Pir(anha)'s Tank

Continue or start your personal language log here, including logs for challenge participants
User avatar
Jar-Ptitsa
Brown Belt
Posts: 1000
Joined: Sun Jul 19, 2015 1:13 pm
Location: London
Languages: Belgian French (N)

I can speak: Dutch, German, English, Spanish and understand Italian, Portuguese, Wallonian, Afrikaans, but not always correctly.
x 652

Re: Pir(anha)'s Tank

Postby Jar-Ptitsa » Tue Sep 01, 2015 4:52 pm

pir wrote:
vogeltje wrote:Hi Pir

Your avatar is beautiful. Can you make this origami bird?

Thank you! Yes, I can. I have made quite a few. It's called a 折り鶴 (おりずる、orizuru) in Japanese. There are instructions here, if you'd like to try it yourself, it's easy: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... ki.svg.png


Oh great! Thanks for the link. Yes, I will try it myself.
0 x
-w- I am Jar-ptitsa and my Hawaiian name is ʻā ʻaia. Please correct my mistakes in all the languages. Thank you very much.
: 1 / 50 Spanish grammar
: 5 / 50 Spanish vocabulary

User avatar
pir
Orange Belt
Posts: 174
Joined: Fri Aug 07, 2015 7:24 am
Location: BC, Canada
Languages: Groks fluently: English, German
Dutch (C2~)
Swedish (B2~ on hold)
Romanian (B1~ on hold)
Swahili, Wolof, Esperanto, Russian (A1 on hold)
Studies: French (B1~), Japanese (A1), Spanish (A0)
~ means ++passive than active knowledge.

Corrections: YES!
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=1132
x 508
Contact:

Re: Pir(anha)'s Tank

Postby pir » Wed Sep 02, 2015 4:44 am

tomgosse wrote:The French In Action videos can also be found at the web site of Middlebury College. They also have the audio files that are needed to use the workbook. You do have to register, but it is free. http://sites.middlebury.edu/french-action/

Great, thanks a lot! The workbooks can be found used, so that won't be too expensive. I might just spring for that, because I really like the tone of the course much better than everything else I've tried so far.
0 x

User avatar
Jar-Ptitsa
Brown Belt
Posts: 1000
Joined: Sun Jul 19, 2015 1:13 pm
Location: London
Languages: Belgian French (N)

I can speak: Dutch, German, English, Spanish and understand Italian, Portuguese, Wallonian, Afrikaans, but not always correctly.
x 652

Re: Pir(anha)'s Tank

Postby Jar-Ptitsa » Sat Sep 05, 2015 3:03 pm

vogeltje wrote:
pir wrote:
vogeltje wrote:Hi Pir

Your avatar is beautiful. Can you make this origami bird?

Thank you! Yes, I can. I have made quite a few. It's called a 折り鶴 (おりずる、orizuru) in Japanese. There are instructions here, if you'd like to try it yourself, it's easy: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... ki.svg.png


Oh great! Thanks for the link. Yes, I will try it myself.



Hi Pir

I've made two orizuru:

Image
3 x
-w- I am Jar-ptitsa and my Hawaiian name is ʻā ʻaia. Please correct my mistakes in all the languages. Thank you very much.
: 1 / 50 Spanish grammar
: 5 / 50 Spanish vocabulary

User avatar
pir
Orange Belt
Posts: 174
Joined: Fri Aug 07, 2015 7:24 am
Location: BC, Canada
Languages: Groks fluently: English, German
Dutch (C2~)
Swedish (B2~ on hold)
Romanian (B1~ on hold)
Swahili, Wolof, Esperanto, Russian (A1 on hold)
Studies: French (B1~), Japanese (A1), Spanish (A0)
~ means ++passive than active knowledge.

Corrections: YES!
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=1132
x 508
Contact:

Re: Pir(anha)'s Tank

Postby pir » Sat Sep 05, 2015 10:22 pm

vogeltje wrote:I've made two orizuru:]

Oh, how cool! They are beautiful.

I'm sure Sadako would have liked these. I found out about orizuru through her story.
1 x

User avatar
Jar-Ptitsa
Brown Belt
Posts: 1000
Joined: Sun Jul 19, 2015 1:13 pm
Location: London
Languages: Belgian French (N)

I can speak: Dutch, German, English, Spanish and understand Italian, Portuguese, Wallonian, Afrikaans, but not always correctly.
x 652

Re: Pir(anha)'s Tank

Postby Jar-Ptitsa » Sun Sep 06, 2015 10:49 am

pir wrote:
vogeltje wrote:I've made two orizuru:]

Oh, how cool! They are beautiful.

I'm sure Sadako would have liked these. I found out about orizuru through her story.


It's so sad that Sadako died when she was so young, it's good that she isn't forgotten. Yes, I think that she would have liked these.

I like your log's name. Good luck with your languages, I have got the same Spanish book, the one by Madrigal and Warhol.
1 x
-w- I am Jar-ptitsa and my Hawaiian name is ʻā ʻaia. Please correct my mistakes in all the languages. Thank you very much.
: 1 / 50 Spanish grammar
: 5 / 50 Spanish vocabulary

User avatar
pir
Orange Belt
Posts: 174
Joined: Fri Aug 07, 2015 7:24 am
Location: BC, Canada
Languages: Groks fluently: English, German
Dutch (C2~)
Swedish (B2~ on hold)
Romanian (B1~ on hold)
Swahili, Wolof, Esperanto, Russian (A1 on hold)
Studies: French (B1~), Japanese (A1), Spanish (A0)
~ means ++passive than active knowledge.

Corrections: YES!
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=1132
x 508
Contact:

Week ending September 06

Postby pir » Mon Sep 07, 2015 11:18 pm

Another decent study week, though I was kinda worn out from work. Which is about to get much worse for the next 4 weeks.

French: Continued down the reverse Duolingo tree. Am getting annoyed with it because it turns out the French isn't any more idiomatic than the English on the other side, and I am now doubting the efficacy. I am reading all the comment threads so I don't pick up something egregiously wrong, and I write down any idiomatic expressions that are offered, so maybe it is worth it. But I am not sure -- there is also nobody in that tree who is a reliable presence and a fluent French-and-English speaker who knows grammar, there are more random French speakers, and they're not as reliable or not as good at explaining -- I don't really appreciate "that's just how it is" reasoning. Sure, sometimes that is true, but most of the time there are actual rules in play, it's just that most native speakers don't know their own grammar. And reading the comment threads is tiring, there is a lot of junk in there that I don't actually care about. I try to explain some English grammar in French, and it helps with my French production, but man, am I still handicapped -- need to write on a level far below my usual vernacular, and that's hard.

I am "feeling" French a bit more now, and maybe the reverse tree is good for that because while I am still very insecure, I catch a number of non-colloquial things myself now, because they "don't sound right". Which cheers me up; I might be coming out of the really clumsy phase of language acquisition.

I'll continue Duolingo for another week, but I might give this up in favour of writing my own sentences, maybe at the same time as practicing the production of cognates.

Watched another three episodes of French in Action. Downloaded all the audio from Middlebury College's website, and located cheap copies of the workbooks. Still like it. Also started cognate exercises based on Margarita Madrigal's schemes in Madrigal's Magic Key to Spanish. There is a French equivalent for that, but it's out of print and prohibitively expensive, so I am rolling my own for French. Rolling my own is always useful because I end up with more production even just designing the exercises.

Japanese: Slow progress through the Hiragana with Vocabulary course on Memrise. Am at 163 / 199 words. That's all, which is pitiful, but I didn't have the energy to watch anime or a drama. I played around with writing, could not get myself to buckle down.

Spanish: Slow progress on Memrise's Spanish A1 course, 50 / 1793 words. Created more Anki cards from student dictionary -- I mostly do that because I learn as much from creating the cards as I do from studying them afterwards. Did some cognate conversion exercises, but not seriously enough; by the time I get around to Spanish every day, I am pretty beat. I did read some more grammar, and I've figured the basic stuff out now -- except I need to put it into action. I might adapt the cognate exercises to that, but maybe that would overload them.

Did write daily diary entries in French and Spanish, but I should probably write those in the mornings instead of the evenings, then they would get less short shrift. Racked up ~130,000 points on Memrise, half of which was Duolingo review of French vocab, to make sure that all sticks.
1 x

User avatar
pir
Orange Belt
Posts: 174
Joined: Fri Aug 07, 2015 7:24 am
Location: BC, Canada
Languages: Groks fluently: English, German
Dutch (C2~)
Swedish (B2~ on hold)
Romanian (B1~ on hold)
Swahili, Wolof, Esperanto, Russian (A1 on hold)
Studies: French (B1~), Japanese (A1), Spanish (A0)
~ means ++passive than active knowledge.

Corrections: YES!
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=1132
x 508
Contact:

Musings on L2 effects on L3+

Postby pir » Wed Sep 16, 2015 12:18 am

There is a thread about this: viewtopic.php?f=14, but the OP stipulates all sorts of guidelines which I can't follow, so I'll work it out here first, and transfer conclusions, if any, over there.

My language study has never been orderly and systematic enough to compare in a quantitative manner -- some languages I've learned immersed, some I have learned without ever being interested in speaking them at all. I do, however, have a subjective view of which things have become easier for me. That might not be useful to the OP, but maybe somebody else will find it so.

I took to my L2 (English) like a fish to water in my first year of secondary school. Everybody was "wow, you must have a talent for languages", I was that good at it (now I think the talent argument is mostly nonsense). And I fell in love with languages. But then I didn't find my L3 (French) easier to learn than my L2. At all. The problem with using it as a proper counter-example to some spill-over effect from one's L2 is that 1. I started them both in secondary school, and I wasn't at a solid B2 in my L2 yet. 2. Also my L3 teacher sucked like a black hole, and almost single-handedly put me off languages altogether. 3. I didn't know much about self-directed study yet; that sort of thing wasn't encouraged, so I was at the mercy of whatever teaching methods were imposed by the various teachers. I struggled with my L3 in school -- not grade-wise; I did fine, but I never felt the way about it that I felt about my L2; I didn't connect with it. For a while there I thought "so much for talent", and then I took my L4 to test that theory (it restored my confidence). Years later I struggled with L3 again in its country of origin. Only now, decades later, when I restarted my L3 once more because I am stubborn that way and didn't want an abysmal failure on my record, am I progressing solidly, as I would expect from all the learning I have done in between. It is much easier now, so I am laying the early failure at the feet of my teacher, who sucked away whatever positive effect the L2 might have had otherwise. Cognates alone are huge, and we made almost no use of them.

My L4 (Russian) was the first completely unrelated language I learned, but I only got to A1 in it (again, high school, I ran out of time and then life interfered). I didn't feel any positive spill-over from my L2, which isn't to say there wasn't any, but I just was not aware of it and now I don't remember much about that time anymore. Learning my first foreign writing system was fun though. I had the best time just reading Russian out loud after I had learned Cyrillic, without understanding anything. That was also when I secretly smoked Gitanes. Ah, youth.

My L5 (Romanian) is related both to my L3 and L4, more to L3 with influences from L4. I was exposed to it on holiday, and then studied it back at home in between several more holidays during which I basically immersed myself. It took me several years (3? 4?) to get to B1. I never concentrated on it heavily except during the immersion periods of several weeks each. I loved the country; if it had not been under a repressive regime, I would have moved there. I slowly started developing my own ways of teaching myself, jettisoning much of what I learned in high school. I began to see the value of immersion; I learned so much faster when I was in-country. I started to experiment with pseudo-immersion.

I learned my L6 (Dutch) (closely related to L1 and L2) by full immersion while being actively engaged in acquiring it pretty much every day, quite rapidly, less than 2 years to C2 in all 4 basic skills; fastest I have ever learned a language (not counting Esperanto which will probably end up faster when I pick it up again). What I primarily learned was: relatedness is powerful, immersion is totally amazing, I can learn a language better without teachers than with even good teachers if I immerse myself and personalize my studies.

I learned my L7 (Swedish) fully immersed and engaged in less than a year to B2. It is related to my L1 and L6. This added further confirmation of what I had learned during learning my L6 -- those newly acquired study methods worked just as well for a less related language. After I convinced the Swedes that really, I wanted to learn Swedish no matter how well we got on in English, that is.

Skip over a bunch of A1 level language dabbling during which I stopped counting. Most of my later life had nothing much to do with languages, but I moved across the Atlantic and acquired native-like fluency in my L2. I have no idea how long that actually took. Probably because there wasn't actually a moment when I felt I got there, it snuck in under the radar. I've felt native for several decades now. More native than in my L1, which I speak so rarely that it actually takes some time now to activate it (speech only, reading is still just fine).

My current completely unrelated language is Japanese, in which my listening skills are at a solid A1, but other skills are limping behind; I have just started learning to read and write. I hadn't planned on Japanese at all, and consequently this was even more disorganized than ever; I just acquired it from listening to original anime and drama which one of my partners got me interested in. Any attempts at learning it in a more organized fashion before now failed mostly because my depression had become so debilitating that I've had to first new ways of learning because many of the old ways no longer make it happen.

Japanese in general is usually classified as one of the hardest languages for speakers with my background. And yet I can't say I am finding it particularly hard. Sure, the writing systems are different, but that doesn't feel "harder" per se, it just requires more memory work up front and much much more writing practice just for the writing itself, not as a memory aid. The grammar itself at this stage seems (maybe deceptively) simple. I do perceive some benefit from other languages in Japanese -- that I've encountered SOV before helps because that seems to require some mindset switching and I already know how to do that; that I've learned another non-Latin writing system helps, even though Cyrillic is child's play in comparison with kana and kanji.

I generally perceive little cost from interference at all. Unless the mere fact that there is more than one language I pay attention to counts as interference; I don't see it that way -- anything I engage with at all takes away time and energy from everything else. Unrelated languages do not interfere for me; related ones will interfere if I am learning the same things at the same time; but If I have a head start in one, I won't get confused. Confusion is mostly about vocabulary anyway, I don't seem to get confused about grammar. One area I've noticed as problematic: using the same alphabet is a hindrance when one language has pronunciation that differs a lot in only a few areas from another language I already know. So, French was no problem, but Gaeilge was -- I'd much prefer if it used a different alphabet. I've since been wondering whether it might have helped if I used Gaelic type during the initial stages, whether that would make it sufficiently different. When approaching a new language I used to always start with reading after a basic overview and practice of pronunciation, after that experience I shifted to drilling pronunciation seriously first. That works better even for languages where I don't have an initial pronunciation problem.

Direct benefits IMO definitely occur between related languages -- I am currently studying French and Spanish. Spanish massively benefits both from cognates (more vocabulary faster, which means that two months in I can already read simple native materials), and from similar grammar. I'm thinking of picking up Italian once my Spanish is at A2 because this effect is too good to not exploit.

Most benefits I see come from heaving learned another language to fluency, and having learned how to learn at different stages in the process. I was positively motivated by my early success with my L2, and even the failure of the L3 didn't do entirely away with that. I've tried a lot of different methods, I've figured out what works, what always fails because it's just not suited for me, what fails temporarily, like when I am stressed, what works at the very beginning, and what works better once one can read well enough. I am no longer thrown by small set-backs and by plateaus; I know how to take the former in stride, and break the latter.
1 x

User avatar
pir
Orange Belt
Posts: 174
Joined: Fri Aug 07, 2015 7:24 am
Location: BC, Canada
Languages: Groks fluently: English, German
Dutch (C2~)
Swedish (B2~ on hold)
Romanian (B1~ on hold)
Swahili, Wolof, Esperanto, Russian (A1 on hold)
Studies: French (B1~), Japanese (A1), Spanish (A0)
~ means ++passive than active knowledge.

Corrections: YES!
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=1132
x 508
Contact:

Week ending September 20

Postby pir » Mon Sep 21, 2015 8:01 am

Very little time for studying, but maintained my streak on Memrise (80) and Duolingo (77). Forgot to check how many points I had on Memrise before the week rolled over, but I'm not sure I even made it to 100,000.

French: Did not watch any French TV, nor any French in Action. Did listen to the CBC in French while working on the boat, but not much of that sinks in, power tools and other stuff distract most of the time. I figured these last weeks before launch were gonna be exhausting, and they are. Continued the Memrise courses and the Duolingo reverse French tree. Keep trying to write grammar advice for native French speakers learning English in the comments, but man, I sound broken.

Spanish: Continuing Spanish A1 on Memrise. Nothing else.

Japanese: Finished my Hiragana with Vocabulary course! The last 10 items were entire short sentences, and I struggled with はちじにがっこうにいく, but had no trouble with ぎんこうへいく, これをおねがいします, それはりんごではない, and especially そぼのかばではない (not grandmother's hippo).

Launch some time between 09-27 and 10-04. Tides look good most days, so it mostly depends on the boat mover. Je suis vachement content.
1 x

User avatar
Montmorency
Brown Belt
Posts: 1035
Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2015 3:01 pm
Location: Oxfordshire, UK
Languages: English (Native)
Maintaining: German (active skills lapsed somewhat).
Studying: Welsh (advanced beginner/intermediate);
Dabbling/Beginner: Czech

Back-burner: Spanish (intermediate) Norwegian (bit more than beginner) Danish (beginner).

Have studied: Latin, French, Italian, Dutch; OT Hebrew (briefly) NT Greek (briefly).
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=1429
x 1184

Re: Pir(anha)'s Tank

Postby Montmorency » Thu Oct 22, 2015 11:03 pm

@Pir:

I have been looking for clues, but I don't think you actually say what your L1 is (and it's not clear (to me anyway) from your profile).

From your comment about Dutch early on, I'm guessing that it might be German. Is that correct?
0 x

User avatar
pir
Orange Belt
Posts: 174
Joined: Fri Aug 07, 2015 7:24 am
Location: BC, Canada
Languages: Groks fluently: English, German
Dutch (C2~)
Swedish (B2~ on hold)
Romanian (B1~ on hold)
Swahili, Wolof, Esperanto, Russian (A1 on hold)
Studies: French (B1~), Japanese (A1), Spanish (A0)
~ means ++passive than active knowledge.

Corrections: YES!
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=1132
x 508
Contact:

Week ending October 25

Postby pir » Mon Oct 26, 2015 8:07 pm

No entries for the last 4 weeks, because not much study; still too busy with work on the boat (but definitely in the final stretch; did not launch at the expected time because the mechanic became quite ill; he has just now recovered and I am not sure when he'll get around to the final checks).

Continuing the minimum to maintain my streaks on Memrise (95 days, French A1, Spanish A1) and Duolingo (109 days, French reverse tree). Stopped watching French in Action and any other French video for now; just too bloody tired by the time I come home. Gave up my katakana streak on Memrise because the course consists mostly of sound effect vocabulary, and I couldn't care less right now -- maybe if I was reading manga at this point that would help. I have no memory for sound effects and it's frustrating me. I might mark all the vocab I don't care for as "ignore" so I can at least progress with the syllabary itself. Am only learning what kanji embed themselves in my memory from repeated bathroom reading.

Doing hardly any writing at all, just a couple posts on French grammar in Duolingo comment threads. Did more than average French reading during the election, however.

Really, I'm almost standing still, but it's ok, as long as I keep an oar in while I am busy.
Last edited by pir on Mon Oct 26, 2015 8:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
1 x


Return to “Language logs”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests