What next? (learning Spanish, maintaining German, random dabbling...)

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Cavesa
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Re: gsbod's language log (mostly German)

Postby Cavesa » Wed Aug 29, 2018 8:41 pm

gsbod wrote:
patrickwilken wrote:I love Anki, but I think it can only ever be a stepping stone to native materials.

I say that because I think the parts of the brain that do language really need language to learn, and unfortunately Anki cards generally are very restricted in their "language" content.


Maybe an important consideration is what you are asking yourself to do with Anki. For me, the most efficient way of working was with two way translation of words and phrases. I found cards with larger amounts of content for "context" tiresome compared to just using native materials, and cards looking for detailed answers just had too many ways to "fail" to be effective in relation to the SRS algorithm.

In short, I was always testing myself for a preferred translation of a word or phrase (either English or German). This helped build a basic lexicon, and also helped train me to watch out for basic details, like noun gender and the correct prepositions in fixed expressions. All useful stuff at A and B levels.

Where the limits lie I think are two-fold. Firstly it relies on the premise of there being a "preferred translation". This makes sense, to me, at lower levels where it makes sense to learn the most common English equivalent of a word first and fits in to the Pareto principle. But at the higher levels this whole concept becomes absurd, since there are many meanings to many words, and words often do not map exactly to words in other languages. And of course, at higher levels, translation is a professional skill to be developed in its own right, if that's the direction you want to go. Secondly, it doesn't allow you to adequately test yourself on synonyms or alternative ways of phrasing expressions. This is much more important to add colour and depth to your language at higher levels, and to avoid the danger zone of using the wrong synonym in the wrong context, at best sounding wrong, at worst sounding offensive.

That said, if I had an exam coming up which I knew would rely on a set of specialised vocabulary, I'd be drilling it in Anki straight away.


The cards are only as restricted as your imagination while creating them.

You can create a card with a whole sentence and just one word missing. Or add a bit of context to the question, like a common phrase using it.

For synonymes, I sometimes create a hint "L1word (not this L2word)", to force myself to remember a different synonyme. Or pointing out a subtle nuance of the meaning can sometimes work.

I don't think context is much of an issue as long as you keep devouring lots of native input. SRS doesn't somehow erase having seen the word elsewhere.
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gsbod
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Re: gsbod's language log (mostly German)

Postby gsbod » Wed Aug 29, 2018 9:06 pm

Cavesa wrote:The cards are only as restricted as your imagination while creating them.


Yes, sort of. However, I found that the more detail I had on a card, the less effective it was - a combination of trying to do too much at once to get a right answer and having to see too much of the same thing too regularly with the SRS algorithm. Cloze cards also do not really work for me - it's harder for me to learn words in the first place with cloze cards, and I am less likely to recall the words within the cloze cards when I actually need them. I have no idea why this is!

Also when I talked about limits of Anki in my last post, I really meant limits to the way that I personally use the system. One of the great things about Anki is its customisability. The whole subs2srs thing is a great example - but again something that in practice didn't actually do much for me personally, although I know other people have had great results with it.

Cavesa wrote:For synonymes, I sometimes create a hint "L1word (not this L2word)", to force myself to remember a different synonyme. Or pointing out a subtle nuance of the meaning can sometimes work.


I've done this too, and it does work to a point. Until you have collected several synonyms, but one is only really appropriate when writing, 2 are interchangeable but only in certain situations, and one is often used in a region you travel to regularly but not elsewhere, and then it is back to the issue of too much detail.

Cavesa wrote:I don't think context is much of an issue as long as you keep devouring lots of native input. SRS doesn't somehow erase having seen the word elsewhere.


I think maybe learning a word properly is about noticing it enough. First you notice the word in various different contexts (usually through native input and/or interactions with native speakers). Then you start to notice situations in real life where you could use the word yourself. Any kind of vocabulary study outside of native input, if it is worth the effort, should help speed up the process by drawing your attention to which words are worth noticing. And it should also help you get the fiddly details right (orthography, conjugation, noun class etc) if your brain isn't already primed to notice these things automatically.

Anyway, right now my number one priority is still devouring all the input!
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Re: gsbod's language log (mostly German)

Postby patrickwilken » Thu Aug 30, 2018 8:15 am

gsbod wrote:
Cavesa wrote:The cards are only as restricted as your imagination while creating them.


Yes, sort of. However, I found that the more detail I had on a card, the less effective it was


That's my impression too. It's also just gets a bit tiresome.

gsbod wrote:I think maybe learning a word properly is about noticing it enough. First you notice the word in various different contexts (usually through native input and/or interactions with native speakers).


There was one sort of card that I found pretty effective in the past. When reading an ebook through Readlang, it's very easy to extract out full sentence with the words that were looked up marked. So then I created cards like so:

Q: This is the word that I need to learn in a sentence from the book I was reading.
A: Definition of word or blank.

So the whole task is simply to recognize the word in the context of the sentence and not translate it. It just allows more repetitions of the word in context and because the cards are easy you can add many more cards per session than with more traditional word lists.
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Re: gsbod's language log (mostly German)

Postby gsbod » Thu Sep 06, 2018 6:08 pm

I feel like I have just received a kicking from a textbook.

My number one priority is still to devour all the input. However, in the effort to continually try to polish my German I am also now working through the Mittelpunkt Neu C1 textbook. After working through some exercises in the Arbeitsbuch I discovered the following:

I made some shockingly lazy mistakes with case endings
I misunderstood one of the exercises entirely (and after rereading it several times I still don't understand what it is really asking)
One of the exercises was about rewriting an article from Nominalstil to Verbalstil, to make it more friendly and inviting. I did a straight point by point rewriting as if it were a series of grammar exercises. The model answer however was beautifully structured, including a number of connectors I'd never even heard of (I never realised there were so many ways to say "furthermore" in German)

Ouch.
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Re: gsbod's language log (mostly German)

Postby StringerBell » Thu Sep 06, 2018 10:17 pm

gsbod wrote:However, I'm not sure that interesting native materials alone are enough, for me. Or maybe I need to change the way my brain engages with them. For example, if I'm suitably impressed by what I am reading or watching I tend to remember the context without remembering the details of the language used.

I think what is needed is to attack the problem from a few different directions at once - on the one hand trying to be more diligent about noticing vocabulary when I use native materials, on the other hand undertaking some targeted vocabulary work. For example, when I went to the language school in Berlin last year I was impressed with the way one of my classmates consistently made the effort to re-use new vocabulary that came up in the course.


This might be a boring idea, but what about after watching/listening/reading something new you write a few paragraphs summarizing what you just "consumed" trying to use as many new words or expressions as you remember? If you don't feel like writing, you could even just do the summary mentally in German. I find that when I make an effort to use a new word I just came across, it sticks with me, but if I just say, "oh yeah, that's interesting" and never do anything with it, I forget it almost immediately unless I keep coming across it.
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gsbod
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Re: gsbod's language log (mostly German)

Postby gsbod » Tue Jan 01, 2019 9:01 pm

I haven't logged for some time, because autumn 2018 was in many respects transitional, and I felt that commenting about that on here may well have been counter productive while I tried to figure a few things out. I'm still figuring things out.

It occured to me recently that the biggest shift between the lower CEFR levels and the upper ones is a shift from range to accuracy. I think the most important sign of progress from A1 through to B2 is range, i.e. as you learn more grammar and vocabulary you becoming able to use the language in a greater range of situations. By the time you get to a decent B2 level, you should be able to do pretty much anything in your target language, however it will often not be pretty. That's why the most important measure of progress between B2 and C2 is in terms of accuracy and precision - that is to say that by C2 you have eliminated most errors and you have a decent range of synonyms in your head and can pick the most appropriate one for any given situation.

I think a lot of my difficulties in 2018 with German have been in adjusting to the requirements of this change of focus. However, it is at a point now where I could just sit back and enjoy the results of my efforts so far. I know that even if I never formally "study" German again, I've given myself a skill that I will be able to put to use in many different ways for the rest of my life. The question I still ask myself is whether I am good enough to use German professionally. I think I won't really know unless I try, and right now although it is something of an escape fantasy for me when things are not going well (the other being dreams of a lottery win) I don't know whether I really want to look for opportunities in that direction or not.

I have been flirting with ideas about picking up another language to fill the breach if I am not studying German any more, but it is difficult to commit to anything at the moment. I have unfinished business with French and Japanese - however there are issues to overcome with both of these which are not exactly straightforward, otherwise I would have dealt with them already. That's why it is unfinished business! For the last two years I've taken an annnual holiday to Italy and if I keep up this routine it would be rude not to at least develop my Italian to a competent tourist level (A2 would do). I have a curiosity about other Germanic languages and I do wonder whether my affinity with German could spread to, say, Dutch or Swedish. And since I've lived in Wales for some 15 years now, is it finally time to take the plunge and learn some Welsh properly?

The thing is, I know from experience that the difficulty comes not so much with starting, but with carrying on after the first few weeks when the process starts to become more routine, or when life gets in the way as it invariably does. With so many different options to think about, I am already too distracted to get my head down with any single one (or two, if I was feeling adventurous). In many respects I think this is already a sign that I am just not ready to start flying with another language yet.

I have decided on a new year's resolution to read more German books in 2019. After counting things up at the end of 2018 I realised I'd only finished 3 German books for the whole year, which is pretty disappointing and my lowest annual total since I started reading real books in German. This year, I can do better! How's that for some new year enthusiasm?
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Brun Ugle
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Re: gsbod's language log (mostly German)

Postby Brun Ugle » Wed Jan 02, 2019 9:39 pm

I think what you said about range and accuracy is right. I’d never heard it put that way before. You’ve given me something to think about. I wonder if it will have any influence on how I study.
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gsbod
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Re: gsbod's language log (mostly German)

Postby gsbod » Wed Jan 02, 2019 10:47 pm

Thinking further on the range/accuracy shift, this may explain that although B2 is a sensible goal for someone who wants to go beyond the level of competent tourist ("when I get to B2, I can do anything!"), reaching it is maybe not as satisfying as you might expect ("it says I'm B2, but I still feel like a babbling idiot half the time").

As for how your study methods could be improved to take account of this shift, I have no idea. Unfortunately I underestimated my German level for so long, I got most of the way from B2 to C1 without even realising it!
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Re: gsbod's language log (mostly German)

Postby gsbod » Thu Jan 03, 2019 7:03 pm

I finally cracked open a vocabulary book I picked up in Berlin last year - Da fehlen mir die Worte. It is somewhat different to any other vocabulary book I have seen. I need to work through more of the book before I can give a proper review, but first impressions are that it really tries to get under the bonnet of vocabulary learning, and it is written by someone with a real passion for the German language and a strong desire to share that passion with German learners. It brings to mind both the approach and the enthusiasm of one of the tutors I had when I attended German school in Berlin in 2017, which cannot be fully captured in book form, and I have really missed it.

The first chapter is called "Bedeutungen" and it is all about using Oberbegriffe and Unterbegriffe (please someone help me translate these words into natural English - I know instinctively what it means but my dictionary is giving me translations like "subsumable concept" which is really no help), characteristics and components, context and association to describe words and expand your vocabulary.

The first full exercise I have completed gives a rather long list of "Unterbegriffe", which you have to then sort under one of six "Oberbegriffe": Besteck (cutlery), Fahrzeuge (modes of transport), Hunde (dogs), Kleidung (clothing), Obst (fruit), Sportarten (types of sports), and Musikinstrumente (musical instruments). What makes this exercise special is that the selection of Unterbegriffe has deliberately avoided the obvious, and as a result I have discovered the following things:

Some types of dogs have brilliant names: der Dackel for dachshund and die Dogge for great dane stand out to me.
Der Pudel is a type of dog, but die Pudelmütze (poodle hat) is a bobble hat.
A mitten is ein Fäustling - I may have to start calling them fistlings in English, it sounds adorable to me.
Die Schattenmorelle sounds both sexy and tasty - and so it should be, as it is a morello cherry. (I would add however, from previous experience, whilst die Forelle is also a lovely sounding word, I can't stand the taste of trout).
Die Stachelbeere, or prickly berry, is a gooseberry. Neither the German nor the English word sounds particularly appealing to eat, but the German word tells you why.
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Re: gsbod's language log (mostly German)

Postby SGP » Thu Jan 03, 2019 7:21 pm

gsbod wrote:The first chapter is called "Bedeutungen" and it is all about using Oberbegriffe and Unterbegriffe (please someone help me translate these words into natural English - I know instinctively what it means but my dictionary is giving me translations like "subsumable concept" which is really no help), characteristics and components, context and association to describe words and expand your vocabulary.
Another translation of Oberbegriff (= Überbegriff) would be superordinate concept (or term), or simply umbrella term. Now that metaphor does illustrate the whole thing. And an Unterbegriff is a subordinate concept (or term).

There also is something that could be even better sometimes. It would be about not translating it by one or two words only, but about writing a longer phrase that conveys the very meaning.

Begriff means term. Ober-/Über- and Unter- are rather obvious, too. About "above" or "super", and "below" or "sub".

Now what about the combination? I'd like to simply provide an example.

"Obst" ist ein Überbegriff für Äpfel, Birnen, Bananen, Papayas und viele weitere Sorten.

That means that "Obst" (i.e. fruits) is a term that covers a multitude of subcategories. Like apples, pears, bananas, papayas, and many other types of fruits.

Some types of dogs have brilliant names: der Dackel for dachshund and die Dogge for great dane stand out to me.
Speaking of animals, did you already learn about so many terms for animals ending in -tier? Like "lazy animal" (sloth), "belt animal" (onyx), "stink animal" (skunk), "peak animal" (platypus) and so on. Someone compared that to Comic "Super Heroes", because they are named after their "Super Powers", too.

Die Stachelbeere, or prickly berry, is a gooseberry. Neither the German nor the English word sounds particularly appealing to eat, but the German word tells you why.
Stachelbeeren sind einfach was ganz besonderes.
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