e.z.b's spanish log

[e.z.b.]

Hi all,

I'm new to the HTLAL forum, but I've been browsing (here and the original site) and have been super impressed by all the information out there. I recently started learning spanish & I figured I'd post my attempt here and see if I could benefit from the advice of all the other language learners out there. I'm planning a trip to Peru for the fall, and I have a lot of free time in the meantime, so I'm trying to see how much of a base I can give myself before I get there -- I plan to do a 1 week (or so) immersion class once I get over there, but I don't have time to do anything longer.

I started two weeks ago, more or less following the advice of Gabriel Wyrner in Fluent Forever. So far this has been my approach:

- I've gone through his Spanish pronunciation trainer on Anki (working on minimal pairs, pronunciation, & spelling rules)

- I've made Anki picture flaschards complete with sound bytes for all 625 of the words on his base list & have begun learning most of them -- as of tomorrow I will have been introduced to all of them, and about 5% so far are at the 'mature' stage, the rest are in the learning process but I've had no problem remembering them so far

- I'm reading Harry Potter y la Piedra Filosofal while listening to the audiolibro -- I'm almost exactly halfway through, reading more or less extensively except for looking up the occasional word. I know the books super well in english, so I'm able to understand most of what I'm reading

- I've watched the first 10 episodes of Destinos. It's a little slow, but fun!

- I just began watching Once Upon a Time dubbed in spanish. I've watched it in english, but I'm definitely finding it pretty hard to understand the rapid, castillian-accented spanish. I've been reading the English transcript before watching the episodes which helps, and I'm hoping that I'll be able to understand more with time

- I've done the first 10 units of Pimsleur which I found at my library... but have found it pretty boring

- I've spent a bit of time playing around on LyricsTraining. Hard but getting a little easier!

My plan now is to supplement the vocab to get to the 1000 most frequently used words. I'm definitely a visual learner and I'm in love with anki - I do a picture & a sentence in the target language, and it's been working really well for me so far. Quick & effective. I have a harder time motivating myself to listen to purely audio stuff, but I've heard that FSI is really good so I'm thinking I'll drop Pimsleur and start with FSI to get more bang for my buck (so to speak). I think I need to start working on more grammar stuff, so I'd love any suggestions as to the best way to go about that. Or any other advice about resources I should be taking advantage of... I have tons of time right now, so it's just a matter of finding the best ways to use it.

I figure soon I should probably start speaking to real people instead of just my computer screen, but I figure I'll wait until I have a bit more grammar under my belt so I can actually form comprehensible sentences instead of just pointing to things & naming them.

Looking forward to talking to other people who are as into language learning as I am -- everyone I know just thinks I'm crazy! Any & all advice appreciated.

e.z.b.

[James29]

Hi EZB. Your plans sound exciting. Are you only going to be in Peru for a week or is that just the amount of time you can do an immersion? I did a few of those types of trips where I went somewhere and did a week long semi-immersion course with a Spanish school. I really enjoyed it a lot. I also have a couple other questions: approximately when are you going (how many weeks do you actually have to prepare)? how would you describe your basic level? What are your goals for when you are in Peru? Are you looking at it as a step in a long journey of Spanish learning or are you looking to have some meaningful interaction and use of the language while you are there?

If your conversation level is still pretty low I'd really recommend sticking with Pimsleur. I know it is boring, but it really does work. There is a poster on this site named randomreview and he really nailed why Pimsleur is so useful. It gives you such a good solid base of not just knowing how to do basic communication, but do the essential things completely automatically in a good accent forever. Especially since you have a lot of time I'd recommend doing one lesson of Pimsleur every day (again, that might depend a bit on your current conversation ability). I had a very unique Pimsleur "test" when I had just started. The ONLY Spanish I had done was Pimsleur 1-3 and I took a trip. When I checked in to a hotel late at night the two receptionists were speaking Spanish and I had my first real Spanish encounter. It was rough, but Pimsleur really did give me the basics of what I need. I was able to check in. I was able to ask where there was a restaurant close enough to walk to. I was able to ask if there was a vending machine in the hotel. I was able to ask to borrow a CD player. I was able to sign up for the shuttle van to the airport (although this was rough and required us to play a bit of charades). I was also able to ask where a good place to go running was (I still remember not knowing the word from run so I asked for a place to go fast walking).

Anyway, my point is that my Spanish level at that time (only a few months into Spanish) was very basic, but I was able to use my Spanish and actually accomplish things. Pimsleur is very good for that type of stuff.

If you don't really need immediate satisfaction or are looking past the trip to Peru I don't think you can go wrong with what you are doing. You seem motivated and are using good resources. A lot of people criticize courses, but I think there is a lot for working through a full course. FSI is likely the best thing available and I cannot speak highly enough about it.

Also, I'm starting to really think the Paul Noble courses are quite valuable early on. I have done half of the French one and it is extremely well done. Again, depending on your level, I think it would be well worth it.

Please feel free to ask questions. There are tons of very helpful people on this site.

[iguanamon]

Welcome to the forum e.z.b! ¡Bienvenid@ al foro!

Looks like you are making rapid progress but, I fear too rapid progress can actually be harmful in deep learning. I advocate a multi-track approach, meaning using native materials as soon as practical, but I don't mean overdoing it. Have a look at my post on HTLAL.com The multi-track approach. I will be updating that here at some point. When I wrote it, heavy course/anki use was prevalent on the forum, almost to the exclusion of native materials for some learners. Now, the pendulum seems to have swung for some people to the opposite extreme.

Native materials are fun, but they should be comprehensible. Courses can be boring, because of the graduated learning aspect and repetition, but it is precisely this graduated learning that leads to acquisition. In Spanish, it's not so much vocabulary that needs to be mastered at first but verb conjugation, gender agreement and ways to phrase what it is you want to say, in other words, grammar.

James29, once again, has offered great advice. Stick with Pimsleur. Despite the course's hype, it's about teaching you to be automatic in speech and fluid, without having to translate in your head. It will also help your pronunciation to be good. Yes, it may be a bit boring, repetition has that effect, but it will indeed be useful for you. Destinos is also a good source that will gradually lead you to better listening skills and learning of what it teaches.

If you are going to go through a television series, have a look at emk's Spanish: A little subs2srs experiment. Combine this, or other native material use, with a good introductory textbook/audio course, Pimsleur and Destinos and I believe you will go farther, faster.

The only reason I mention this is because in my years on HTLAL, I have seen some raw, monolingual beginners crash and burn with heavy emphasis on native materials too early. They seem to reach a certain point and then, because they never acquire a good, basic grounding, they tend to stagnate and burn out. i don't want that to happen to you. With your demonstrated talent and willingness to engage with native materials, I feel a more focused approach would be more beneficial to you.

¡Buena suerte en tus estudios!

[e.z.b.]

Great advice, thank you both! I'm convinced re: Pimsleur, a course a day it is. 30 minutes of boring a day probably won't kill me and I definitely need the practice speaking & thinking through things aloud.

As for your questions James: My tentative plan is to be in Peru for 4-5 weeks, from early October to mid-November. So I have about 2 months to prepare. My basic level is pretty low, but improving. I never studied Spanish in school, though I did study Latin & French (though only through highschool so not to an advanced level), so the language is somewhat 'transparent', but other than that as of two weeks ago I was a complete beginner. I will say I started reading/listening to Harry Potter right at the beginning, and it's amazing how much more I can understand after 2 weeks and 625 words. As far as my goals for Peru, I suppose a little of both options -- I'm definitely looking at it as one step in a long process, but my (perhaps unrealistic) goal is to be able to communicate to some degree while I'm there. I realize that it probably won't be happening at an advanced level, but I'd like to be able to book a hotel, ask for directions, order dinner, etc. I'll definitely check out the Paul Noble courses too.

Iguanamon, thank you for the links -- they both look super helpful and I'm going to go read through them more thoroughly now. I am a bit worried about pushing things too fast and hurting my long-term learning/recall, but I also want to try and learn as much as I can before I head to Peru in 2 months. The point about the grammar makes a lot of sense, too. Along that line I've begun working my way through a grammar book ("The Everything Learning Spanish Book by Frank Zambrano, i.e. what the library had on the shelf), doing the exercises and making Anki 'word-form' cards where I have to fill in conjugated verbs, pick ser vs. estar, make adjectives agree, etc. Is there a grammar book that you would particularly recommend that'd be worth buying?

Do you guys think that I should do both the Pimsleur and FSI, or does that fall under the category of pushing things too far, too fast?

Thanks for all the feedback & useful links

[e.z.b.]

Found the answer to my question about Pimsleur & FSI on Iguanamon's post abut the multi-track approach, so never mind! It looks like I'll use those as my main two courses. Iguanamon, one quick question -- you said that you generally advise starting off with news articles, etc. instead of books in the native language. Is that just for the sake of having something shorter and more palatable? Or to avoid spending time learning the words for wand, broomstick, and owl... all of which are embedded firmly in my brain now and forever? Perhaps the answer is later down in the posts... I'm going to go read through the rest, so if it is you can just ignore the question

[iguanamon]

You can learn a lot of Spanish in two months, but you aren't going to master it in two months even if you could open your head and pour it all in. With a trip to Peru coming up soon, the main thing is to concentrate on the language you will need while there, as you said, ordering in a restaurant, buying food, booking a room, asking directions (and understanding the responses), etc. This is where Pimsleur shines. If you can get hold of Vols 1, 2 and 3 and buy a good phrasebook (like Lonely Planet's), learn how to conjugate verbs at least in the simplest tenses, if you put Harry Potter aside for now and get a good, basic textbook/audio course you will be well prepared.

As James29 said, being able to handle yourself in a tourist situation is a reachable goal and highly useful. You may not be able to discuss literature or your opinions on quantum physics but don't underestimate the usefulness and value of A2 level

Basic user A

A1 Breakthrough or beginner

Can understand and use familiar everyday expressions and very basic phrases aimed at the satisfaction of needs of a concrete type.
Can introduce him/herself and others and can ask and answer questions about personal details such as where he/she lives, people he/she knows and things he/she has.
Can interact in a simple way provided the other person talks slowly and clearly and is prepared to help.

A2 Way stage or elementary

Can understand sentences and frequently used expressions related to areas of most immediate relevance (e.g. very basic personal and family information, shopping, local geography, employment).
Can communicate in simple and routine tasks requiring a simple and direct exchange of information on familiar and routine matters.
Can describe in simple terms aspects of his/her background, immediate environment and matters in areas of immediate need.

A2 (posssible) or high A1 (more likely) is very achievable in a couple of months with the right resources and dedication.

At this stage, and with the need to reach as near to A2 as quickly as possible, I don't think FSI would be all that helpful to you in reaching A2. A good beginner course like Assimil, combined with Pimsleur and some exposure to comprehensible native material will do more to help you be able to function in a Spanish-speaking environment with your basic needs. If you are focused, consistent and persistent you can do this.

¡Buena suerte!

Edit: The reason why I recommended news articles (and really more human interest type articles) is because of the varied vocabulary and the chance you can find the same story in English. This is for someone focused on the long term. You are looking at going to Peru in two months! You need to be more focused on your real need to be understood and understand in order to satisfy basic needs in a foreign country. Do you know how to ask for a hotel room near to the center of town, where is the bus station and does the bus to Ayacucho make any stops along the way. Do you know how to ask about changing buses? Do you know how to ask where specific places are or may be, in Spanish? Do you know how to ask for assistance if you need it, etc.? All of this is much more important than wizards, wands and magic spells, unless you are going to a Harry Potter convention in Lima.

For the long term, yes, FSI is highly useful! In your particular situation- not so much right now. If you were staying at home with the luxury of time, yes either FSI (it's dry, drills and repetition) if you can deal with it, or a course like Assimil with audio would be good. For now, you need to learn how to communicate quickly. That's why I am recommending you delay FSI for a while.

[Stelle]

I would also recommend a language exchange (if you have more time than money) or tutoring (if you have more money than time). This would give you the opportunity to gain confidence and practise simple conversation. You could also do some role plays based on situations that you think might some up (ie booking a hotel, getting lost and asking for directions, ordering food, etc).

[James29]

With a lot of time on your hands I'd suggest the following: Do a lesson of Pimsleur every day until you go or until you have finished Pimsleur 3. Also work on another fairly comprehensive program that you can finish before you go. You won't have time to get through FSI or Assimil. Living Language's Ultimate Beginner course would be a great choice. It has 40 lessons and if you work it hard you should be able to finish it. It is of very high quality and will teach you the things you want to know.

The "problem" with reading/LR of books at this stage is that it doesn't really give you useful skills. It is helpful for the long-term and for reading, but for preparing for a trip I think you could get a lot more out of your time.

Doing an hour of courses a day (pimsleur and Living Language for example) will be more than enough for course work... you definitely don't want to burn out. With the remaining time I'd recommend "relaxing" and watching Destinos and/or Extr@ Spanish. I still remember how much I enjoyed sitting down with Destinos at the end of the day with a beer and just watching a quick episode. It was not much work at all, but was very useful.

There is no "right" answer and if Pimsleur is just too dry there are other options. Paul Noble, the languagetransfer.org course and synergy spanish would be great substitute options. I have not done the language transfer course, but, from what I hear it really may be the best beginner option out there. It is free so give a few lessons a try and see if you like it.

The important thing is to make the process enjoyable... you need to like it. Don't do Pimsleur because we tell you to do it... just consider our advice and make your own decision. If you force yourself to stick with Pimsleur and then you quit studying all together it doesn't matter how useful Pimsleur is.

A trip to Peru sounds amazing and you've got plenty of time to enjoy it. No matter what you do you won't be totally prepared... but that is part of the excitement.

[e.z.b.]

Worked all weekend, so I had limited time, but squeezed in my anki reviews, a lesson of Pimsleur a day, and an episode of Destinos. Also a couple of games on LyricsTraining, just because it's fun. Pimsleur's actually getting more interesting now -- I'm up to Unit 14, and some of the content is intersecting nicely with what I've been reading about in my grammar book. Thank you all for convincing me to keep going with it!

James - as far as Living Language goes, do you think it's worth purchasing? And I'm a bit confused about all the different offerings. Currently on their website there's no 'ultimate beginner course', although they do have an 'essential' and 'complete' version both of which are fairly affordable: http://www.livinglanguage.com/products/ ... l-complete. I found the ultimate beginner course on Amazon, but it was $100+ which is a bit out of my price range. I'm also looking at checking it out through interlibrary loan, but there are so many different versions I'm not sure which one will be the most useful!

Stelle - I'm definitely going to look into getting a tutor for some speaking practice. I randomly met a spanish teacher over the weekend and we talked about setting up a couple of sessions, which might be a good option if it's affordable. She lived in Colombia for a while and has been teaching for 30 years or something crazy like that. I'm emailing her to get some more details. On an unrelated note, I read your blog when I was just getting started and thought it had great advice... so thank you for helping me get started

Iguanamon - I picked up the Lonely Planet phrasebook from the library, & I'm entering a bunch of the useful words and phrases into my Anki deck. I've also been working on conjugating in the present tense - I've been doing a bunch of the exercises over at studyspanish.com. I feel pretty good about regular verbs in the present & present progressive -- I was so excited to learn how to make -ing words! My goal today is to get a handle on conjugating the most useful irregular verbs in the present tense, and then I'll start working on the preterite, followed by imperfect & future. Five years of Latin is definitely helping with a lot of the grammar. The sub2srs seemed really cool, but my computer's optical drive is sadly won't read DVDs which I think would make it hard to do.

In spite of the fact that I sadly am not attending a Harry Potter convention in Lima (although if anyone hears of one, let me know ), I'm continuing with the reading simply because it's time that I'd otherwise spend reading in English, so I figure I might as well read in Spanish instead. It also really hammers home my vocab -- it seems as though every time I learn a new word, I come across it a page later, and then it really sticks in my mind. I think you mentioned that experience in your multi-track approach thread, and it definitely rings true. It works well in reverse, too -- as I learn a new word, I'm like AHA now I know what that sentence meant! I'm also finding that I can listen to the audiobook and understand the vast majority (probably >80%) of what's happening without the text, which is nice. When I first began listening to it, it seemed impossibly fast, but compared to the speech in Once Upon a Time, it's snail-speed.

For this week, I plan to:

- continue with a Pimsleur lesson a day

- potentially add in a Living Language lesson a day as well, if I can get my hands on it

- keep adding vocab into my Anki deck -- I found an awesome frequency dictionary online at speak-spanish.ru, so I'm working my way through that, as well as prioritizing useful vocab from my Lonely Planet phrasebook

- continue working my way through my grammar book, spending a good bit of time on conjugating verbs and getting extra practice with the exercises at studyspanish.com -- I'm also entering a lot of the useful grammar bits into my Anki deck, cloze style

- watch at least 1 Destinos episode a day

- keep watching Erase Una Vez -- for some reason, this is really addictive. Anytime I can understand some conversation I feel wildly triumphant (it's the small things in life, right? haha)

- keep reading / listening to Harry Potter, particularly spending some time listening to the audiobook without the text in front of me

- get in touch with the Spanish teacher about potentially setting up some lessons

- I also want to add in some additional reading & TV watching - maybe some news-type stuff or whatever I can find that seems like it'll have useful vocab

Anything else I should add to my admittedly novel-length to-do list??

One thing I should add is that my goal for this trip is definitely more comprehension-oriented. Even if my communication abilities are limited, I'd really like to be able to understand what's going on around me. I remember traveling in France and being able to ask where things were, but never being able to understand the answer! People just talk so fast... Granted that was still easier than backpacking around Eastern Europe and having absolutely no ability to speak/understand/read anything - but like you said James, it's all part of the adventure!

[iguanamon]

Yes, you're right, the multi-track approach synergy works just as well, and I believe perhaps better, in reverse. The reason, I suggested (in your particular case) to scale back your efforts a bit is that I think it is most important to master what you need first, and concentrate on filling in the holes later. Since you have studied Latin before, you are probably not a true, raw monolingual, beginner. I am looking forward to seeing your progress and following your log. Just beware of burnout and remember that what may be gained quickly can be lost just as quickly without following up.

I have a friend who travels to Spain every other year and got along fine with the present tense alone. I taught him how to use gerunds, past participle with haber auxilliary verb and the future with ir present tense + infinitive and he was very pleased with the result.

Be sure to let me know if you find a bunch of "Potter-heads" to speak with in Peru.