Learning Japanese From Zero

[CDR]

Congrats on passing the N2!

[sfuqua]

Awesome!

[tangleweeds]

Congratulations! Great work!

[golyplot]

For the last few weeks, I'd been doing five JPDB sessions (and 7 new cards) a day and going through ("reading" might be too generous at times) a chapter of Satori Reader every day. However, JPDB just takes so much time, not only from the direct time spent doing reviews, but how it is mentally exhausting so I always get sidetracked doing other stuff to relax in between. It's just so hard to find the time and keep up with everything, and last night I finally got overwhelmed enough to give up, so today, I only did a single JPDB session to maintain my streak, and never got around to SR at all.

I also started trying to read garyb's last week. I think I started on page 18, but I've still only gotten up to page 38. It takes so much time to read, even though I started skimming after a while. I can't imagine how long it would take for someone to read my own log.

Also, I watched the second episode of Hilda in Japanese tonight but found it a bit harder to understand.

And now for the obligatory random assortment of interesting sentences and new kanji:
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ぽつり

「ここ、楽しいね」
　アンジェがぽつりと呟いた。

I guessed that "ぽつり" meant "in large drops" due to half-remembered previous study on JPDB, and looked it up on Jisho to check my guess/memory. It seems that the main sense is "isolated" so "in drops" comes from that, but according to Jisho, it can also mean "muttering just a few words​" as seen here.

「雨だねぇ」
　アンジェがぽつりとそう言った。

"ぽつり" appeared again later on in that same chapter. I found this instance a bit amusing because it almost seems like a Tom Swifty, given the alternate meaning of "falling in drops (e.g. rain)".

そう言ってすずの顔を覗き込んだゆずに、すずはポツリポツリと今回のことを語りだした。

And in that strange way how coincidences keep happening, right afterwards I encountered "ぽつり" again on Satori Reader as well.

---
New kanji

A "how" kanji in a Yuuhei Satellite song:




　急な展開にアンジェは不安そうだったけれど、俺にとっては予想の範疇だったので特に驚きはない。
疇 - before, companion, same kind

囃し立てるように言うライナーのセリフに、アンジェはとっても照れている。
囃 - cheer

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Weird readings

記す is apparently read "shirusu" for some reason. I would have never guessed. The only reason I even discovered this is that I saw it in a lyric video and could hear the pronunciation in time with the lyrics appearing onscreen.

Incidentally, here's another weird one, where 魂 has the furigana "omoi" for some reason. Jisho didn't seem to know anything about that.

[Greasaias]

Congratulations!

Regarding 少しだけ俺とは逆側に重心を傾ける。
逆側: that's just a "prefix + word" kind of combination.
There is the native (Japonic) 'saka' (the one in 逆様 'sakasama': さかさまに = "in reverse"), but its use is relatively limited, while 'gyaku' is the default, so it's the one used in both new and extemporaneous coinages. E.g. 逆ぎれ 'gyakugire' = snap back (at sb).

"Does anyone know a good way to get better at speaking?"
I) Just do it. Very effective.
II) Just to it - but start with yourself - talk to yourself. Effective, less stressful.
III) Break it into basic components, learn them separately, and combine them later.
E.g.:
1) What do I want to say - contents. What do you want to say? What situations you may encounter?

2) How would you say it? I haven't tried 'language islands', but, if I remember correctly, you write a short, personally relevant piece about something, get it corrected, memorize it, and try to use it during a conversation.
For example (imagine the below is all in Japanese),
Japanese person A: Wow, your Japanese is very fluent!
You: I would like to humbly express my gratitude. As a matter of fact, my great grandfather once met a Japanese person and even learned some Japanese from him. I remember one sentence in Japanese that he told me: 'omae wa mou shindeiru'.

… Something like that. But again, I haven't tried it.

3) Shadowing. The air needs to escape your lungs and pass through your oral cavity. You don't need to be perfect, you need to speak, utter something, emit sounds. Actually saying things helps. (Speaking from experience.)

What I actually did: mostly III) 3) [chorusing and shadowing] first, but tried some (relatively litte) II) [talking to myself], then I went to Japan - was able to "level up" when I went to a few bards and just talked to people. Then I found a personal tutor to do I) [talking with a person] while really focusing on II) [talking to myself].

[golyplot]

JLPT

I'd been thinking about aiming to take the N1 in December 2025, since I'd heard that N1 is massively harder than N2 and it is unrealistic to pass it only a year after reaching N2. However, after finding out that I passed the N2 last week, I started wondering "how hard could it really be?" and planned to take a practice N1 test today to see.

Based on past experience with the practice JLPTs, I expected it to take the entire day. However, it didn't take much time at all because it turned out to be way harder than I expected. I tried the 2015-7 exam, and out of the first six questions on the vocab section, only one was a word I knew. And that's supposed to be the easiest part! Therefore, I decided there was no point in even trying to take the full test and gave up immediately.

I also discovered that the exam uploads I was using leave a bit to be desired with N1 for some reason. For the N2 and lower exams, everything is a PDF and it pretty much looks like a direct copy of the exam booklet. However, for N1, everything is a Microsoft Word file and some of the formatting is lost, making it harder to read. For the 2015 exam, they have a .pdf instead of a .doc, but it looks like it was still OCRed and lost some formatting. On the bright side that makes it easy to copy and paste words to look them up later if necessary. Not that any of that really matters, since it will be a long time before I can hope to take the N1.

Anyway, afterwards, I went to /r/LearnJapanese on Reddit and read a couple posts by people who claimed they passed the N1 in under two years starting from nothing, just by reading tons of VNs (and mining Anki). It was a bit demotivating, but what was really demotivating were the comments. Usually, posts with unrealistically fast JLPT timelines will have comments reassuring other learners that the OP is an outlier and probably studied ten hours a day or spoke Chinese or something. However, the comments on these posts instead kept talking about how "N1 is just the beginning" and how it's not that big a deal and there's still a ton of work to improve your Japanese even after passing the exam. So my motivation is at a low ebb again for now. Seeing garyb's old posts about how much effort he put into learning Italian and how he regretted it in retrospect and still got rusty over time was also a bit discouraging.

---

Spy x Family

On a lighter note, I guess I might as well use the opportunity to talk about the strangeness of the setting in Spy x Family. It's clearly Central Europe-inspired with cities named "Berlint" and the like. All the text is in English, but that's an acceptable break since this is a fantasy universe and it can be based on England as well as Germany. The weird part is all the inexplicable Japanese influences shown.

For example, Anya is frequently shown eating omurice for some reason. At first, I thought that maybe Japanese people just think omurice is "western food" and mistakenly assume that people eat it in the west, but that doesn't make sense because they clearly did do research into the setting since there's also lots of real European dishes shown as well. For example, in the episode where Yor takes cooking lessons, the foods she tries to cook are minestrone, meatballs, and stew, nothing remotely Japanese.



What's really weird though is that although all the text in the series is English, it frequently incorporates Japanese words written in romaji for no apparent reason. It occurred to me that in real life, modern Japanese has borrowed a huge number of words in English - maybe this is an alternate universe where the opposite happened? I'm not sure they thought about it that much though, and it doesn't really make much sense. Especially since apart from the curry and omurice, there's no visible Japanese influence in the architecture, dress, etc.



Also, in tonight's episode, Anya mentions that Damian told her that she can't catch a cold because she's too stupid. I remember seeing the same superstition in The Forbidden Neverland, and possibly Demon Slayer as well (can't remember for sure). It's funny to see random superstitions from another culture that you're otherwise unfamiliar with like this. But it's also another demonstration of inexplicable Japanese influence in Spy x Family. I'm guessing that this one was accidental though, unlike the Romaji writing thing.

[garyb]

I also read some of these Reddit posts about reaching N1 in a couple of years. They were young people who had a lot of time on their hands: they were studying five or six hours per day and sometimes more at the weekend, which is way more than I've ever done in any language! So I'm not comparing myself to them or planning to emulate them, but in a way I still did find it encouraging that they could reach such a high level just by putting in the work, and that the methods they used were nothing fancy: just lots of input plus sentence mining and SRS. I found it a good reminder to not overthink things and just get on with it.

I also think of some people here like Cavesa who went from relative beginner to C1 in a few languages in quite a short time, just using textbooks and plenty of input from TV series etc. Maybe not comparable to Japanese, but judging by my experience, reaching an advanced level in a Romance or Germanic language is still a big achievement even if you already know related ones.

I wouldn't take too much from my Italian experience, since some of it is personal to me: I think I had quite a romanticised view of the culture that turned out to not be realistic, and after having that realisation I also started to feel I was behind in other areas of life (my career especially, but also more “rewarding” interests like music) and wished I had put some of that time into those instead.

I do wonder if some of these Redditors will feel similarly in the future, especially since they devoted all of their time to Japanese, and it’s certainly not unheard of for people who love Japanese culture to be disappointed when they actually go to the country! But hey, knowing another language from a fairly young age is never going to be a bad thing.

Japanese had been on my list for years, but I'm glad that I didn't start learning it until after my trip to Japan so at least I have a sense of the culture and what I'm getting into. Sure, two weeks as a tourist isn't much, but I was with someone who has lived there and spoke the language well so I had a more “authentic” experience and heard a lot about life there. So I don't think I'm falling into the same trap as I did with Italian.

More recently, however, I'd say I've rediscovered my passion for learning languages and I have less regret: is there really anything wrong with getting really interested in something and pursuing it? And knowing Italian certainly has enriched my life. I think I’ve found much more self-acceptance and I’m again embracing my nerdiness and weird interests, rather than listening to societal pressure on what I “should” do and want. But then I think that's largely because I put a lot of time and effort into my career in the last few years and finally got a “good” job, so now I’m allowing myself to indulge in less “profitable” activities again…

I've been watching Spy Family too and I've also noticed the strangeness of the setting. The “Oishi” brand peanuts made me laugh!

[gsbod]

So back in 2008/2009 when I started learning Japanese, I didn't frequent Reddit. But I also heard stories about people getting from 0 to N1 (or 1級 as it was then) in 12-18 months. And it really didn't help my motivation when I failed to progress at anywhere near the same speed.

The way I see it now is that N1 is a bit like C1 for CEFR exams, except they don't test speaking or writing so you can get away with a lopsided skill profile. But anyway, 0-C1 in 18 months is most definitely not normal, even if you're learning a related language, so why should N1 be any different? It's going to take a few years, so you might as well enjoy the journey.

Also, counterpoint to all that is that when I went to sit my N2, there was a sizeable group of candidates sharing war stories about how many times they'd sat (and failed) N2. That seems to be a much more common experience than N1 super quick.

You don't need to make a decision yet anyway. If I were you, I'd take a few weeks to bask in the glory of your N2 result, and keep doing what you're doing with regards working on your comprehension.

As for me, I stopped at N2 and ended up switching to German which was a better fit for me for many reasons. If it wasn't for learning Japanese I'd never have picked up German though, so no regrets there.

[golyplot]

Also, counterpoint to all that is that when I went to sit my N2, there was a sizeable group of candidates sharing war stories about how many times they'd sat (and failed) N2. That seems to be a much more common experience than N1 super quick.

Yeah, I definitely know about that. At my own location, I talked to a few people beforehand - they were mostly going for lower levels, and some had failed before. And even online, it's not hard to find stories from people who have taken a lot longer and gotten to a lower level.

You also get a reality check whenever people are impressed that you can read even really basic kanji. Thursday while standing around at work, I saw a guy with a tshirt that had two characters speaking a bit of Japanese on it, and I tried to read it (it was just two lines, the first was "something 狩り something 周発" and the second I remember as "何もないワ") Another girl nearby said something like "wow you can read kanji?" in a way that made me think that she couldn't even read basic kanji like 何.

The writing didn't make any sense to me (apparently it's a video game reference), but at least I could read most of it. Although to be fair, I wasn't that good at reading it. It took me a moment to realize that ワ was probably "wa" and I misread 狩り as mamori and even after I realized it might be "hunt" instead, I thought "shuri" and it took me a while to remember the kunyomi. But even that is impressive to most Japanese learners.

And of course, I also know how much work it has taken to get to where I am because I lived through it and I know how much progress I've made over the years. But even knowing all that, those Reddit comments can get you down sometimes.

---

In other news, I learned two interesting onomatopeia from Phoenix Wright recently. I remember Kiyo saying "gorigori" when he deliberately kept giving wrong answers before choosing the right one, and "herahera" when describing Pheonix's embarrassed face.


I also found this line interesting, since it seems to be a phrase but I was unable to find it on Jisho. Apparently, "oru" can mean "to interrupt" in addition to the more usual meanings, and "kotsukotsu" means "unflaggingly" and from context it presumably means something like "don't interrupt people while they're talking", but I was disappointed that I didn't find an entry for the full "kotsu wo oru" phrase.

[golyplot]

Spy x Family

Last night's episode of Spy x Family introduced a rival spy codenamed Nightfall (tobari). However, when I looked up "tobari" on Jisho, the only thing that came up was "curtain", and it was spelled 帳. However the show translates it as Nightfall and uses different kanji. What's up with that?



Also when Yor is being questioned by Fiona, she thinks to herself "I'm a housewife, I'm a housewife" and the Japanese sounded like she was saying "itozuma". I assumed the second part was a rendaku'd tsuma (wife), but either way, I wasn't able to find anything on Jisho no matter what I tried, even after trying every variation I could think of. Even searching for "housewife" didn't turn anything up.



Two other notable words I heard and paused to look up during the episode - anken (matter of discussion) and mushimegane (magnifying glass). I wondered if Japanese people ever try to make a pun on "bug glasses".

---
Songs

I also watched some more songs on Youtube last night and encountered three new kanji:

喘ぐ (gasp)


椛 (fall leaves)


瞼 (eyelid)


---
Moumoku Tenshi

This morning, I woke up at 5:30 and couldn't fall back asleep, and I eventually tried reading a chapter of Moumoku Tenshi for the first time in a while. In this chapter, they play a fictional version of Chess called トリアット for some reason.

Incidentally, Toriatto is described as a "頭脳ゲーム". I assumed that would be read "tounou", but apparently it is actually "zunou" for some reason. Yet another weird reading of a common kanji that I've never seen before. Or at least that's what I thought. After further searching on Jisho, I realized that I had seen it before in 頭痛, but I always assumed that was just a weird exceptional reading and didn't pay it much mind.

「もう一個前に、行ってれば、お姫さま、止めれるでしょ？」
「一個って一マスのことか。……確かにそうだな」

I found it interesting that Anje apparently used 個 as a counter for spaces on a chessboard. But based on the response, Satosu seemed to be a bit confused by that as well. I also noticed マス, which reminded me of 升 (grid) taught on Wanikani. It's cool to see it in the wild for the first time, even if it is only written in kana here.

「馬を前に出すか。四マスかな」

マス shows up again later on, this time seemingly being used as a counter by itself.


「うーん……それは、ライナーさんが、嫌いだと思うし、次の次で、お馬さんに、取られちゃいそうだから、最後まで、いけないんじゃないかな？」

I initially read お馬さん as obasan before immediately correcting myself and realizing that it is probably "oumasan". However, I found it amusing that the onyomi for 馬 just happens to sound like the common word for grandma (or "aunt" technically, since it's a short vowel. Incidentally, who on earth thought it was a good idea to make vowel length contrastive in a common word like that!? Think of the poor English speakers!)