alaart's log (Chinese, Korean)

[alaart]

, had many mistakes today while speaking Japanese. Just because I didn't speak for a couple days, man.. watched more netflix and studied Vocabulary in Anki as usual.

More interestingly, the 6WC log once again inspired me, and I thought about how much I have spent studying languages in my life, and I made a rough estimate. I recalled what activities I did for how long over the last years, and since I usually studied regularly, and mostly did activities in blocks of weeks or months (watching series, joining classes, language exchange over several months), it is actually possible to estimate. The estimate is probably accurate for Chinese and Spanish, for the others it is a bit more vague, if anything the numbers should be too low, since I could have forgotten some activities.

Classes: 750h
Textbook Study: 5h
Reading: 80h

Videos: 40h
Social: 250h
Immersion-based conversations: 150h
-------
1275h in 8 years

The classes are regular University classes, not language classes. Basically I was just fully immersed in the country, and thanks to German and Dutch being close it somehow worked.

Classes: 158h
Private Lessons: 10h
Homework: 40h

Textbook: 50h
PortuguesePod101: 50h
Duolingo: 90h
Reading: 5h
Anki: 330h

Music translation: 75h
Videos: 275h

Language exchange: 108h
Social: 40h
-------
1231h in 5 years

Portuguese, is the first language I studied in my free time, I tried out various things. What ended up working for me was a mix between video-input, language Exchange - and repetition in Anki. I only took lessons after I already studied for 9 months, but then I just took regular University classes as a side subject.

Classes: 535h [385h (Germany) , 150h (Japan)]
Private Lessons: 5h
Homework: 160h [90h (Germany) , 70h (Japan)]
Kanji learning: 270h [Heisig remembering the kanji, took about 1 year and 3 months - had some breaks in between intensive learning phases]
Writing Practice: 100h

Reading: 40h
Grammar: 100h
LingQ: 30h
Anki: 1020 [270 (1. Sem), 360 (2. Sem), 150 (3. Sem), 0 (4-6 Sem, I did mainly Chinese), 270 (Japan)]

Song Translation: 80h
Gaming (RPG): 25h
Videos: 270h [Drama: 160h, youtube: 40h, Anime: 70h]


Language Exchange: 388h [67h (1. Sem), 180h (2. Sem+Vac), 50h (3. Sem), 39h (4. Sem), 30h (5. Sem), 22h (6. Sem)]
Social: 252h [26 (1. Sem), 100 (2. Sem), 26 (3. Sem), 20 (combined 4., 5., 6. Sem.), 80h (Japan)]
Immersion-based conversations: 50h

-------
3325h in 3,5 years

Classes: 910h
Homework: 660h
Writing: 80h
Learning Characters: 100h

yabla: 300h
LingQ: 15h
Anki: 585h

Language exchange: 387h [36 (1. Sem), 96 (2. Sem), 60 (3. Sem), 150 (4. Sem) , 45 (JP)]
Social: 70h
Immersion-based conversations: 3h
-------
3110h in 2,5 years

So if we compare Japanese and Chinese: The Chinese classes were a lot harder, with up to 16 classes per week, daily homework and assignments. It was more like a drill. The Japanese classes, a lot more freedom. Slow, in deep explanation, only very short homework. Chinese profited from having learned the Characters before in Japanese of course. But despite all that, my Japanese is a lot better than my Chinese, and I think the difference may just stem from social life, because I have Japanese friends, but Chinese/Taiwanese friends are rare indeed. I actually was surprised that the number of hours is basically the same while the level is not.

Classes: 45h
Textbook study: 20h
Videos: 3h
Language exchange: 10h
Social: 3h
-------
81h in 6month

Just for the sake of completion, didn't put in much time.

The only real comparison I have to those language numbers is guitar playing, for which I made an estimate too, I probably played around 4500h of guitar over 12 years. So, interesting to see that no language even comes close to that

From all the languages, Dutch is still the strongest (by far).

They say you need around 10.000 hours for Chinese or Japanese? If that is true, good lord!

[alaart]

Have been watching more series, and I have been playing Crosscode in Japanese. My last attempt was around a year ago, also in semester break. My reading got better, but still lacking.

I have been creating a list of all the Kanji I encounter of which recognition is slow, or which don't stick - or even new ones while playing the game. I then worked on them in detail, recalled the Heisig story, and write them for a couple days - tedious, but working on Kanji is necessary, and highly rewarding while I focus on reading.

Will try to continue the game a bit, maybe at least one Chapter or region, it is an RPG with a lot of text. The vocabulary is different from what I normally consume, and you need a lot of words for nature, objects and animals.

As always I studied all new words, crossed 5000 new Anki cards (since 5.2019) - so vocabulary is going well.

Oh, I spoke Chinese this week, about 2 hours. I had to cancel my trip to Tokyo, due to my friends there being all panic about Coronavirus prevention measures, but I'll still visit a friend in Kamakura.

All that effort of using drama, games or Anime have made me kind of lazy... I feel like a 14th year old again consuming media as he pleases, and not giving a shit about anything else. I guess Japanese has that kind of pull, but I feel it makes me dull and unambitious. I'm tempted to start something new, that gives me some sparks, like learning Korean.. will try to ignore the feeling for now, but if it won't go away I maybe will.

[alaart]

I spoke more Chinese, and played more CrossCode in Japanese.

I traveled to Kamakura by the local train, and visited an old friend living in Japan for 4 years now, I did some sightseeing and traveled back. My Japanese was not good enough to read the explanations at the temples by the way :/. I studied the JLPT2 grammar book I bought on the train ride.. Oh dear, I don't like the book. It doesn't really work for me. The explanation is like: This conjunction comes always before words of that category, and such and such. - not something I'm conscious about at all :/. The book is not really detailed, it is mostly just an exercise book for the JLPT. Maybe useful, if you have already studied the grammar elsewhere - I'll come back to it eventually.

Overall not too much progress, but I have other things to do, I also I slacked on writing Kanji..

[Gustav Aschenbach]

I would focus on Japanese. You're in the country right now and this opportunity won't come back so easily.

[alaart]

I'm now working through the second JLPT3 series from nihongo no mori, and I spent quite some time today studying Kanji. The Kanji are those, who appeared while playing CrossCode.

Some Kanji out of my study folder: [埃, 遂, 恵, 衛, 癖, 峻, 僻, 汝, 惣, 灼, 賑, 劫, 冠, 謀, 喪, 茂, 盟, 捜, 埠, 痕] - I wanted to show you: Out of this set I studied today, there are quite some Kanji, which are not included in the standard 2200, and I actually was surprised that I haven't studied them before. So no wonder I have trouble reading. - guess i have to keep doing this and slowly fill the gaps.

Can someone explain 汝 to me? It's the way like a sort of hologram of ancient gods addresses me (a standard rpg adventurer) in the game. How it is read? jisho.org lists several readings all meaning "you", so I'm not sure which is right. Unfortunately I didn't make a screenshot, and it was in a cut scene, so no way to recreate the dialogue.

I would focus on Japanese. You're in the country right now and this opportunity won't come back so easily.

It's strange, but I guess I enjoy A1 learning more than B1 learning. Yes, I'll definitely will focusing on Japanese - but I'll be tempted, since I'm with a lot of exchange students, and also I have to choose courses for the new semester in two weeks (and I'm at a foreign language university, there are no courses besides languages )

[Gustav Aschenbach]

Can someone explain 汝 to me? It's the way like a sort of hologram of ancient gods addresses me (a standard rpg adventurer) in the game. How it is read? jisho.org lists several readings all meaning "you", so I'm not sure which is right. Unfortunately I didn't make a screenshot, and it was in a cut scene, so no way to recreate the dialogue.

It should be nanji. It's the bungo-style word for "you":

https://kwhazit.ucoz.net/ranma/classical.html

I have to choose courses for the new semester in two weeks (and I'm at a foreign language university, there are no courses besides languages )

Sounds like a lot of fun to me
_____________________________________________

PS: By the way, the bible is an excellent source for bungo like your 汝. Here's an example, I will try to analyze the morphology for you:

Bungo:
ヱホバ言たまひけるは誰が汝の裸なるを汝に告しや汝は我が汝に食ふなかれと命じたる樹の果を食ひたりしや
Yefoba ifi.tamafi.ker.u=fa ta=ga nandi=no hadaka=nar.u=wo nandi=ni tuge.si=ya nandi=fa wa=ga nandi=ni kuraf.u=na.kar.e=to meizi.tar.u ki=no mi=wo kurafi.tari.si=ya
(https://ja.wikisource.org/wiki/%E5%89%B5%E4%B8%96%E8%A8%98(%E6%96%87%E8%AA%9E%E8%A8%B3)#%E7%AC%AC3%E7%AB%A0)

Kougo:
神は言われた、「あなたが裸であるのを、だれが知らせたのか。食べるなと、命じておいた木から、あなたは取って食べたのか」。
Kami=wa iw.are.ta, "anata=ga hadaka=de ar.u=no=o, dare=ga sir.ase.ta=no=ka. tabe.ru=na=to, meizi.te oita ki=kara, anata=wa tot.te tabe.ta=no=ka".
(https://ja.wikisource.org/wiki/%E5%89%B5%E4%B8%96%E8%A8%98(%E5%8F%A3%E8%AA%9E%E8%A8%B3)#%E7%AC%AC3%E7%AB%A0)

English:
And he said, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?”
(https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+3&version=NIV)



Edit: Corrected a mistake in my bungo analysis: -si as in tuge.si and kurafi.tari.si is not a particle (=), but a verbal flexion (past tense).

[alaart]

Can someone explain 汝 to me? It's the way like a sort of hologram of ancient gods addresses me (a standard rpg adventurer) in the game. How it is read? jisho.org lists several readings all meaning "you", so I'm not sure which is right. Unfortunately I didn't make a screenshot, and it was in a cut scene, so no way to recreate the dialogue.

It should be nanji. It's the bungo-style word for "you":

https://kwhazit.ucoz.net/ranma/classical.html [...]

Thanks for the link and the examples. In your bible quote, I'm familiar with 告 and 樹 for example, because that is the way in Chinese you would say "tell" (告訴) and "tree". It really is interesting, and probably not too hard to learn with Chinese as a background. I still have a classical Chinese course I could take when I'm back in Germany, that probably would also help with this.

In the game a lot of the vocabulary from those ancient speaker are single-Kanji verbs, where I would have expect double Kanji words. I don't think he speaks proper classical Japanese, rather some words are just inserted to give his dialogue some flavor.




Anyway for now: I added too many vocabulary and was drowning in Anki recaps. Also my hand started to hurt from playing the game - which is a common health problem I have, and why I usually don't play games. So I think I'll stop the Japanese input phase I had for the last two month, and will focus on Grammar for a while.
Ah, I went to my Anki vocabularies and reviewed a lot of Kanji from words I didn't understand the Kanji from. So my reading is getting better.

And: I'm preparing for Korean. I will take the beginner course next Semester, I made some Korean friends recently, so it is a nice chance to use. I already told everybody, so there is no way back - if someone has beginner resources, feel free to tell me. I only plan to invest a small amount, like 30-60minutes per day, so there should still be enough hours for Japanese. Chinese will be on hold, but I will study it full time again in summer - once I return to Germany.

[Gustav Aschenbach]

Thanks for the link and the examples. In your bible quote, I'm familiar with 告 and 樹 for example, because that is the way in Chinese you would say "tell" (告訴) and "tree". It really is interesting, and probably not too hard to learn with Chinese as a background. I still have a classical Chinese course I could take when I'm back in Germany, that probably would also help with this.

Yes absolutely, Chinese definitely helps with Japanese (be it with contemporary or classical Japanese). And if you can read classical Chinese, you can also read kañbuñ. It might actually be "easier" to directly study classical Chinese than to take the detour via kañbuñ (I'm not saying that classical Chinese is easy-peasy, mind you ).

Classical Japanese grammar is a bit harder than contemporary Japanese grammar. There are more nuances. On the other hand, if you master classical Japanese, you'll understand a good portion of the "advanced" Japanese grammar points for JLPT N1, as they cover many archaisms.

In the game a lot of the vocabulary from those ancient speaker are single-Kanji verbs, where I would have expect double Kanji words. I don't think he speaks proper classical Japanese, rather some words are just inserted to give his dialogue some flavor.

You're right. It is actually very common to insert archaisms to come across antiquated. The word nañzi (or nañdi, depending on the language stage, but the contemporary pronunciation in movies etc. is always nañzi/なんじ/[naN\dz\i]) is a good example. It is not used anymore, but completely understandable. A German equivalent might be the use of Er instead of Du or Sie (but I'm not sure about the nuance, I'm not a buñgo/kobuñ expert, after all).

And now you made me want to study Japanese and/or Chinese again...

[alaart]

Due to corona virus, we have a postponed semester start, this means I have another full month to take care of things and study.. - but also that I have less time in summer, so I'll have to make it count.

Didn't study much - no new vocabularies, just Anki reviews. Watched 9 episodes of the Anime "One Punch Man" in Japanese, without pausing and studying unknown words, just watched it casually - cool that I can do that by now. I took it easy for a couple days due to a breakup. But already motivation is back, started to do work out and playing guitar.

On Korean, I started learning Hangul, I know all the characters now, but I'm still unsure about all the rules concerning them. I used this series (still have the last 3 videos left), duolingo and Wikipedia. When I finish the alphabet I'll try to get into pronunciation next.

Wanted to do some Skype calls with contacts around the worlds in various languages, but the connection in my flat is really bad.. lack of proper internet - that's just not cool while staying at home all the time. Hope it gets better soon. I'll try talking to a Korean friend once I get the pronunciation and some basic vocabulary down too.

[alaart]

I did the pronunciation guide from Koreanclass101, and I'm almost finished with the one from Korean From Zero.

I also finished up studying all the rules for Hangul. For both I'm far from mastery, but I will just start studying the language now - and recap, recall and review as I go.

Started adding vocabulary in Anki, if I recognize a cognate I'll add the Japanese/Chinese equivalent to the card, but so far its less than expected.

My internet connection still sucks, but has been better - if I'm offline, I continue with the Japanese game. It's an rpg, so a good guideline is a quest: One quest here, one quest there - each providing a couple minutes of reading. Did a couple, but not too much. Also continued to watch a bit Anime without pausing.

Scheduled talking to a Korean friend on Monday via Skype, and plan to pronounce word lists I and letters I'll prepare there, hope the internet will play along. I feel like pronunciation really needs some focus in Korean, so I'll probably start sooner than later with language exchanges.