What next? (learning Spanish, maintaining German, random dabbling...)

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dampingwire
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Re: 日本語で韓国語を the ultimate language nerd (side) project

Postby dampingwire » Sun Oct 11, 2015 6:34 pm

gsbod wrote:
Monox D. I-Fly wrote:
Evita wrote:As for 어 and 오, sure they are difficult at first, but maybe German will help you. If you listen to the words "oben" and "kochen", you will hear that the "o" sounds in them are different. The first is similar to 오, and the second one is similar to 어.


Ummm... Because I am curious but I know nothing of German pronounciation, can you give me an example in English word for both "o" sounds?


It's a little tricky, since vowel shifts are very common between different English accents, however in my own version of English the "o" in "rock" is very similar to that in "kochen". However, as far as I can tell, the "o" in "oben" doesn't exist in English. The closest sound would be the "o" in "over", but if I use this sound when I speak German it's a dead giveaway that I'm a Brit.


I find forvo very useful for this sort of thing. Here are oben and kochen.
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新完全マスター N2聴解 : 94 / 103新完全マスター N2読解 : 99 / 177
新完全マスター N2文法 : 197 / 197TY Comp. German : 0 / 389

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Montmorency
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Re: gsbod's language log (DE/FR/JA/KO)

Postby Montmorency » Sun Oct 11, 2015 10:06 pm

gsbod wrote:I also confirmed my suspicions that German TV is, in general, pretty dire, I would say on a par with Channel 5 here in the UK. Radio Deutschlandfunk, on the other hand, seems to be at least as good as our BBC Radio 4, so I really should make more of an effort to listen to it.


Hi Gsbod,

Just wanted to agree with your judgement here. In fact, TV almost everywhere seems pretty dire! Quantity rather than quality. I barely watch any UK TV, and then only from a select few programmes from a select few channels.

You might try:

http://www1.wdr.de/radio

and check out the podcasts. I'd say the WDR5 station is at least on a level with BBC Radio 4, and some programmes are even more highbrow.
There is a range of other stuff on the other stations.

My German has been on the back-burner for a couple of years, but I'm getting back into it slowly, and glad to find it hadn't disappeared, and at a passive level anyway, I still seem to be able to remember lots. I'm using podcast-listening to ease my way back into it, and not worrying too much about speaking for the time being.
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gsbod
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Re: gsbod's language log (DE/FR/JA/KO)

Postby gsbod » Sun Oct 18, 2015 9:12 pm

Thanks for the tip about the WDR podcast, Montmorency. Thanks to you I have now started listening to the multipart radio play called "The Cruise" which can be found on the Hörspiel-Speicher podcast series I've just listened to one episode so far, but it scores well for me in terms of both comprehensibility and creepiness!

As for a general update this week, well, it's not been my most successful week for language learning. I caught a heavy cold, which I'm still recovering from, which has rendered any pronunciation or speaking work pretty much useless, which means that French most definitely hasn't been happening and I've barely done any German either.

I put a load of new words into my German Anki deck just before I got sick. Anki has been about the one thing that I have still been doing consistently this week, on the grounds that I don't need to listen, speak, or think particularly hard about it. My Anki deck is set up so that I type in the answers for the cards that go L1 > L2, because it helps me keep an eye on whether I've internalised the orthography and I can't cheat with noun genders. However, normally when I am reviewing I usually say around 3/4 of the answers out loud as well. It's not a habit I consciously developed, it's just something I do. Interestingly, I've found this week that, since I haven't had the will to do any speaking when learning/reviewing vocabulary, it's taken considerably longer for me to memorise the new words. It's funny how sometimes you don't realise how important something is, until you stop doing it.

I'm also still making slow and steady progress through Kafka am Strand. No voice required for that one. Just a comfortable surface on which to sit with my Kindle will suffice. Anyway, I'm 64% done now and it really is getting easier. I'm looking up noticeably fewer words per page, and the number of totally perplexing sentences has also reduced significantly. Think I'll head off now to read a few more pages before bed...
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gsbod
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Re: gsbod's language log (DE/FR/JA/KO)

Postby gsbod » Wed Nov 04, 2015 10:08 pm

I've added a couple more resources to the long list of things I am plodding along with for German. Firstly a grammar book called "Essential German Grammar" by Martin Durrell et al. I don't normally consume grammar books from cover to cover, but I think I've reached just the point in my German studies and have found a readable enough grammar that suddenly, this is becoming an appealing idea. So far I've just read the first chapter plus dipped into a few other random pages, and have already had a lot of "a-ha" moments, where I find good enough explanations for things that I'd noticed in my reading and had been bothering me.

I've also picked up a tiny little vocabulary book called Wort für Wort, which is aimed at German 'A' Level students here in the UK ('A' Level being the exams you sit at age 18, nothing to do with the CEFR). I actually had the French counterpart when I did 'A' Level at school, but never got on with it, mainly because I had no idea how to use it and it comes with pretty rubbish advice in the front about turning off your music and repeating things out loud a lot. Anyway, now I'm older and wiser, and realise that it provides me with a pretty cheap list of words and phrases, with all the little grammar details you need, plus reasonable definitions/translations to English, covering a range of themes a step beyond the beginner level tourist and home life type of vocabulary, but still common enough to be generally quite useful, especially for reading news articles etc. At the moment I'm going through picking up which German words I don't recognise or can't work out using knowledge of related vocabulary, and learning them. I might go back through later to pick up words I can't translate from English, but for now that would be too overwhelming.

I've listened to the second episode of "The Cruise", which was even creepier than the first. Maybe creepy to comical proportions, depending on how you feel about swarms of scorpions. The sound effects were also somewhat vivid, particularly when it came to a makeshift operation to remove a bullet.

I seem to have taken a break from iTalki. It wasn't intentional, but first I got sick with yet another heavy cold, then I was really busy at work, and I just haven't found an appropriate time to schedule another lesson. I really ought to get back into it.

Other that it's just the same old plodding along with classes, Begegnungen, Grammatik aktiv, the Lernkrimi, watching TV and reading Kafka am Strand...
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gsbod
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Re: gsbod's language log (DE/FR/JA/KO)

Postby gsbod » Fri Nov 06, 2015 5:42 pm

Last night I finally finished reading Kafka am Strand.

When I started trying to read real adult fiction in Japanese, I found Murakami’s short stories to be a perfect place to start. He has a relatively straightforward writing style, a tendency to repeat himself, and tends to include references to quite banal activities (i.e. using lots of everyday vocabulary) and Western popular culture, providing lots of help for language learners like me.

So I was often surprised to find people reacting somewhat incredulously when I told them that, when learning to read real Japanese, Murakami is a good place to start.

Having read Kafka am Strand now I think I understand why. The translation to German still maintained a straightforward writing style, however the banal was juxtaposed with the bizarre and, at times, incredibly brutal. The Western popular culture references were accompanied by Western philosophy references and some general philosophising on the part of some of the characters. So on the whole, it was not a particularly easy read, although the difficulties lay in the subject matter rather than the language used. I think there are bits of the book I would have struggled to understand if I’d read the English translation instead.

So from now on, I will temper my advice to people who want to start reading real Japanese as follows: short stories by Murakami are a good place to start.

That said, my German reading ability has definitely had a little boost over the 640 or so pages of the book, particularly the last 30% or so, which I covered in much quicker time than the first part of the book. My German reading still doesn’t feel quite as fluid or natural as French, but it’s getting closer. In fact, my passive vocabulary is about as strong, if not slightly stronger, now in German, it's just the grammar that is holding me up a bit, since German word order requires a few more mental somersaults than French. But I've had to deal with this in Japanese already, German should still be easier!

For my next book, however, I think I would like to stay clear of any magical realism, and ideally go for something a little shorter. A forum member on one of the Rätsel Skype sessions told me about a book they were reading called Couchsurfing im Iran, which sounded quite interesting, so I think I might go for that next.
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gsbod
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Re: gsbod's language log (DE/FR/JA/KO)

Postby gsbod » Sun Nov 15, 2015 5:52 pm

I'm getting too bogged down with German vocabulary and I'm trying to figure out what to do about it. For the last year, I've taken a pretty consistent approach to vocabulary study, by making and reviewing Anki flashcards based mostly on unknown words I've encountered in learner materials, but also occasional words that have let me down when trying to speak or write German. Combined with words I am picking up incidentally from listening to music and reading with my Kindle, i.e. words I am learning without even trying, my vocabulary, both active and passive, is pretty strong compared to my overall level.

On the one hand, as a language learner, you can never known enough vocabulary. On the other hand, I am running the risk of turning into one of those people that can pull pretty arcane words out of the hat in their target language, but consistently screws up with basic grammar patterns or making small talk.

I don't exactly want to throw the baby out of the bathwater when it comes to vocabulary, but I am wondering how to change my routine (actually, it's been so consistent for so long now, it's more like a habit) in order to change the emphasis and start working consistently on the basic grammatical problems I am having rather than just learning more and more vocabulary, which in the long run may be useful, but is not solving my more immediate problems with the language.
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PeterMollenburg
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Re: gsbod's language log (DE/FR/JA/KO)

Postby PeterMollenburg » Sun Nov 15, 2015 9:38 pm

gsbod wrote:I'm getting too bogged down with German vocabulary and I'm trying to figure out what to do about it. For the last year, I've taken a pretty consistent approach to vocabulary study, by making and reviewing Anki flashcards based mostly on unknown words I've encountered in learner materials, but also occasional words that have let me down when trying to speak or write German. Combined with words I am picking up incidentally from listening to music and reading with my Kindle, i.e. words I am learning without even trying, my vocabulary, both active and passive, is pretty strong compared to my overall level.

On the one hand, as a language learner, you can never known enough vocabulary. On the other hand, I am running the risk of turning into one of those people that can pull pretty arcane words out of the hat in their target language, but consistently screws up with basic grammar patterns or making small talk.

I don't exactly want to throw the baby out of the bathwater when it comes to vocabulary, but I am wondering how to change my routine (actually, it's been so consistent for so long now, it's more like a habit) in order to change the emphasis and start working consistently on the basic grammatical problems I am having rather than just learning more and more vocabulary, which in the long run may be useful, but is not solving my more immediate problems with the language.


I can see how this would happen, and I could quite easily see myself heading down this path with French as my acquisition methods for vocabulary are very similar to yours.

A few things come to mind. Are you deleting well known cards/words? If not, then perhaps you need to start... OR if you're afraid of losing cards you've created, duplicate/copy the deck so you are left with a "full copy" and then delete away in your new copy.

Another thing that comes to mind is cut down your repeats/drills if you find you're acquiring the vocab fairly effectively. It sounds like you need to streamline somehow.

You could also limit yourself on new cards. Have a limit on the number of new cards you create per study session/day/whatever works.

Or you could try doing away with the cards altogether. I wouldn't do it myself, but many would. Perhaps you could ONLY enter new cards on certain days, or with certain activities. I have trialled only entering 2 new words max during reading sessions- you could try sth similar. Another thing you could do is STOP with your current deck(s) and start an entirely new one. The words you forget (from your main flashcard deck) will become apparent and pertinent as you come across them again and think, oh, I really should remember that word but I don't. Therefore, in that case, add those words to your new deck, and those you see and recall well there's no need to add them to the new deck. I'm pretty much taking this approach and it seems refreshing. It's a matter of time (a long way off yet) before I dump this 2nd deck as well and start building a 3rd.

Hope this helps.
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gsbod
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Re: gsbod's language log (DE/FR/JA/KO)

Postby gsbod » Sun Nov 15, 2015 10:19 pm

Thank you for your well thought out suggestions, PM. For anybody heading towards an Anki-fuelled burnout, I would suggest these are all very good approaches. The feeling you get after deleting a deck which has become nothing more than a burden dragging you down is unbelievably refreshing.

The thing is, I'm nowhere near burning out on Anki at the moment. I am finding it convenient and effective and unless I am too tired to learn anything with any method, I don't mind spending the time doing it. It's just I'm spending a lot of time solving a problem that probably shouldn't be my priority right now.

I think I know what the solution is:
  • Spend a bit of time every day on grammar drills
  • Make sure I practice both speaking and writing at least once a week
  • Be very choosy about what new words I add to Anki (i.e. stick to things which I can't figure out on my own and look really interesting and/or useful, or have caused me trouble when trying to use them actively)

I just need to turn all of that into a new routine/habit.
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Montmorency
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Re: gsbod's language log (DE/FR/JA/KO)

Postby Montmorency » Sun Nov 15, 2015 11:10 pm

gsbod wrote:I'm getting too bogged down with German vocabulary and I'm trying to figure out what to do about it. For the last year, I've taken a pretty consistent approach to vocabulary study, by making and reviewing Anki flashcards based mostly on unknown words I've encountered in learner materials, but also occasional words that have let me down when trying to speak or write German. Combined with words I am picking up incidentally from listening to music and reading with my Kindle, i.e. words I am learning without even trying, my vocabulary, both active and passive, is pretty strong compared to my overall level.

On the one hand, as a language learner, you can never known enough vocabulary. On the other hand, I am running the risk of turning into one of those people that can pull pretty arcane words out of the hat in their target language, but consistently screws up with basic grammar patterns or making small talk.

I don't exactly want to throw the baby out of the bathwater when it comes to vocabulary, but I am wondering how to change my routine (actually, it's been so consistent for so long now, it's more like a habit) in order to change the emphasis and start working consistently on the basic grammatical problems I am having rather than just learning more and more vocabulary, which in the long run may be useful, but is not solving my more immediate problems with the language.


Hello again gsbod,

It sounds like you've been going great guns with your German reading, and I'd encourage you to capitalise on this success and carry on doing as much reading as you can comfortably fit in. You talk about your difficulties with grammar, and from some things you have said, I think your problem may be in producing what are considered to be grammatical sentences, i.e. "active" grammar. However, if you can get through a 640 page book and not get a headache or mental indigestion, then your "passive" grammar must be enough to let you understand what is going on. So the more exposure you can get to native material, both written and aural, the better. While it's good to dip into a grammar book from time to time, I don't think you actually need to get too hung up on it, so long as you have the basics down. I mean, for example,, you must know by now the basics of gender, articles, and something about cases. You will know how to form the perfect tense, and will have been exposed to plenty of uses of the preterite (aka imperfect) in that book you have just finished. Maybe not so much the future, but that is fairly straightforward.

People make a big deal about the subjunctive/Konjunktive, but in practice, even that isn't as bad as it can seem, and not something to worry overmuch about at this stage. Gradually learn to recognise them when you read them and when you hear them (you will probably not meet it in speech as often as in writing), but don't worry at the moment if you can't produce it yourself. It will come.

Probably the single most important grammatical point (other than the absolute "basics" as above) that an English learner of German has to learn is the concept of a clause, and the idea of main clauses and subordinate clauses, and what happens in German which is different to English. (See also: relative clauses). Have a look to see what Martin Durrell has to say about this and understand it as well as you can, and then go back to reading and see if you can spot this in action, and then just enjoy the process and don't worry. But if it is still confusing then go back to the grammar book for a refresher ... but don't let yourself get too hung up on it.

And while you are reading, as well as watching out for clauses, look out for endings of words, and pay attention to them (without worrying about them). S_allard in another thread said an interesting thing which is that skills we consider to be passive (i.e. reading and listening) are not really passive, or they shouldn't be, or needn't be). We should be reading and listening attentively.

And on the subject of reading, if you have finished one book, you will want to be starting another, right? You might want to think about some books originally written in German. One author often suggested to learners is Heinrich Böll. He's written books of short stories and many novels, and I think his German is considered to be relatively straightforward. If you'd like something light-hearted I can recommend Erich Kästner. He is known as a children's author (most famously for "Emil und die Detektive"), but also wrote books for adults, e.g. "Fabian", and two I particularly like: "Der Kleine Grenzverkehr" and "Drei Männer im Schnee". I just found this which helps explain Kästner better than I could: http://www.readliterature.com/R_grenzverkehr.htm

However, I don't know if Kästner is available in Kindle form. I'd be surprised if Böll wasn't (and you can often get translations of the more popular Böll works).
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gsbod
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Re: gsbod's language log (DE/FR/JA/KO)

Postby gsbod » Tue Nov 17, 2015 9:32 pm

Montmorency, you are right, my grammar problems are with production rather than comprehension. The kind of problems I have with comprehension are generally either when I lose track of what case is being used (lazy reading) or making sense of constructions where lots of verbs turn up together in the same clause. It's a minor issue for me right now though.

As far as production goes, I've got a good overview now of how everything ought to work together in theory. The problem I am having is getting the right words out of my mouth in the right order without taking too long to think about it. I also make persistent errors with things like: using pronouns with the right gender, sticking the verb in the right place, using the right auxiliary verb, and conjugating correctly, particularly when the verb has ended up at the other end of the sentence to the subject. I also am persistently self-correcting on all of these things, because as soon as these errors fall out of my mouth, I can already hear that it's wrong, but that just makes me speak even less fluently! Plus there's the other stuff I'm not even expecting myself to get right all the time yet, like using articles in the right gender and declining adjectives correctly (the problem here is also gender, of course).

I think I already know what I need to do, and that is practice. Speak more, write more, work through some drills. Nothing groundbreaking, but it's still beyond the comfort zone of what I normally do.

By the way, I had no idea that people made a fuss over the subjunctive in German. Using Konjunktiv II in conditionals or polite requests is no big deal at all. And I can at least recognise Konjunktiv I in my reading, although I'm in no hurry to worry about using it myself yet.

Thank you for the reading recommendations too. I am currently half way through reading Couchsurfing im Iran, but I've sent a few samples across to my Kindle to take a look at when I'm deciding what to read next.
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