Slouching towards B2lehem [FR,KO,ZH]

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Cavesa
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Re: Slouching towards B2lehem [FR,KO,ZH]

Postby Cavesa » Sat Jul 06, 2019 5:55 pm

Hi! A great log, thanks for sharing it!

I barely passed my DELF B2 ages ago (barely means 50/100, ages ago means 2010). I hadn't prepared for it specifically either.

While I'd partially agree that it is weird and slightly skews the reliability of the exam, when some people just drill the exam preparations and are not as good at anything else, I think those people are still exceptions. Since then, I have definitely changed my opinion and take the exam preparation as an opportunity to broaden my learning focus and learn new stuff. My DALF C2 preparation definitely came handy in real life too, and I don't think I would have learnt some of the things I normally use without the exam. Refusing to prepare for a DELF/DALF exam may feel like being heroic. But in reality, you are missing out of the best coursebooks focusing on very practical use of the language, and really pointing out stuff you don't know you should know.

I remember my oral exam going badly too. Partially, the testing centre was to blame, as they broke the rules and one of the two examiners was simply absent during my exam. She went away, when I came to the room, and came back at the end of my exam. Back then, I didn't have the courage to protest and it made me really nervous. Also, I had been prepared for a shorter monologue and then discussion, but it turned out to be the opposite, it was like talking to the wall. And even the dialogue part was weird with that one person. But yes, I wouldn't have gotten an awesome score under any conditions, given my skills, but I wouldn't have been so bad either. Next time, I'd recommend looking on youtube, there are various videos of the exam candidates, often with evaluation and tips. Such videos are a very good lead, during the preparation :-)

Writing is the most difficult skill to prepare. The learning resources totally underestimate it, including teachers. As a way to discover a lot of the imperfections yourself, I'd recommend putting the paper aside for a few days and then looking at it with fresh eyes. You'll notice a lot of stuff. Also, writing with a stopwatch is an extremely useful exercice.

You are not supposed to understand tv series at B2, I don't know, where people get this belief. And a few hours of tv series make no difference. A few hundred hours, however, will bring your comprehension to C2. :-)

Careful about the tutors. B2 is still not that far, but when you are at the higher levels, ask about their experience with the learners at C1 and C2 and the exam preparation. And demand direct answers, no vague sauce. Most tutors are simply not strict enough for the advanced learners.

About her doubts concerning your reading: this is unfortunately normal. It happened to me repeatedly, that teachers were underestimating what I could read. Back when I was still in class, I used to believe them (and nonsense like this is one of the many reasons, why I don't trust teachers anymore). It slowed my progress down by years. Teachers are often heavily prejudiced against reading (especially extensive reading, without boring yourself to tears by dissecting every word) and seem to be extremely ignorant about the difficulty of various books and about the reading effects in general. L'Étranger was my first book in French too, ages ago at the B1 level. I really disliked the book. :-D I would have disliked it in any language. It was a challenge but a totally normal one, not too much.

A piece of advice: if you want to use tutors, do not take their advice too seriously. At least not unless they have reached C2 in another language or got some people there (and even then, take it with a grain of salt), they simply don't have the needed experience in many areas. Yes, use them for speaking and writing feedback (and use the strict ones, not the lenient and too encouraging types), but don't let them slow you down or discourage you from a challenge. They simply have no clue about the advanced learners, they tend to believe that broken B2 is the ceiling of what a foreigner can achieve and act accordingly.
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Re: Slouching towards B2lehem [FR,KO,ZH]

Postby an onyme » Sun Jul 07, 2019 8:19 pm

<FR>
Cavesa wrote:Hi! A great log, thanks for sharing it!

Merci de l'avoir lu !

Cavesa wrote:
I barely passed my DELF B2 ages ago (barely means 50/100, ages ago means 2010). I hadn't prepared for it specifically either.


C'est exactement le genre de réussite que je vise ! Le plus proche à 50, le mieux . Il serait mieux aussi s'il a eu lieu il y a neuf ans.

<EN>Exactly the kind of pass I'm going for! The closer to 50 the better. It would also be better if it happened nine years ago.

Cavesa wrote:Refusing to prepare for a DELF/DALF exam may feel like being heroic. But in reality, you are missing out of the best coursebooks focusing on very practical use of the language, and really pointing out stuff you don't know you should know.


Ouais, vous avez raison, c'était exactement comme ça sans ironie . J'ai réfusé pour que je puisse avoir l'air plus cool quand je réussis mais d'avoir mal avec une simple présentation n'a pas l'air cool à personne . Je voudrais monologuer mieux de toute façon donc le plus logique c'est de préparer directement avec les méthodes meilleures .

<EN>Yeah you're right, it was exactly like that no joke. I purposefully didn't prepare so that I could look cooler when I pass but barely getting through a simple presentation doesn't look cool to anybody. I would want to monologue better anyway so the most logical thing to do would be to prepare the skill directly with the best material out there.

Cavesa wrote:You are not supposed to understand tv series at B2, I don't know, where people get this belief. And a few hours of tv series make no difference. A few hundred hours, however, will bring your comprehension to C2. :-)

En fait, j'ai pris cette croyance de ce forum soi-même ! Si j'essaye à imiter quelqu'un de ce forum, je dirais genre «Ah oui, après des mois d'étude, je peux comprendre cent pour cent des actualités et des séries doublées, lire de la littérature classique, prendre un avion à un pays de ma langue ciblée, réserver une chambre au hôtel sans peine, entrer dans une maison de retraite sous un faux nom, m'approcher d'un vieillard seul mourant, devenir amis les plus proche au fil du temps, transcrire ses derniers mots qui me nomment comme bénéficiaire, convaincre l'avocat que tout est réglo, et m'installer à Hawaï pour une retraite en avance . On dirait que je sois enfin au niveau A2.»


Cavesa wrote:About her doubts concerning your reading: this is unfortunately normal. It happened to me repeatedly, that teachers were underestimating what I could read. Back when I was still in class, I used to believe them (and nonsense like this is one of the many reasons, why I don't trust teachers anymore). It slowed my progress down by years. Teachers are often heavily prejudiced against reading (especially extensive reading, without boring yourself to tears by dissecting every word) and seem to be extremely ignorant about the difficulty of various books and about the reading effects in general.

Peut-être c'est parce que chez les francophones, il leur a fallu prendre des cours sur la littérature pour pouvoir lire en français tandis qu'il ne leur a fallu rien pour pouvoir parler et comprendre . Mais en tant qu'anglophone, la compréhension écrite est de loin la compétence le plus facile . Aussi, pour moi au moins, la lecture extensive est bien de loin la méthode d'apprentissage le plus amusante.

<EN>Maybe because those Francophones needed to take a class to learn how to read in French but not for how to speak and understand. But as an Anglophone, the easiest skill by far is reading. Also, at least for me, extensive reading is definitely the most fun learning method by far.

Cavesa wrote:L'Étranger was my first book in French too, ages ago at the B1 level. I really disliked the book. :-D I would have disliked it in any language. It was a challenge but a totally normal one, not too much.

C'est drôle, j'aimerais lire L'Étranger pour la première fois en n'importe quelle langue parce que je n'ai jamais expérimenté la phase adolescente existentielle . J'espére qu'il ne finit pas par me rendre trop insupportable .

<EN>It's funny, I would've loved reading The Stranger for the first time in any language because I never experienced the teenage existentialist phase. I hope that doesn't end up making me too insufferable.

Cavesa wrote:A piece of advice: if you want to use tutors, do not take their advice too seriously. At least not unless they have reached C2 in another language or got some people there (and even then, take it with a grain of salt), they simply don't have the needed experience in many areas. Yes, use them for speaking and writing feedback (and use the strict ones, not the lenient and too encouraging types), but don't let them slow you down or discourage you from a challenge. They simply have no clue about the advanced learners, they tend to believe that broken B2 is the ceiling of what a foreigner can achieve and act accordingly.


Oui, c'est du bon conseil . Mais peut-être il faut juste que j'exige plus de mes tutrices (je rejete cette règle) et que je prenne le contrôle de mes sessions en visant des objectives claires . C'est un peu bizarre, j'ai trouvé que les enseignants plus chers et mieux établis insistent plus pour faire des petits exercices nases que je déteste .

<EN>Yes, that's good advice. Maybe I just need to ask more of my tutor-PL-3-FEMININE-1-MASCULINE and take control of my lessons with clearer goals in mind. It's a bit strange, I found that the more expensive and established teachers are more insistent on doing those small dumb exercises that I hate .
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Re: Slouching towards B2lehem [FR,KO,ZH]

Postby an onyme » Sun Jul 07, 2019 10:03 pm

<FR>
Je viens de regarder des chansons de Disney sur YouTube comme d'hab et j'ai constaté que dans une chanson de Mulan, le chanteur dit «secret comme les nuits de lune de l'Orient». Mais vu que l'historie s'agit du Chine, il aurait dit «quotidien comme les nuits de lune normale auxquels on s'est tout habitué», n'est-ce pas?
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Re: Slouching towards B2lehem [FR,KO,ZH]

Postby MorkTheFiddle » Sun Jul 07, 2019 11:07 pm

Enjoy your log. Its name gets an A+. :) Yes, "slumbering" was a slip, but at least you did not go with Blog it as it Plays. ;)
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Re: Slouching towards B2lehem [FR,KO,ZH]

Postby an onyme » Mon Jul 08, 2019 2:41 am

MorkTheFiddle wrote:Enjoy your log. Its name gets an A+. :) Yes, "slumbering" was a slip, but at least you did not go with Blog it as it Plays. ;)

<EN>Thanks! I must admit, I am unduly proud of that name. But now I can't stop thinking of related blog titles.
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Re: Slouching towards B2lehem [FR,KO,ZH]

Postby an onyme » Mon Jul 08, 2019 5:42 am

<EN><Idiom count: 2; Phrasal verb count: 2>
2019 June 17-23: Log
Previous week | Next week
FR: 150/61/36
  • ACQ: 4 minutes
    • Anki editing: 4 minutes
  • DRL: 0
  • SRS: 81 minutes
    • Anki deck: 81 minutes
  • INL: 0
  • INR: 0
  • PRO: 65 minutes
    • iTalki: 65 minutes
  • PRW: 0
  • EXL: 61 minutes
    • Call My Agent!<Dix pour cent>: S1E4>-5: 61 minutes
        A rewatch, but it's my favorite French series by far so I don't mind. I was taken by Andréa shouting "voitu-RE" in anger and now I pronounce "-re" words in the same way when I want to emphasize them.
  • EXR: 36 minutes
    • Cloud Atlas<Cartographie des Nuages>: p596-609, p613-616/17 pages: 36 minutes
As you can tell, I slacked off a bit after the DELF. I will continue to for months probably.

KO: 365/331/308
  • ACQ: 46 minutes
    • Anki editing: 46 minutes
  • DRL: 0
  • SRS: 259 minutes
    • Vocab deck: 177 minutes
        Why won't this die???
    • Hanja deck: 67 minutes
    • Sentence deck: 15 minutes
  • INL: 0
  • INR: 0
  • PRO: 60 minutes
    • iTalki: 60 minutes
  • PRW: 0
  • EXL: 331 minutes:
    • Night Lights<불야성/不夜城>: E5-7: 212 minutes
    • My Only Love Song: E16*: 3 minutes
    • The President's Barber<효자동 이발사/孝子洞 理髮師>[EN]: 116 minutes
        I did not like this film. The dramatic parts were not done well enough to justify the clichés, and the comedic parts did not land at all for me except the scene where the barber met Chun Doo-Hwan<전두환/全斗煥>.
  • EXR: 308 minutes
    • The Hundred-Year-Old Man Who Climbed Out the Window and Disappeared<창문 넘어 도망친 100세 노인>: p163-237/75 pages: 308 minutes
        It's Forrest Gump if Forrest Gump constantly kept accidentally causing people's deaths of a lot of people and I love it. Though I could barely understand a word of the section with the Catholic priest (missionary?) in Iran. I assume there was just a lot of religion-related vocabulary and register I didn't know, and since I am not doing intensive reading with this book, I will go to my grave not knowing.

ZH: 1352/0/0
  • ACQ: 263 minutes:
    • Ankifying Beginning Chinese Reader L26-29, 34-35, 37: 263 minutes
  • DRL: 71 minutes
    • Glossika: 350 sentences/+35 new: 71 minutes
  • SRS: 336 minutes:
    • Character deck: 93 minutes
    • Vocab deck: +364 cards/182 words: 243 minutes
  • INL: 0
  • INR: 682 minutes
    • Beginning Chinese Reader: L22-L30: 682 minutes
  • PRO: 0
  • PRW: 0
  • EXL: 0
  • EXL: 0

You too can put up non-rookie numbers like these if you study languages instead of hanging out with friends and nothing good or bad or interesting happens all week!
Last edited by an onyme on Tue Jul 30, 2019 1:13 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Slouching towards B2lehem [FR,KO,ZH]

Postby an onyme » Wed Jul 10, 2019 8:54 pm

EDIT: 2019 July 29: The following categorization has been superseded by a 10-sphere system. All hail the spheres.
<EN><Idiom count: 1>
Decided to categorize into six spheres: Intensive Listening, Intensive Reading, Intensive Speaking, Intensive Writing, Extensive Listening, Extensive Reading. Though the line between Intensive and Extensive might only be that learning materials are in the former. I definitely need to beef up my Korean technical vocabulary though. French is barely a non-native language in that sphere.

Upon reflection, there is such a thing as Extensive Speaking and Extensive Writing. Extensive Speaking would be speaking in target languages with friends or at a store or something, while Extensive Writing would be what I write here in my target languages, or in other internet forums, or in texts with friends. Unfortunately, all my close friends are monolingual! Hooray America.

Also, Extensive Listening/Reading here is really for the things I do which are legible to a system of recording. It is harder to count the stupid YouTube videos about Marvel movies in French that I'm half-listening to in the background right now, or reading w w w dot reddit dot com slash air france, or my phone settings which have been in French since forever. I have an idea for systematizing this though.

2019 June 24-30: Log
Previous week | Next week
FR: 116/0/0
  • ACQ: 0
  • DRL: 0
  • SRS: 49 minutes
    • Ank decki: 49 minutes
  • INL: 0
  • INR: 0
  • PRO: 67 minutes
    • iTalki: 67 minutes
  • PRW: 0
  • EXL: 0
  • EXR: 0

KO: 351/92/26
  • ACQ: 0
  • DRL: 0
  • SRS: 228 minutes
    • Vocab deck: 173 minutes
    • Hanja deck: 55 minutes
  • INL: 0
  • INR: 0
  • PRO: 123 minutes
    • iTalki: 123 minutes
  • PRW: 0
  • EXL: 92 minutes
    • Night Lights<불야성/不夜城>: E8: 66 minutes
    • My Only Love Song: E16: 26 minutes
  • EXR: 26 minutes
    • The Hundred-Year-Old Man Who Climbed Out the Window and Disappeared<창문 넘어 도망친 100세 노인>: p237-245/9 pages: 26 minutes

ZH: 744/0/0
  • ACQ: 495 minutes
    • Ankifying Beginning Chinese Reader L31-32, 38-41, 43-47 37: 495 minutes
        I discovered that my copy of Beginning Chinese Reader Part I was from a different edition than my copy of Beginning Chinese Reader Part II, which led to me seeing Lesson 34 instead of the expected Lesson 31 when I opened Part II. So the time I would have spent actually reading it was diverted to putting the rest of the words into Anki. If you yourself decide to get the two parts from different editions, I suggest getting the second edition for Part I and the first edition for Part II. That way you can read L31-33 twice instead of zero times.
  • DRL: 25 minutes
    • Glossika: 100 sentences/+10 new: 25 minutes
  • SRS: 224 minutes
    • Character: +10 cards/characters: 114 minutes
    • Vocab: +68 cards/34 words: 110 minutes
  • INL: 0
  • INR: 0
  • PRO: 0
  • PRW: 0
  • EXL: 0
  • EXR: 0
Last edited by an onyme on Tue Jul 30, 2019 1:10 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Slouching towards B2lehem [FR,KO,ZH]

Postby an onyme » Thu Jul 11, 2019 1:35 am

<EN>
By the way, the most difficult French input for me is by far casual speech between natives, but by its nature it is difficult to find examples with transcripts. Any ideas? Maybe I just need to keep watching native series and movies.
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Re: Slouching towards B2lehem [FR,KO,ZH]

Postby MorkTheFiddle » Thu Jul 11, 2019 2:10 am

an onyme wrote:<EN>
By the way, the most difficult French input for me is by far casual speech between natives, but by its nature it is difficult to find examples with transcripts. Any ideas? Maybe I just need to keep watching native series and movies.
The $64 problem. I look to Netflex TV programs and movies originally in French with either subsitles or close captioning in French for working on this problem. Once such movie is Divines. The subject is drugs in the French Arab community. It is not without some value, but also not without violence and stupidity (and I mean stupidity in the presentation, not the problem or the community). There is, however, slang and fast talking. On the other side, I just watched today Wedding Unplanned, a pleasant comedy with a bit of slang and colloquialisms. I also liked Chant du Loup, a thriller and not much more. Most French TV series leave me wondering why they bother*, but Dix pour cent (Call My Agent) can be useful this regard.

* I am not a big fan of TV series of any country, really. I did enjoy DaVinci's Inquest and have wondered, since it was Canadian, if there isn't a version of it on DVD in French.

There are some further ideas in the Wiki: https://learnanylanguage.fandom.com/wiki/French_movies_and_series_with_accurate_subtitles
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Re: Slouching towards B2lehem [FR,KO,ZH]

Postby an onyme » Thu Jul 11, 2019 2:20 am

MorkTheFiddle wrote:
an onyme wrote:<EN>
By the way, the most difficult French input for me is by far casual speech between natives, but by its nature it is difficult to find examples with transcripts. Any ideas? Maybe I just need to keep watching native series and movies.
The $64 problem. I look to Netflex TV programs and movies originally in French with either subsitles or close captioning in French for working on this problem. Once such movie is Divines. The subject is drugs in the French Arab community. It is not without some value, but also not without violence and stupidity (and I mean stupidity in the presentation, not the problem or the community). There is, however, slang and fast talking. On the other side, I just watched today Wedding Unplanned, a pleasant comedy with a bit of slang and colloquialisms. I also liked Chant du Loup, a thriller and not much more. Most French TV series leave me wondering why they bother*, but Dix pour cent (Call My Agent) can be useful this regard.

* I am not a big fan of TV series of any country, really. I did enjoy DaVinci's Inquest and have wondered, since it was Canadian, if there isn't a version of it on DVD in French.

There are some further ideas in the Wiki: https://learnanylanguage.fandom.com/wiki/French_movies_and_series_with_accurate_subtitles

<EN><Idiom count: 2>
I love Dix pour cent! Definitely a head and a few shoulders above the other French native series I've managed to find so far. It also comes closest to my ideal of having as few pauses between dialogue segments as possible. Though it is possible that there is no daylight between it and other series, and it's just that since I like the series more I appreciate or do not notice the non-dialogue scenes. This problem is much more pronounced in Korean dramas, there are just so many dramatic silent stares! Outside of Night Lights<불야성/不夜城> I have no choice but to watch things on Netflix with Audio Description lest I get too annoyed by lack of input.

My dream would be just a button on my phone that I can press to start a nonending stream of super-fast French accompanied by a transcript displayed at a 0.5-second lag.
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