. It almost makes me think that these posts should be compiled into a guide somewhere for the benefit of other learners reading Youtsubato.

No worries. It's been a while since I've had the opportunity to talk about Japanese outside of university, so I'm just enjoying it while I can like everyone else replying too, I think. I'll definitely point people reading Yostubato to this log from now on, though.

Keep up the good work!
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golyplot
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Re: Learning Japanese from zero by listening: 2021 Log

Postby golyplot » Wed Mar 24, 2021 1:11 pm

Ch 11: Youtsuba and Donmai

ねむりさして…
ねむららせ…
ねむさらしねむ…
ねろ!

Here Youtsuba demonstrates her conjugation skills. I have course had no idea how to correctly say "make you sleep", but I don't have to feel so bad when Youtsuba doesn't either :D. (I checked Tae Kim's guide afterwords, and it looks like it's supposed to be "ねませる".

しずかに
してくれ

I was confused here before I thought the imperative form of kuru was koi. It turns out that kureru is actually a different verb which happens to also be irregular in the imperative (kure).

よつばこ

I was very confused by Youtsuba's box being labeled "よつばこ", since it seems like it should be よつばのはこ (in fact, that's how Youtsuba refers to it in the dialog). I guess maybe it's meant to be a pun?

はー?
なにさまですか?

I found it amusing that you can apparently apply honorifics to question words.

てんわだ

Why does Youtsuba say tenwa reather than denwa when the phone rings? Is this just another transcription mistake on bilingualmanga.com?


そういうの
消す知恵とか
(ABOUT HOW TO ERASE THAT KIND OF INK OFF YOR[sic] SKIN...)

What's going on here? It seems like the first part is maybe "wisdom of erasing that kind of thing"? Why is 知恵 used here? And where's the verb? What is toka doing at the end?



As for K-On!, the episode "Summer Classes!" once again featured the characters eating sponge cake with strawberries and white frosting not once, but twice. Come to think of it, they made or ate that kind of cake frequently on Cardcaptor Sakura as well. Sometimes one wonders if Japan knows how to make any other kind of cake. Though to be fair, Nodoka is seen eating sponge cake with white frosting and something else on top at least.


Image

The next episode, "Marathon Tournament!", features a school marathon. I recall something like that showing up in Cardcaptor Sakura as well. Are school marathons a common thing in Japan? I've never heard of anything like that in the US. It also occurred to me that going by anime at least, residential yards being enclosed by walls seems like it's a lot more common in Japan than it is here.
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vonPeterhof
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Re: Learning Japanese from zero by listening: 2021 Log

Postby vonPeterhof » Wed Mar 24, 2021 5:06 pm

golyplot wrote:I checked Tae Kim's guide afterwords, and it looks like it's supposed to be "ねませる".
Close, it's ねむらせる.

golyplot wrote:よつばこ

I was very confused by Youtsuba's box being labeled "よつばこ", since it seems like it should be よつばのはこ (in fact, that's how Youtsuba refers to it in the dialog). I guess maybe it's meant to be a pun?
Yeah, since ばこ is the rendaku form of はこ common in compounds.

golyplot wrote:てんわだ

Why does Youtsuba say tenwa reather than denwa when the phone rings? Is this just another transcription mistake on bilingualmanga.com?
Unless she was pretending to be taking a train in Hyogo prefecture at the time, yeah it's a mistake (fwiw the author of the manga is from Hyogo prefecture :D )

golyplot wrote:Why is 知恵 used here? And where's the verb? What is toka doing at the end?

知恵 is often used to mean accumulated knowledge that can be shared with others. For example, the Japanese version of Yahoo! Answers is called Yahoo!知恵袋. If the manga was being translated these days I'm guessing someone would have translated 知恵 in this line as "lifehack" :lol:

golyplot wrote:And where's the verb? What is toka doing at the end?
This is a broken up sentence structure where the line you quoted is the object transposed to follow the main verb, which is 見た. And とか in this case it just a way of showing a lack of confidence, sort of like saying "..or something like that".
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Sizen
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Re: Learning Japanese from zero by listening: 2021 Log

Postby Sizen » Wed Mar 24, 2021 11:57 pm

golyplot wrote:ねむりさして…
ねむららせ…
ねむさらしねむ…
ねろ!

Here Youtsuba demonstrates her conjugation skills. I have course had no idea how to correctly say "make you sleep", but I don't have to feel so bad when Youtsuba doesn't either :D. (I checked Tae Kim's guide afterwords, and it looks like it's supposed to be "ねませる".

There was actually some research conducted by the linguist Vance that seems to suggest that Japanese natives don't actually use any sort of learned rules to conjugate verbs, but rather that they might just have the appropriate forms memorized as blocks. He tested Japanese natives with nonce verbs (some that could plausibly exist and one that couldn't: kapu), and tested them with multiple choice questions on how those verbs should be conjugated to certain forms. They did.... alright. The worst example was the made-up verb hoku conjugated to the past tense: only 22 out of the 50 respondents answered with the paradigmatically correct and expected hoita. Many (19) thought it should be hokutta and 9 thought it should simply be hota.

The idea is that if they used rules they had acquired as natives or even just mapped their knowledge of similar verbs they know onto new verbs they came across, they should be able to answer correctly most of the time. Since they were often unable to apply this knowledge to new verbs, it's maybe possible that the way Japanese natives conjugate is that... they don't. They simply have the different forms somewhere in their head and retrieve the correct one when they need it. Therefore, when faced with an unknown verb, it would make sense that they struggle because they haven't yet acquired the different conjugated forms of that specific verb, and so have little to rely on when conjugating it.

Point of the story is that even Japanese people might not know how to conjugate properly because it just takes time to acquire all the forms of every single verb. ドンマイ.
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