Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby vogeltje » Fri Feb 10, 2017 1:05 am

Iversen wrote:You are welcome to post your tunes here - then you can make a "Vogeltje's greatest" like the big bands later on in your own log simply by copying the references from the edit box. I'll listen to the new recordings later - right now I'm listening to a totally forgotten symphony by a totally forgotten composer named Fesca.


Thanks, I will post them in your log then. Poor Fesca that his symphony was totally forgotten :cry: it's lucky that you remembered it. :)


jeff_lindqvist wrote:
vogeltje wrote:Maybe you or Jeff know the tunes. I don't know if they are famous ones.


O'Carolan's Welcome - https://thesession.org/tunes/1055 (this kind of repertoire is known by everyone but not common in sessions)
Drowsy Maggie - https://thesession.org/tunes/27 (perhaps the #1 reel which everyone knows but nobody plays)
The third one sounds Scottish, and it's not a tune I know.
Peter Street - https://thesession.org/tunes/1171 (a Scottish reel)
Majofis - https://thesession.org/tunes/7881 / https://thesession.org/tunes/8084 (perhaps the #1 klezmer tune which everyone knows)


wow, you knew them!!!

    1) yes, "Carolan's Air" it's called in my book.
    2) yes. "Drowsy Maggie" exactly this title and it says "Reel (traditional Irish)"
    3) "The flower of the quern" from the Ceilidh Collection James scott Skinner
    4) Yes a Scottish Reel, but in my book it's called "Timour the Tartar"
    5) the klezmer one is called "Dance! Dance!" from The Klezmer Fiddler traditional Jewish.

what do you mean that nobody plays? or not common in sessions?

At the moment i only want to practise the violin all the time.
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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby jeff_lindqvist » Fri Feb 10, 2017 6:38 pm

vogeltje wrote:wow, you knew them!!!

Well, I've played this music for nearly 26 years now... (And I even knew the klezmer tune! I picked it up from a CD in 1995, I think.)

vogeltje wrote:what do you mean that nobody plays? or not common in sessions?


Drowsy Maggie is one of those tunes which many who play Irish music (in the whole world) have learned when they started off, but eventually got tired of playing. If you go to sessions in Ireland, you'll find that some tunes are played more often than others, but everything depends a lot on the session itself, who are present, the level of the musicians, and possibly the region. While Drowsy Maggie might be too cliché (as one of the first reels many learn), O'Carolans Welcome might feel too "serious" and more of a "piece" than something which 5-10 musicians would play together (harmonically, the tunes are miles apart, and the latter sounds somewhat "classical"). Of course people play them in sessions, but I don't think I've ever started Drowsy Maggie in a session (there are hundreds of other tunes within the same E dorian mode I prefer playing). As for O'Carolan's Welcome - now and then somebody strikes up one of those pretty tunes (I learned it in May 1993).

Iversen - apologies for hijacking the thread - hopefully you get something out of my musical ramblings.
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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby Iversen » Fri Feb 10, 2017 8:45 pm

I find those musical ramblings quite entertaining - but Irish and Scottish folk tunes are definitely Jeff's home turf, not mine. I'm more into classical instrumental music with an opus number and a composer name attached. I have spent the last couple of hours listening through my Halvorsen files (Norwegian romanticism), and before that I listened to baroque music by Hellendaal and wrote down the themes to some of the items - but then there was a piece for cello and piano in one of the files which shouldn't be there, and when I consulted my change history archive I found out that it was a movement from a piece of the Dutch composer Fesch, and then I moved it to the relevant file. OK, you see what my time is going with. I sit down to do a wordlist, and suddenly I'm researching Dutch baroque music instead...

By the way, I have now made an account at the IMSLP site where you can find scores (and sometimes parts) for hundreds of thousand pieces of music in the pubic domain. So far I have only just used their collections as a reference while filling out the holes in my theme catalogue for my music collection - but as it happens they also accept music uploaded by composers if you just put it there on a non-commercial basis - and since I have no expectation whatsoever of ever earning a cent from my old compositions I don't lose anything by making some of it public. They have a 24 hour delay before you can post, so I'll try uploading something either tomorrow or Sunday.

By the way, speaking about folk tunes - or things that sound like folktunes: you might have a bit of oldfashioned fun with mister Playford and his dances from the tudor period - there are hundreds of items from his collections on Youtube - and the music sheets are of course to be found on IMSLP, albeit in a version with just the melodies written down.

LA: Asterigem sine interruptioni ad finem perduxi, et nunc novum item nocte lectoriandum eligere debeo. Forsitan eligo Harrigem Potterem rursus aggredi. Librum secundum seriei habeo (de camera secretorum narrationem) et iam legi, sed credo etim librum primum translationi latinae extare esse. In urbo meo est taberna libellis pictographicis dedicata, et fortasse ibi etiam libellas latinas habent - aliter emendabilis per interrete certe est (aut per bibliotheca publica urbi meae obtinanda est).

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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby vogeltje » Fri Feb 10, 2017 9:26 pm

jeff_lindqvist wrote:Drowsy Maggie is one of those tunes which many who play Irish music (in the whole world) have learned when they started off, but eventually got tired of playing. If you go to sessions in Ireland, you'll find that some tunes are played more often than others, but everything depends a lot on the session itself, who are present, the level of the musicians, and possibly the region. While Drowsy Maggie might be too cliché (as one of the first reels many learn), O'Carolans Welcome might feel too "serious" and more of a "piece" than something which 5-10 musicians would play together (harmonically, the tunes are miles apart, and the latter sounds somewhat "classical"). Of course people play them in sessions, but I don't think I've ever started Drowsy Maggie in a session (there are hundreds of other tunes within the same E dorian mode I prefer playing). As for O'Carolan's Welcome - now and then somebody strikes up one of those pretty tunes (I learned it in May 1993).

Iversen - apologies for hijacking the thread - hopefully you get something out of my musical ramblings.


Thanks for the infos!! I've never heard of sessions, so I don't know how it goes.

I like the ones like O'Carolan, incredible that you rememebr that you learned it in May 1993. It's very exact haha :lol: I was 1 year old when you learned it.


Iversen wrote:but Irish and Scottish folk tunes are definitely Jeff's home turf, not mine. I'm more into classical instrumental music with an opus number and a composer name attached.


Me too. I love Brahms, Puccini, Chopin, Mendelssohn, Schubert, Strauß (Richard not the annoying Johann) etc and Mozart piano concertos, but I hate his operas. I like Puccini operas, but not all the songs. I like Bach for example concerto for 2 violins and Dvorak.

I like some pop music as well.

I liked playing those irish and Scottish tunes, but they aren't my favourite music. I want to buy some more music with CD and I am looking for "classical'


Iversen wrote:By the way, I have now made an account at the IMSLP site where you can find scores (and sometimes parts) for hundreds of thousand pieces of music in the pubic domain. So far I have only just used their collections as a reference while filling out the holes in my theme catalogue for my music collection - but as it happens they also accept music uploaded by composers if you just put it there on a non-commercial basis - and since I have no expectation whatsoever of ever earning a cent from my old compositions I don't lose anything by making some of it public. They have a 24 hour delay before you can post, so I'll try uploading something either tomorrow or Sunday.


so we can see your music soon :)

Iversen wrote:LA: Asterigem sine interruptioni ad finem perduxi, et nunc novum item nocte lectoriandum eligere debeo. Forsitan eligo Harrigem Poterrem rursus aggredi. Librum secundum seriei habeo (de camera secretorum narrationem) et iam legi, sed credo etim librim primum translationi latinae extare esse. In urbo meo est taberna libellia pixtographicis dedicata, et fortasse ibi etiam libellas latinas habent - aliter emendabilis per interrete est (aut per bibliotheca publicam urbi obtinanda sit).


Forsitan eligo Harrigem Poterrem rursus aggredi. :lol: hahahahahaha
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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby jeff_lindqvist » Fri Feb 10, 2017 10:18 pm

Iversen wrote:By the way, speaking about folk tunes - or things that sound like folktunes: you might have a bit of oldfashioned fun with mister Playford and his dances from the tudor period - there are hundreds of items from his collections on Youtube - and the music sheets are of course to be found on IMSLP, albeit in a version with just the melodies written down.


Yes! We had fun with some of the tunes at a session last April (the 19th to be exact), and afterwards I found the whole shebang transcribed to ABC and as a facsimile. Folk groups from England sometimes have such tunes on the repertoire (and they're not always as "strict" as the Irish bands - if someone happens to play bassoon or cor anglais, fine!).
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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby Iversen » Sun Feb 12, 2017 1:00 am

I have not studied languages today, apart from watching German television programs for a couple of hours. Instead I have been reviewing some of the pdf files with old compositions which I intend to publish at the IMSLP site - and I found that some had errors blotted over with dark ink spots, others had slanted lines, and some of the piano works would become more readable if I reduced the number of measures per stave by moving them around - and it has taken me most of the day to do those things for a number of works. I have also had a brief peek at my orchestral writing and decided that it generally is too complex - each instrument has a part that is almost as independent as those in my chamber music, but what sounds well for 3-4 instruments will sound like an impenetrable cacophony when you try the same thing with twenty instruments. Unfortunately I don't have time for this rewriting project since I don't want to sacrifice my language studies or other activities (and on top of that: I wouldn't be able to listen to music while doing it, and that include those TV programs that have background sound pollution - and they are in the majority!). But there is still a fair amount of old stuff that basically is OK and just needs a minor cleaning operation before they get a kick in the butt and are sent headlong out in the world.

I studied the "LIE as a polyglot" thread and there I suddenly saw a message from december, written by Anthony Lauder ('Splog' from HTLAL and a hilariously entertaining lecturer at the polyglot conferences in Budapest and Thessaloniki). He wrote the following:

AnthonyLauder wrote:when (...) most of us are reading we can "hear" the words in our heads, but several super successful polyglots have told me that they hear words they are reading, not in their heads, but in their ears. So, reading practice is listening practice. I was inspired by studies on top level music composers, who don't need to listen to music to hear it. According to research, they can read sheet music and hear the music in their ears. Astonishingly, neuroscientists have discovered that when these people are not imagining this. It is really happening. The connection from the brain to the ear works with them in both directions. That is, when they read, or even think of, sheet music, it triggers vibration of the tiny hairs in the ear that would have been triggered if they were actually listening to the music. (...)
They also have another similarity to composers, who listen to music and see the music score in their mind's eye. Some of the polyglots told me that when they hear people speaking, they see "subtitles" in their mind, which they can read.


That really got me thinking - and thinking along several lines of thought. First, it is a wellknown fact that the same brain centers that are used for looking at things also are active when you dream and when you imagine things. I would however not expect the visual rods in my eyes to be activated just because I dream or imagine something so it would be a real surprise if the small hairs in my ears began to flicker and flap just because I read something text or recalled the sound of a piece of music. But it would be totally logically if the same centers in the brain were activated as when I listen to real living people or to music through my headphones.

As for the habits of composers it seems that there are two kinds: some composers have invented their works at the piano and maybe even written a piano score first, which they then orchestrated (or let somebody else orchestrate - apparently a very common, but despicable phenomenon in the film industry). Others wrote their works with their pen and nothing else while sitting in a comfy chair. OK, that doesn't exclude the possibility that they jotted down a piano version first, but for these composers it seems to be more common that they wrote a 'short score', i.e. a version that didn't have all the note staves from the beginning, but just enough lines to indicate the main instruments - and then they made their final version when they were satisfied with the short score. To work this way it is obviously necessary to be able to imagine a fairly realistic version of some music that doesn't exist yet - and that means that these composers also need to have at least some degree of absolute (or perfect) pitch, i.e. they need to know how a given pitch sounds - otherwise they will be in for nasty surprises when they hear people play their creations. Conductors also need to be able to hear a work in their mind before confronting an orchestra, so it isn't totally unheard of to have those skills. But I am profoundly sceptical about the claim that the small hairs in their inner ears start moving.

The other interesting point in Anthony's message is the claim that some language learners see subtitles floating in the air when they listen to speech. I know at least one situation where I do that, namely when I 'listen like a bloodhound' - which is defined as listening for the subdivisions and other structures in speech without caring about the meaning. If you can subdivide speech in your mind then you can't distinguish the words or other meaningbearing units, and that's not OK. The problem is that most language teachers expect you to listen for the meaning from the beginning, where I expect the meaning of known words to pop up automatically so it is more logical to go for the ability to parse the stream of sounds first - and then when you have learned enough words the meaning will come almost by itself. And when I do this I actually see lines with tentative spellings flicker past my inner eye. But not when I listen to languages I know well.

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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby Iversen » Tue Feb 14, 2017 2:13 am

EO: Mi ankoraŭ uzas la plejparto de mia tempo pri muziko. La aktuala projekto estas eldoni la miajn verkojn en IMSPL, sed nur tiujn kiu pretas por ĝi - kaj neniuj ne estis pretaj. Boff! Multaj havis malbelajn korektojn aŭ malrektan paĝoj aŭ tro densoskribitajn (kaj sekve nelegeblajn) ejojn. Do mi purigis iujn el la nodoj, noveskribis aliajn, dum multaj aliaj devos atendi ĉar mi opinias ke la muziko mem estas ŝanĝiĝinda. Mi alŝutis la unuaj verkoj en sabato, kaj eĉ hieraŭ ne estis disponeblaj, sed nun unu moderista sur la retejo aprobitigis ilin, tiel ke nun mia paĝo kun la unua stako de opusoj estas videbla. Mi aldonis plurajn opus nombroj hieraŭ kaj tiu nokto, kaj ili ne povas vidi ankoraŭ. Mi ankoraŭ havas almenaŭ dek verkojn kiuj sen neakceptebla elspezo de tempo povis farigitaj akcepteblaj por publikigo.

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...and if you think the piece above has a weird rhythm then you are right: it is written in 8/8 with groups of 3 + 3+ 2 which come in different order in each measure. The inspiration came from listening to folk music from the Balkan peninsula. The funny thing is that I played it with several amateur flutists - and they all learnt it very fast because I played their lines for them on the cello. Which of course can be seen as an argument for listening from the beginning also when you learn languages. It should however be noted that the concrete problem here was to teach my co-players the complicated rhythm of a specific piece of music - not to teach them to play the flute in general.
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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby vogeltje » Tue Feb 14, 2017 7:58 pm

Iversen wrote:...and if you think the piece above has a weird rhythm then you are right: it is written in 8/8 with groups of 3 + 3+ 2 which come in different order in each measure. The inspiration came from listening to folk music from the Balkan peninsula. The funny thing is that I played it with several amateur flutists - and they all learnt it very fast because I played their lines for them on the cello. Which of course can be seen as an argument for listening from the beginning also when you learn languages. It should however be noted that the concrete problem here was to teach my co-players the complicated rhythm of a specific piece of music - not to teach them to play the flute in general.


It's complicated that it's not always 3 + 3 + 2, but sometimes, or 3 + 2 + 3 etc the players better concentrate or they will muddle up.

Yes, excalty, the listening and reading argument. I've heard people say that you shouldn't read music when you learn an instrument becuase you didn't learn to read to learn your native language. I don't agree with that at all becuase they are not the same thing. I think that they are the Suzuki people who don't like to read music. I can't memorise the music on an instrument, but I can read it fluently. If I didn't have the notes on the music part, I wouldn't be able to play and anyway I like reading the music. If you can't read the music, only play by ear, how can you play with the CD or learn a new piece? You must learn it from another person, but you haven't got your teacher at home!!!

I havne't played the violin since last week. I'm too stressed etc. I hope that i will play it again this week and I will record some more pieces from the first book.
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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby jeff_lindqvist » Tue Feb 14, 2017 10:13 pm

vogeltje wrote:Yes, excalty, the listening and reading argument. I've heard people say that you shouldn't read music when you learn an instrument becuase you didn't learn to read to learn your native language. I don't agree with that at all becuase they are not the same thing. I think that they are the Suzuki people who don't like to read music. I can't memorise the music on an instrument, but I can read it fluently. If I didn't have the notes on the music part, I wouldn't be able to play and anyway I like reading the music. If you can't read the music, only play by ear, how can you play with the CD or learn a new piece? You must learn it from another person, but you haven't got your teacher at home!!!

I havne't played the violin since last week. I'm too stressed etc. I hope that i will play it again this week and I will record some more pieces from the first book.


No, you don't have to learn it from a person - just play the recording! (That's the way I learned most of my repertoire.) I listen and do my best to adapt and play along. I probably won't get all of it the first time through, but I'll definitely get more the second time through, the third time et.c. If we're talking Irish trad music, a tune like the Drowsy Maggie (which you recorded) will be picked up by any decent musician after a few listens. I can read and write music, but it's less likely to stick if I just play what I see. Other aspects include the fact that written music doesn't cover "everything", and that you'll never (ever!) play this kind of music with other people if you have to rely on written music. We're not mutants with superpowers, we've just learned to use our ears.
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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby Iversen » Fri Feb 17, 2017 11:49 pm

I have spent a couple of days writing parts for some of the things I am going to upload (and in some cases already have uploaded). The problem is that I am inherently incapable of resisting the temptation to make small improvements, and that makes the whole process much more time consuming than it ought to be. A problem linked to this syndrome is that I can't do those revisions if I hear music, and if I don't have something running in the background I can hear irritating sounds from lowly places in the surrounding (like the flat of my neighbour), so I do watch television, but I have to renounce on viewing my usual fare of documentaries since they practically all are infested with background music noise. Instead I have watched news program etc., and I have had my Montenegrin program running for hours because they have interminable conversations in a language I could benefit from listening more to (well, maybe not Serbian, but a close cousin). And lo and behold, I have even had the telly showing a game called snooker - though it still baffles me why anybody can be so fascinated by coloured balls falling down in small holes so that you need a servant to pick them up and put them back on the green cloth - why not just leave them there??

So .... preciously little language study going on right now here, but the problems I have with finding either total silence or inoffensive (i.e. music free) soundscapes will almost certainly guarantee that I won't be caught up by my current musical activities forever. They are simply not practical in a music noise infested world. To be a composer today you have either to be deaf as Beethoven or live in the countryside, preferably near a waterfall to keep out other noises.

LA: Heri transtuli musicam pro ludo theatrali scriptam anno domini MCMLXXXVI ut sub ponte ferroviarie ludendam. Nomen ludi "Silentia non pendulum oscillare facet" erat, et histrionici mihi rogaverunt musicam scribere in stilo classico. Sed paucos musicos habebant, atque igitur etiam mihi necesse erat interfui musicae quam fidicen, ludendo violoncellonum. Quid non facis ut musicam suam audere??

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