Isn't it Romantic? SCMT learns Spanish and French

Continue or start your personal language log here, including logs for challenge participants
User avatar
SCMT
Orange Belt
Posts: 245
Joined: Thu May 30, 2019 6:32 pm
Languages: Engilsh (N)
Spanish (Learning)
French (Beginning)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=10551
x 803

Re: 40something Spanish Log

Postby SCMT » Mon Nov 02, 2020 9:39 pm

MorkTheFiddle wrote:Just spent the last hour or so reading through your whole log. Your plans and your followup and the extent of the materials you have studied impress and inspire me very much. Some of your recommendations I want to follow up on myself: alanxelmundo, "Las batallas en el desierto," by Jose Emilio Pacheco, Toc Toc and El Guardian Invisible. A peek at alanxelmunco makes it look intriging, though the flow goes too fast for me without the subs. In the next few days I'll be looking at the others.

As for Club Dumas, congratulations for grinding it out. Me, I bailed less than halfway through. Quite boring.

I read The Old Man and the Sea in the original, and I'll be curious about your reaction to it if you ever go back to it and finish.

As for a couple of suggestions, although I liked Cien Años de Soledad so much that I read it three or four times and listened to it three or four times (the latter, in part to improve my listening skills), none of García Márquez's other novels appeal to me. His short stories, though, are a different kettle of fish. "A Very Old Man with Enormous Wings" and "El coronel no tiene quien le escriba" are just two of his many fine stories and novellas. Anyway, these are just little suggestions (that you don't really seem to need.) :)

Et bien, bonne chance avec le français !


Thank you very much for the nice words; I really do appreciate the fact that people on here take the time to look through my musings. I hope my struggles and small wins help or entertain others.

I really hadn't considered reading Gacría Márquez' short stories, but that's a really good idea. I loved Love in the Time of Cholera (in English,) and I have really held off on 100 years of Solidtude because the English version of it is on my bookshelf. I may return to El viejo y el mar after my current book; it would be fun to judge my progress, although it feels like cheating to go back to a translation.

Just out of curiosity, do you have any thoughts on moving from one Romance language to another?
1 x

User avatar
MorkTheFiddle
Black Belt - 2nd Dan
Posts: 2113
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2015 8:59 pm
Location: North Texas USA
Languages: English (N). Read (only) French and Spanish. Studying Ancient Greek. Studying a bit of Latin. Once studied Old Norse. Dabbled in Catalan, Provençal and Italian.
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 11#p133911
x 4823

Re: 40something Spanish Log

Postby MorkTheFiddle » Tue Nov 03, 2020 7:21 pm

SCMT wrote:I really hadn't considered reading Gacría Márquez' short stories, but that's a really good idea. I loved Love in the Time of Cholera (in English,) and I have really held off on 100 years of Solidtude because the English version of it is on my bookshelf. I may return to El viejo y el mar after my current book; it would be fun to judge my progress, although it feels like cheating to go back to a translation.

Just out of curiosity, do you have any thoughts on moving from one Romance language to another?

The market has a number of different collections of García Márquez's stories, I'm sure.

I took Spanish in my sophomore and junior years in high school and then dropped the language altogether for want of time and opportunity. I began French in my sophomore of college, so there was a gap of two full years between Spanish and French. That gap explains why there was no interference from Spanish while I was learning French. Knowing Spanish gives a leg up on exposure to the subjuctive and on vocabulary. Learning Spanish first even gives a vocabulary bonus. With few exceptions the gender of a Spanish noun is obvious from its ending, but not at all so in French. However, knowing the gender from Spanish gives the clue to the gender in French, almost always the same. For example, the gender of Spanish lago tells you the gender of French lac.

I have made no serious attempts to learn other Romance languages, though I once briefly flirted with Catalan, Occitan, Galician and Italian. I do remember Spanish interfered a lot for me with Catalan.

On balance, though, I think the advantages of going from one Romance language to another far outweigh the disadvantages.

So. ! Ándale ! ;)
2 x
Many things which are false are transmitted from book to book, and gain credit in the world. -- attributed to Samuel Johnson

User avatar
iguanamon
Black Belt - 2nd Dan
Posts: 2353
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2015 11:14 am
Location: Virgin Islands
Languages: Speaks: English (Native); Spanish (C2); Portuguese (C2); Haitian Creole (C1); Ladino/Djudeo-espanyol (C1); Lesser Antilles French Creole (B2)
Studies: Catalan
Language Log: viewtopic.php?t=797
x 14189

Re: 40something Spanish Log

Postby iguanamon » Tue Nov 03, 2020 9:25 pm

SCMT wrote:Just out of curiosity, do you have any thoughts on moving from one Romance language to another?

Not addressed to me, but I do have some experience here.
1) Make sure you are solid in your Spanish- B2/C1/C2.
2) "Laddering", learning L3 through L2, doesn't work for me with related languages. I find it distracts me too much and I tend to start seeing the next romance language through the prism of L2, in my case- Spanish. I prefer either monolingual or another base language. This doesn't mean that you still can't leverage the Spanish in your head to your advantage. I do it all the time. To me it helps me to make my own connections... which seems to help me to learn better.
3) When starting a next romance language, don't push the first one aside and leave it on the shelf. Continue to read, listen, speak, write etc. Try to advance it.
4) It's a separate language for a reason. If it weren't, then all Spanish-speakers could just speak Spanish to Portuguese/Italian/French-speakers with no problems There are plenty of "falsos amigos" there too. Make sure you know the definition of a word even if it seems to be exactly the same. 9 times out of 10, it will be... but there's always that time when it isn't.
5) Don't think it will be "a walk in the park". It won't be. It's a different language for a reason. Yes, You get a huge head start, but you're still going to have to work at it... hard.
6) Pay attention to the little things as well as the big things- prepositions and pronouns are always there to trip you up.
5 x

User avatar
SCMT
Orange Belt
Posts: 245
Joined: Thu May 30, 2019 6:32 pm
Languages: Engilsh (N)
Spanish (Learning)
French (Beginning)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=10551
x 803

Re: 40something Spanish Log

Postby SCMT » Tue Nov 03, 2020 9:55 pm

iguanamon wrote:
SCMT wrote:Just out of curiosity, do you have any thoughts on moving from one Romance language to another?

Not addressed to me, but I do have some experience here.
1) Make sure you are solid in your Spanish- B2/C1/C2.
2) "Laddering", learning L3 through L2, doesn't work for me with related languages. I find it distracts me too much and I tend to start seeing the next romance language through the prism of L2, in my case- Spanish. I prefer either monolingual or another base language. This doesn't mean that you still can't leverage the Spanish in your head to your advantage. I do it all the time. To me it helps me to make my own connections... which seems to help me to learn better.
3) When starting a next romance language, don't push the first one aside and leave it on the shelf. Continue to read, listen, speak, write etc. Try to advance it.
4) It's a separate language for a reason. If it weren't, then all Spanish-speakers could just speak Spanish to Portuguese/Italian/French-speakers with no problems There are plenty of "falsos amigos" there too. Make sure you know the definition of a word even if it seems to be exactly the same. 9 times out of 10, it will be... but there's always that time when it isn't.
5) Don't think it will be "a walk in the park". It won't be. It's a different language for a reason. Yes, You get a huge head start, but you're still going to have to work at it... hard.
6) Pay attention to the little things as well as the big things- prepositions and pronouns are always there to trip you up.


Thank you, iguanamon. I'm always open to good advice from people who have already done what I'm trying to do. I have read several of your posts on studying related languages and am aware of some of your troubles, particularly with point #2 above, and will definitely keep it in mind.

As for the rest, I think I am solid enough in Spanish to give it a go, but I'm not sure I will really know until I try it. My goal for the year was to improve to B2, and I'm certainly stronger in the language than when I set the target, but self-evaluation is tough and inexact. Maybe I will run down a checklist as a year end evaluation. Meanwhile, I have no intention of setting Spanish aside. It is still the "important" language to me, and I hope I have reached the point where I can consume media in the language, practice conversation, and continue to improve. That's the plan, anyway.
4 x

User avatar
SCMT
Orange Belt
Posts: 245
Joined: Thu May 30, 2019 6:32 pm
Languages: Engilsh (N)
Spanish (Learning)
French (Beginning)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=10551
x 803

Re: 40something Spanish Log

Postby SCMT » Thu Nov 05, 2020 2:49 pm

As I said before, I'm listing the areas where my PMP grammar book showed I need some extra work on:

1. verbs that have irregular forms in future and conditional
2. verbs with irregular preterite forms
3. expressions
4. anything subjunctive

Also, although I undersand the rules, I need practice (expecially in conversation,) with:
1. choosing ser and estar in past tenses
2. choosing imperfect or preterite
3. double pronouns

I still have the subjunctive chapters to do in PMP, but afterwards I plan to go through my other workbooks and internet resources to find exercises on these topics, and i will try to stress them during sessions with my tutors as well.

Edit: also need to review irregular past participles
Last edited by SCMT on Fri Nov 06, 2020 5:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
2 x

Caromarlyse
Green Belt
Posts: 387
Joined: Fri Dec 06, 2019 2:31 pm
Languages: English (N), French (C1-ish), German (B2/C1-ish), Russian (B1-ish), Portuguese (B1-ish), Welsh (complete beginner), Spanish (in hibernation)
(All levels estimates and given as a guide only)
x 1611

Re: 40something Spanish Log

Postby Caromarlyse » Thu Nov 05, 2020 6:11 pm

In answer to your question about picking up a second Romance language, I started Spanish at school at age 16, when I was already studying French and German, and got them all to the same level two years later. The possibility of mixing them up wasn't even mentioned. I never really had a problem keeping them separate. I'm a pragmatist, so I'd just say go with your gut, and reassess if it's not working for you.

I too have a copy in English of One Hundred Years of Solitude. I was told by some Spaniards many moons ago how good it is, especially the language, so have put off reading it until I'm able to do so in Spanish. One day, one day... I had to read some of his short stories at school, and the obligation was probably the reason I didn't enjoy them...
4 x

User avatar
SCMT
Orange Belt
Posts: 245
Joined: Thu May 30, 2019 6:32 pm
Languages: Engilsh (N)
Spanish (Learning)
French (Beginning)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=10551
x 803

Re: 40something Spanish Log

Postby SCMT » Thu Nov 05, 2020 7:38 pm

Caromarlyse wrote:In answer to your question about picking up a second Romance language, I started Spanish at school at age 16, when I was already studying French and German, and got them all to the same level two years later. The possibility of mixing them up wasn't even mentioned. I never really had a problem keeping them separate. I'm a pragmatist, so I'd just say go with your gut, and reassess if it's not working for you.

I too have a copy in English of One Hundred Years of Solitude. I was told by some Spaniards many moons ago how good it is, especially the language, so have put off reading it until I'm able to do so in Spanish. One day, one day... I had to read some of his short stories at school, and the obligation was probably the reason I didn't enjoy them...


Thank you for your advice.

I do know that if I get something screwed up, it isn't permanent; I will just have to go back and do it again :roll: I've done that enough times already, in learning languages and just about everything else, so I now consider it part of the fun!
1 x

User avatar
SCMT
Orange Belt
Posts: 245
Joined: Thu May 30, 2019 6:32 pm
Languages: Engilsh (N)
Spanish (Learning)
French (Beginning)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=10551
x 803

Re: 40something Spanish Log

Postby SCMT » Mon Nov 09, 2020 2:56 pm

I had two italki sessions since the last update. With my main tutor, we discussed a listening comprehension exercise on Area 51, as well as a famous alien sighting that happened near my hometown. There was quite a bit of new vocab, as extraterrestres are not something that come up in most of my everyday conversations. I discussed the wacky world of Casa de las Flores episode 7 with my conversation tutor, and I've watched episode 8 once. I'm usually not into shows like this, but I have to admit that I have liked watching it and will be a little sad to see it go (there are 11 in season 3.*) The exercise has been good, watching it with subtitles and without, looking for certain constructions and vocabulary, etc., and I am much better and parsing native speech with subs turned on. I still am not happy with my comprehension without them, though. I probably need to just make the jump and watch a show without, even if it takes multiple viewings and lots of stopping and starting, but that really doesn't sound like a lot of fun. If anybody has a pill that improves listening comprehension, I'll take it.

I finished PMP Chapter 18 on the passive voice, both with estar and reflexive pronouns. It isn't difficult, but Spanish seems to use it more and differently than English, so more exposure and a brush up is a good thing. It makes the language feel indirect, or roundabout to me, especially in reading, and it's something that I know I will probably never get exactly like a native speaker, but I do need to become more comfortable with it. I have two chapters left, both on aspects of the subjunctive. I've also continued through Breaking Out, which I am still enjoying.

I am 53% finished with Los Mares del Sur, which is not as much progress as I'd like. I may try to find something non-fiction for the next libro. I have watched the news in Spanish a couple of times and read Spanish language newspapers pretty much every day.

I think my plan for French is probably to start with the new year, although if I cheat and learn a little bit early, that will be OK.




* That's a simple sentence, right? "I'm usually not into shows like this, but I have to admit that I have liked watching it and will be a little sad to see it go." It's the kind of thing that pops up in everyday conversation and internet forums and such. How many different tenses are in that? I see habitual past actions, future with a helping verb, and two very different constructions using have. And studying Spanish has made me want to deconstruct the sentence to see how I would translate it, which I think may be a sign that my brain is bent. " Usualmente, no me gustan programmas como esto, pero tengo que admitir que me ha gustado verlo y yo estará un poco triste para verlo terminar." Something like that?
2 x

User avatar
MorkTheFiddle
Black Belt - 2nd Dan
Posts: 2113
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2015 8:59 pm
Location: North Texas USA
Languages: English (N). Read (only) French and Spanish. Studying Ancient Greek. Studying a bit of Latin. Once studied Old Norse. Dabbled in Catalan, Provençal and Italian.
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 11#p133911
x 4823

Re: 40something Spanish Log

Postby MorkTheFiddle » Mon Nov 09, 2020 6:44 pm

SCMT wrote:I still am not happy with my comprehension without them, though. I probably need to just make the jump and watch a show without, even if it takes multiple viewings and lots of stopping and starting, but that really doesn't sound like a lot of fun. If anybody has a pill that improves listening comprehension, I'll take it.
My advice is to pick something you really, really, really, really like.
My choices for doing this in French were the stories of Anna Gavalda and in French with Cien Años de Soledad. One of Gavalda's stories I listened to 24 times. Admittely, even a likeable story can get old 24 times. :) But I'm not trying to flog Gavalda or García Márquez. Just whomever you like. And writer, TV show, movie, whatever.
0 x
Many things which are false are transmitted from book to book, and gain credit in the world. -- attributed to Samuel Johnson

User avatar
SCMT
Orange Belt
Posts: 245
Joined: Thu May 30, 2019 6:32 pm
Languages: Engilsh (N)
Spanish (Learning)
French (Beginning)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=10551
x 803

Re: 40something Spanish Log

Postby SCMT » Mon Nov 09, 2020 7:26 pm

MorkTheFiddle wrote:
SCMT wrote:I still am not happy with my comprehension without them, though. I probably need to just make the jump and watch a show without, even if it takes multiple viewings and lots of stopping and starting, but that really doesn't sound like a lot of fun. If anybody has a pill that improves listening comprehension, I'll take it.
My advice is to pick something you really, really, really, really like.
My choices for doing this in French were the stories of Anna Gavalda and in French with Cien Años de Soledad. One of Gavalda's stories I listened to 24 times. Admittely, even a likeable story can get old 24 times. :) But I'm not trying to flog Gavalda or García Márquez. Just whomever you like. And writer, TV show, movie, whatever.


Thanks. I know it is probably necessary, but I just haven't committed fully to doing it. I have spurts of listening to my podcast, sometimes as many as 3 times per ~15 minute section, but I know I need more and more better. There is also a marked difference, at least to me, in someone speaking to me, whether in an italki lesson, a conversation, on a newscast, or on a podcast, and trying to catch all of a conversation between others, such as watching a tv show or movie. Both situations need improvement, but the latter is far more difficult.

Out of curiosity, were you listening to these stories read to you, like in a book on tape, or were they enactments? I haven't really tried the book on tape method yet--a 20th century term for whatever digital audiobooks are called now--but I can see where there would be differences between listening to literature read than listening to someone talk about popular science in a podcast, for example, and both would be different from a scene acted out in audio or on video.
1 x


Return to “Language logs”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: DaveAgain, tastyonions and 3 guests