Language Log - Koneho/Tolithe (Bahasa Indonesia dan/at Wikang Tagalog)

[Koneho]

Cleared up part of my memrise backlog. Burned through about 300 L-Indonesian sentences in Anki over the course of about an hour. I've added a new mode to Anki for a mass sentence (over 10k) that I got from Manythings.org. The principal of it is that I don't review. I plug it in to Anki and just do the new cards + the cards I fail I see a couple more times before they vanish. I do enough review with my real anki decks but this is a fun way to get "mass random comprehensible input". Was kind of hilarious to see a few of the constructions I had just encountered from the Manythings.org deck in the video I was watching.

I'm loving the Youtube2Anki extension. I'm currently working through a video (that I watched a couple of times before exporting to anki) by Kokbisa (think the infographics show but in a middle register Indonesian. I plan on finishing it before I go to bed or do more work (depending on how I feel). I'm not sure I really believe in SRS magic algorithims, but it is still the easiest way to review. I'm not regretting my vocabulary heavy approach I took for a few months on memrise before moving to sentences. I'm seeing tonnes of sentences that I either know, full stop, or have one or two unkowns per sentence. I find it less demotivating this way.

Yesterday, I watched Ada Apa Dengan Cinta, a famous movie in Indonesia that is mostly in L-Jakartan. The subtitles I had were standard Indonesian, however there is a transcript available for free from the Indonesian Way Website. If I could find a way to make those into actual subfiles I might could re-watch the movie with more accurate subs (Isn't diglossia fun?). It was an O.K. movie, but having spent so much time in SEA I kind of gag at Crazy Rich Asians. I don't feel sympathy for their plights and I've come to blows with my co-workers over child labor (middle class asians hiring poor provincial children illegally etc) and the low wages (even the legal minimum wage for a live in helper is 3.5k PHP/month or about 70 USD). So I can't say I found Cinta to be a sympathetic character, nor her one friend who goes through some hard times of her own. Call me a socialist but my heart doesn't bleed for these people.

I reopened my netflix account just for the Indonesian content, many with subs (but not accurate subs of course, who would want to sub in the L variant) and many without (lots of dubbed shows). People love to hate on SRS, but the trick is not to move to hard content right away, otherwise we drill it over and over as per the algorithims twisted will. I've mentioned the "vocab loading" I did which consisted of a few 2k+ single word (some word families too) cards on Memrise. I now have a pretty hefty passive vocabulary and I'm finding that most of the cards I make are at my level, or they quickly become at my level within a day or two (I'm impressed how the so called Mass Immersion Technique lets you really see your progress on the daily)

[Expugnator]

I've kept your log as 'unread' the past days just to remind myself to bookmark your recent suggestions. Thank you again.

My Indonesian is lightyears behind you guys', and being involved with so many other languages I probably won't consume nearly as 20% of the amount you guys tend to. That said, I opened a random cartoon and found it rather informal. It's definitely a register I haven't been exposed to, and that is good because it will probably be my main source for this in the middle run.

Miniforce is still above my league, I need something simpler and more repetitive.

[Adrianslont]

Burned through about 300 L-Indonesian sentences in Anki over the course of about an hour. I've added a new mode to Anki for a mass sentence (over 10k) that I got from Manythings.org. The principal of it is that I don't review. I plug it in to Anki and just do the new cards + the cards I fail I see a couple more times before they vanish. I do enough review with my real anki decks but this is a fun way to get "mass random comprehensible input".

That's an interesting idea. I've made some cards recently that are too easy - I've been marking them easy, except for the ones that actually offer something new - maybe I should just take your more extreme approach. I think it is a fault of mine that I move slowly through materials.

Yesterday, I watched Ada Apa Dengan Cinta, a famous movie in Indonesia that is mostly in L-Jakartan. The subtitles I had were standard Indonesian, however there is a transcript available for free from the Indonesian Way Website. If I could find a way to make those into actual subfiles I might could re-watch the movie with more accurate subs (Isn't diglossia fun?). It was an O.K. movie ...

I've never actually watched AADC, I have made it a policy not to watch any movie with the word Cinta! I'm surprised that the subs didn't match the audio - you're talking about on a DVD? In my experience even very colloquial speech has accurate subs which is great. I mention this because if you don't like the movie you could always just try another one because there are plenty out there - eg Cek Toko Sebelah was a very popular recent movie that has accurate subs on the DVD and has very colloquial speech.

If you want to make sub files yourself and use Windows there is a free program called Subtitleedit that will do the job. It's really intuitive and easy. It used to also run your Indo subs through Google Translate in seconds and give you a matching English translation but that has stopped working easily recently - Google's doing, they want people to buy the translation API. Anyway, you can still easily work around that just copying and pasting into Google Translate. If you use a MAc, I believe Aegisub is a similar program but I have never used it.

[Adrianslont]

I've kept your log as 'unread' the past days just to remind myself to bookmark your recent suggestions. Thank you again.

My Indonesian is lightyears behind you guys', and being involved with so many other languages I probably won't consume nearly as 20% of the amount you guys tend to. That said, I opened a random cartoon and found it rather informal. It's definitely a register I haven't been exposed to, and that is good because it will probably be my main source for this in the middle run.

Miniforce is still above my league, I need something simpler and more repetitive.

Expug, I only watched 3 episodes of Miniforce and found it very repetitive! They squabble with the little girl. They have a battle. They do the guns thing, the cars thing, they win!

Anyway, I find dubbed Japanese animations a bit hard to understand - there's a stylistic thing going on with the voices and they tend to be squeaky and hysterical which makes it harder for me to understand - which is why I prefer Thomas and Friends (Thomas dan Teman Teman) and Tintin - they are less stylised. However, they're also less repetitive so they are a bit harder that way. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCTCYKGqa0yY_5BMFzX65VOw is where I used to go to get my Thomas! No subtitles, unfortunately - though I have made my own for maybe 20 episodes.

[Koneho]

it a policy not to watch any movie with the word Cinta! I'm surprised that the subs didn't match the audio - you're talking about on a DVD? In my experience even very colloquial speech has accurate subs which is great. I mention this because if you don't like the movie you could always just try another one because there are plenty out there - eg Cek Toko Sebelah was a very popular recent movie that has accurate subs on the DVD and has very colloquial speech.

If you want to make sub files yourself and use Windows there is a free program called Subtitleedit that will do the job. It's really intuitive and easy. It used to also run your Indo subs through Google Translate in seconds and give you a matching English translation but that has stopped working easily recently - Google's doing, they want people to buy the translation API. Anyway, you can still easily work around that just copying and pasting into Google Translate. If you use a MAc, I believe Aegisub is a similar program but I have never used it.

Nope, the movie is actually on Netflix. I've not found a single piece of Indonesian media here in the Philippines. Maybe my issue with subs is the fact that most of my subtitled media comes from Netflix, who have a tendency to translate the language into something closer to the standard. Cinta talks in a very low register except for times where she adopts a higher register (showing the subtleties of the registers) she frequently says elu and gue (a character even commented upon this) and the subs miss most of the discourse particles like, sip, dong, kek, nih.

One thing I don't comment upon are my frequent chats on Speaky. I can't be bothered to find a good conversation partner, the most attentive users keep getting banned. I find it interesting that the users on Speaky in general tend to lean towards formal language, even though when I'm on discord the natives go full speed Jakartanese.

Here is a fun exercise we did over on the Indonesian discord server I help moderate. A user (a real life linguist who apparently has done some field work on an NTT language) asked about the idiomacity of this dialog,

Mari kita pergi makan di "Sumba ate"!
Eee! Mahal sekali di sana!
Kalau saya yang mengundan kakak, artinya kakak tidak harus pikirkan harganya!

To which I responded,

Ayuk pergi makan di sumba ate
eee, mahal sekali sana
kalo saya yng traktir kakak, maksudnya kakak nggak harus pikirin harganya

A native Jakartan piped in with,

1. Yuk kita makan di Sumba Ate
2. Ee! Mahal banget di sana!
3. Kalo gue udah ngajak lo berarti lo udah nggak usah mikirin harganya!

You'll note that both initial post and my post carry through the same mistake which is using an imperative form of "pikir". OP used pikirkan to which I translated as pikirin, and the native comes along and humbles us by using it in the right way. Also, the Jakartan translation assumes a closeness between the speakers that I am not sure was present in the initial dialog.

In the few days since I've made the original interpretation, I've also come to recognize the "gausah" construction employed by the native Jakartan, as well as gotten more comfortable using the intensifier "banget".



Will post a normal update later. Also, thanks to everyone here for the productive discourse; makes me feel like a member of the LL.org community! Never hesitate to interrupt the log, I don't consider it as such!

[Adrianslont]

Ah, Netflix. That explains it. I don’t have Netflix myself. I’m guessing they do their own subs - I bet the AADC DVD subs match the dialogue! One of he great things about Indonesian dvds is how any movie made in the last ten years seems to have really accurate subs. My Tintin box set is unusual in that they are only about 50% accurate - it’s not so much a register thing there, though - just different.

The whole register thing is fascinating and is entwined with the influence of Bahasa Daerah. It seems to play out differently in different parts of the country. I’ve seen discussions over on r/Indonesia on reddit where someone has said aku is too intimate for anyone but your nearest and dearest! And some people seem to reject the whole Jakarta-centric nature of Bahasa Gaul - while others embrace it. Maybe that cuts along age lines as well?

And most Indonesians, especially older ones expect me to use a more middle/formal register - I’ve been politely corrected a few times for being too casual so I tend to avoid going too casual now. My advanced age may play a role there, too.

[Koneho]

Been super beat, maybe a bit sick or just over worked.

https://decks.memrise.com/course/556769 ... t/details/

I started on a 50languages sentence course for memrise (and anki) but it is time consuming and the blinding white of the console screen is no bueno. I'll continue to work on it, if anyone would like to contribute to the course I can explain the process of making anki and memrise decks out of 50 languages. A kind Redditor walked me through the process on /r/Languagelearning. Here are the first 20 sentences or so.

It'll be a long slow process, and my potato computer is a huge reason why I like to use premade things or things that are scripted. I'll try and bang it out though.

~~

Will update further later tonight.

Here is the script

String.prototype.isEmpty = function() {
return (this.length === 0 || !this.trim());
};
function download(url) {
var a = document.createElement("a");
a.href = url;
a.download = 'filename';
a.innerText = 'filename';
a.target = "_blank";
document.body.appendChild(a);
a.click();
setTimeout(function() {
document.body.removeChild(a);
window.URL.revokeObjectURL(url);
}, 50);
}
rows = document.querySelectorAll('.verlauf > .row > div.col-md-12 > table.span5.table-centered > tbody > tr')
rows.forEach(row => {
if (
row &&
row.children.length === 4 &&
row.children[0].children.length > 0 &&
row.children[0].children[0].innerText
){
let englishText = row.children[0].children[0].innerText
if (!englishText.isEmpty()){
console.log("englishText:", englishText)
let indonesianText = row.children[1].children[0].innerText.trim().split('\n')
let audioLink = row.children[3].children[1].children[0].src
let audioLinkSplit = audioLink.split('/')
console.log(`${englishText}@${indonesianText[0]}@${indonesianText[1]}@[sound:${audioLinkSplit[audioLinkSplit.length-1]}]`)
download(audioLink)
}
}
})

After doing this copy and paste the text with @ to your spreadsheet program (I use Apache's free stuff) and have @ set as the delimiter. Don't forget to open your anki media files (easier to do on anki2.1) if you'd like to convert to Anki. You can replace the indonesianText with "languageofyourchoice" here and duplicate the process for the other 50languages courses (if you so chose). They do have a large selection, and a few smaller languages like Afrikaans, Georgian, etc.

Edit 1: I got about 6 lessons in and it was taking a lot of time. I'll finish importing the text first then go back and add the audio

https://www.memrise.com/course/5567691/ ... sentences/

X/ marks where i gave up downloading and compiling the audio and sentences as the same time. I'll shoot to have it all finished by this week so it will be use able, and I'll list the course publicly.

[Adrianslont]

I forgot to mention earlier that I appreciate your openness to others commenting on your log - I’m too lazy to start my own but enjoy interacting with other Indonesian learners.

Your script and Memrise project? It may as well be Ancient Greek to me - I don’t script. Actually, not long ago rdearman provided a little script and a “just” run this comment. I feel sorry for the guy because I bothered him until I actually got it to work. I should probably dedicate some time to learning more.

And Memrise - still not sure about how I feel about Memrise. Well see. A few of those Bahasa Gaul units interest me: Jakarta, Chinese and sentences.

I appreciate your generosity.

Hope you feel better soon:

[Koneho]

I'm off today and spent my morning compiling Indonesian things to read over at readingtools.io I've subbed to indonesianpod101 for a month using the dollar promo and am importing most of it to the reading tool. Some of it I have made public, and some of it I have not due to copy right concerns. The youtube vids that are already on I have made publicly available. I do recommend it, for a dollar and then download and compile your own library. They have several conversational lessons with nice dialogues, and they have a 25 lesson ~100 vocab (with sentences) lessons on slang. They cover some of the discourse particles and slang words. If only they'd add five times more they could corner the market on L-Indonesian. I've also imported most of their audio books. Some are a few minutes long and are quite repetitive, they remind me of LingQ's mini stories. Later on in their advanced section, they do have some very very long 10+ minute long recordings of the news with transcriptions.

Not done any more Memrise additions, but I may do some more later. I've done a line count and it will be about 1,866 sentences which is a time eater for me. I'll strive to do my SRS later but right now I'm taking it easy and just reading and listening to the things I've imported. I also decided to use alkitab.is and import some bibles. They have two versions of note. The first one is the 1974 plain language version with audio. I'm using the drama version since I'm 1. not religious, 2. find I agree with some users (was it Expug???) that it is like Game of Thrones in the middle east.

They also have a text only version called "Bahasa Indonesia Sehari Hari", however I question how 'sehari hari' it really is. I however have enough to watch and do today with what I've compiled. Maybe later I'll update more after I finish my srs reps but for now I'll keep reading Matius while I wait on my takeaway food to get here.

I'll let this kalimat dalam bahasa Indonesia memberitahu pada kalian, "Saya harap buku ini akan menjadi lebih menarik".

[Koneho]

I'm just working through my Memrise backlog, this time with more sentences. I've had a peek at the DLI Indonesian course, and other than the PDF being super cumbersome it looks good. Of interest to me is the audio-less refresher course, which has a new searchable style PDF and little grammar points and dialogs/translation drills. I may find a way to incorporate it into my studies.

I found the podcast Adrianslot mentioned but unfortunately, they appear to have killed the transcripts. One has to search the podcast name "Bahasa Inggris untuk studi di Australia" and use it on a podcast website, it no longer appeears to be hosted on the Australian news site mentioned.

Malaysian media is often leagues above Indonesian media, I listened to a few Malay songs and after dipping into Indonesian heavily for the past few weeks I was shocked that I understood so little. I can tell the normal affixes pretty well in formal Indonesian, but emang being colloquial for memang never crossed my mine. "Kalau aku nak aku pun boleh, kalau aku nak aku memang boleh" is the hook/chorus of a Malay song and the word 'memang' took me by surprise as I never ever see it with the full meN- prefix. Nak is a word we don't hear often in Indonesian (to want, hendak) Indonesians preferring mau or pengen in informal speech, and mahu or ingin in formal speech; I do recognize the word though as it is obscenely common in Malay media.

A few bits of common Malay-isms for those of us who are studying Indonesian:

- nak, to want
- tak, tidak, enggak etc
- apa, goes at the end of a sentence and functions more like Chinese question marker 'ma'
- Budak, child (not slave)
- Takde/tiada tidak ada
- tengah, lagi/sedang
- ada, used in place of punya
- kawan, friend
Aku tak nak. Dia budak Melayu. Aku takde duit takde wang. Aku ada nasi lemak.

I don't want (it). He is a Malay kid. I don't have cash or money. I have nasi lemak.

Sometimes I really question the mutual intelligibility. The Malay speaker I made admin of the Bahasa discord server claims full intelligibility, but even he admits he doesn't understand some basic things. I shared a screenshot of Grab Car's awful translation feature I pulled from Indonesian social media and the word 'halte' threw him for a loop. Similarly, I often get angry DMs from users that his Malay is gobbledygook to them.

To sum up my feelings:

Malay, brought to you by the schwa, the English rhotic, the digraph kh, and the letter z.