Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

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Iversen
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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby Iversen » Sat Nov 21, 2020 1:01 pm

I haven't written anything since Monday for a good reason: I have been away on a short trip to some of the towns whose museums I didn't visit this summer. I had expected to do some wordlists or read/study some texts in the evenings, but forgot to bring the requisite materials along. So for the first three evenings I did watch TV in Danish, Swedish, Nowegian, German and English - including a program on National Geographic about pirate wrecks - it seems that now those of Henry Morgan, captain Kidd and Blackbeard have been found and identified. And then I have watched some Danish news broadcasts - they were mostly occupied with the aftermath of the mink scandal, in which now also the police top has been involved - it seems that even after they had seen that the lack of legal basis had been published they instructed lower ranking police staff to bully, lie to and threaten the reluctant minkfarmers to kill their animals. But I didn't get any studying done, and I was restricted to languages where I didn't really need that extra training.

Then yesterday, while I was looking for some other papers in my bag I happened to find an old bilingual text collection in Slovak, so yesterday evening I finally could do some work on a language that wasn't one of the 'old ones' which I know well.

SLK: Prečo boli texty v mojej taške? Môže to byť spôsobené posledným článkom o pektíne. Pektín je látka okrem iného v jablkách, ktorá umožňuje džemom stuhnúť. Bobule ho nemajú, a tak sme s mamou kupovali prášok (melatín), keď sme začiatkom roka robili džemy. Ale článok, ktorý som včera večer študoval, bol o motýľoch.

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EN: I have also made some notes from some of my dreams. Yesterday morning I woke up from a dream, where I gave homework help in French to members of a French (!) family -I have forgotten why, but the idea is quite preposterous. And then suddenly a father or uncle came into the room, and I somehow knew he came from Colombia, and then I said a whole lot in Spanish to him. And after that I woke up. Presumably my dream family was relieved to get rid of me, but they didn't protest while they had the chance.

Wednesday morning I had an even more bizarre dream, but I only remember one fragment clearly: I was studying an old text in latin letters. I recognized some letters from Anglosaxon, like þ and Ð, but the text didn't look like Beowulf or the Anglosaxon Chronicle, and it was definitely not in Old Norse. I then wondered whether it could be Old Saxon, in which I have read some chronicles several years ago, but then it shouldn't have those extra letters. I finally concluded that it had to be Western Gothic and woke up. This dubious conclusion is the reason I call this dream bizarre: there are hardly any texts in preserved in Western Gothic (or Visigothic), and Wulfila's bible in Ostrogothic used another alphabet. So the correct conclusion would be that it clearly is possible to read in a dream, but reading stuff in Anglosaxon may be a little bit too hard - at least for me..

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As you can see they definitely don't look alike - incomprehensible that I could mix them up - even in a dream
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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby Montmorency » Sun Nov 22, 2020 9:12 pm

Hi Iversen,

Have you by any chance studied Czech, as a separate language?

Thanks,
M.
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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby jeff_lindqvist » Sun Nov 22, 2020 10:44 pm

Iversen wrote:Then yesterday, while I was looking for some other papers in my bag I happened to find an old bilingual text collection in Slovak, so yesterday evening I finally could do some work on a language that wasn't one old the 'old ones' which I know well.

SLK: Prečo boli texty v mojej taške? Môže to byť spôsobené posledným článkom o pektíne. Pektín je látka okrem iného v jablkách, ktorá umožňuje džemom stuhnúť. Bobule ho nemajú, a tak sme s mamou kupovali prášok (melatín), keď sme začiatkom roka robili džemy. Ale článok, ktorý som včera večer študoval, bol o motýľoch.


With threads like these, I don't need to configure my OS or browser to change the interface language every time I log on.

I just have to check out your latest post. A new language every time!
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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby Iversen » Sun Nov 22, 2020 11:37 pm

jeff_lindqvist wrote:With threads like these, I don't need to configure my OS or browser to change the interface language every time I log on.
I just have to check out your latest post. A new language every time!

I don't have to reconfigure anything: I use the Lexilogos virtual keyboard to write in other languages, not a new keyboard setup for each new language. And I have long since advised readers to use Google Translate to read texts in languages they haven't learnt yet - that's what I do when people write in for instance Chinese or Korean.

And Czech? I have not really studied Czech, but I know a little bit of Slovak and even less Polish, and therefore I can spell my way through simple Czech texts with a dictionary and even better: a translation. For good measure I own a Langenscheidt pocket dictionary and a grammar from Routledge (which I actually have read). In spite of my low skill level I have read one full book in Czech (about language learning), which I got as a gift from the author himself during on of the gatherings in Bratislava. But this happened before my bookshelves toppled over earlier this year, and when I tried to find it again today I couldn't. It must be somewhere, however, and when I find it again I'll report about it here.

GR: Με τον τρόπο: Ξέχασα εχθές να αναφέρω ότι κατά τη διάρκεια μιας ώρας παύσης μεταξύ των δύο μουσείων στην πόλη Στρούερ της Δανίας, κατάφερα να διαβάσω περίπου το 40% του ελληνικού κειμένου του R.Hesse για αρχάριους. Θα ήταν 60% αν οι βιβλιοθηκονόμοι δεν είχαν αρχίσει να χτίζουν τη χριστουγεννιάτικη διακόσμηση τους ακριβώς δίπλα μου - στα μέσα Νοεμβρίου!

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Since I returned from my mini-holiday yesterday I have spent a lot of time organizing the fotos I took - which includes discarding at least two thirds and editing many of those that survived and writing texts and a few things more. But today I have also surfed a little bit, and for once I did cope the links to a file so that I can trace my journey afterwards.

To start such a chain I first decide on a 'seed', a word which I put into Google and then something comes out of the search. Today it was 'sabretoothed cat' and then I got sucked into the multilingual Wikipedia world. First to an article in English - where I was brutally reminded that the name is SABERtoothed cat (albeit sabretoothed is marginally allowed, but apparently frowned upon). And from there to Icelandic, where those animals are called "sverðkettir", and from there onwards along a byway to a related animal group called sparassodonta, where I read articles in English, Spanish and Portuguese - the latter with a clades table (I dig those!). And then onwards to another related group, Didelphidae, which includes some quite alive and kicking opossum rats from Southamerica. But then I noticed an extinct group called nimravids (which gave associations to the great hunter Nimrud and the Sumerian town of the same name), and then I read about them in English, Catalan (brief) and Russian - and this last article contained the photo below of a complete Hoplophoneus skeleton in a museum in Ueno, Japan. What a sweet little critter! Unfortunately I couldn't look this museum up in the Japanese Wikipedia (Japanese is outside my comfort zone), but I still thinks this brief and incomplete overview shows why I mostly comment on short texts which I have studied intensively. Trying to summarize a long and sinuous surfing session in just a few succinct and clear words is not easy at all..

Concerning the sabertoothed somethinganimals, suffice to say that there has been at least five wawes of carnivorous animals with large sabrelike fangs (starting with pre-mammalian gorgonopsids from the Permian), and most of them have not been particularly close relatives to true cats - and there has NEVER existed sabertoothed tigers.

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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby dampingwire » Mon Nov 23, 2020 12:43 am

Iversen wrote: First to an article in English - where I was brutally reminded that the name is SABERtoothed cat (albeit sabretoothed is marginally allowed, but apparently frowned upon).


I didn't see the frowning in that article. I assume the sabre/saber split is a US/UK thing.

Anyway when I were a lad, they were tigers not cats. I did wander off to the Japanese wikipedia page where they are 剣歯虎, so sword-tooth-tiger. So my childhood memories weren't as far off as I might have been led to believe!
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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby jeff_lindqvist » Mon Nov 23, 2020 6:10 am

Iversen wrote:I don't have to reconfigure anything: I use the Lexilogos virtual keyboard to write in other languages, not a new keyboard setup for each new language. And I have long since advised readers to use Google Translate to read texts in languages they haven't learnt yet - that's what I do when people write in for instance Chinese or Korean.


I wasn't thinking of keyboards, just the interface and possibly a random article in a random language. Your thread solves the latter. :)
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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby Iversen » Mon Nov 23, 2020 9:23 am

So the Japanese call them tigers? Well, since I can't read Japanese I didn't know that. But it is still wrong. That will of course not change the situation over there, and English words like "shellfish" about something that definitely isn't a fish shows that the problem is global. By the way, even the scientific system with international Latin names has its funny quirks. Like for instance that the Malagassian carnivore "fossa" (Cryptoprocta ferox) isn't a member of the genus Fossa - the only living member of that one is the Madagascar civet (Fossa fossana). I have already some time ago mentioned that the genus 'Mammut' doesn't comprise the wellknown wholly mammoth (Mammuthus primigenius) - that genus is reserved for mastodontes - but now I can add that it isn't even a member of the subfamily 'mammutidae' within the Proboscidae family - it belongs to the Elephantidae, and its nearest living relative is actually the Indian elephant.

Modern genetic analysis has also wreaked havoc among the birds. For instance it is now commonly accepted that the American birds of prey are more closely related to storks than to their Eurasian and African namesakes. As for 'saber' it seems to be an American spelling, but even in the States I guess 'sabre' would be the normal spelling for the weapon - and therefore it irks me to see se variant 'saber' used about poor defenceless animals that also lived thousands of kilometers away from the centre of the world, which for this purpose seems to be located in the La Brea Tar pit in Los Angeles.

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SW: Det gläder mig att jag kan göra Jeff en tjänst genom att upprätthålla en konsistent multiförvirrad tråd :P - och den beskrivna övningen med Google-uppslag som början på en surfningskedja ger mig min dagliga inmatning av språklig kaos. Jag gillar emellertid inte att ändra på mine gränssnitt - min klocka på väggen har ställts in på tyska från början och klockan i mitt sovrum är inställd på franska - mest av en tillfällighet, men så blir det. Mina datorer prater danska och engelska, men jag tippar inte med tangentbordsdrivrutinen - den måste vara på danska, annars blir jag helt förvirrad ock tipper fel, och sedan använder jag ett virtuellt tangentbord fra internettet för att kunna skriva kyrilliska och grekiska och de speciella rumänska tecknen och de inverterade spanska frågetecken och utropstecken och så vidare. Lyckligtvis kan ett dansk tangentbord skriva de portugisiska bokstäverna med tilde och svenska och tyska og albanske ord med Umlaut (eller vad det nu heter på svenska).

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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby jeff_lindqvist » Mon Nov 23, 2020 4:32 pm

Iversen wrote:Lyckligtvis kan ett dansk tangentbord skriva de portugisiska bokstäverna med tilde och svenska och tyska og albanske ord med Umlaut (eller vad det nu heter på svenska).


DK: Vi siger ikke umlaut, vi siger simpelthen 'prikker'. (Og som en ekstra lille øvelse vil jeg måske kige på en dansk tv-serie i aften, en eller anden episode.)
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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby Montmorency » Mon Nov 23, 2020 11:22 pm

Thanks for the reply re: Czech Iversen. I happened to find this video by chance which interested me, and may interest you:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JojFY6BHdTo

Why did Czechoslovakia split up? (Prečo sa Československo rozdelilo?)

Slovak audio, Slovak and English text within the video (not subtitles).
(8 minutes).

I don't think I'd heard any Slovak before, and it sounded a bit different to what I expected.
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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby Iversen » Wed Nov 25, 2020 2:38 pm

I don't understand much spoken Slovak and even less Czech - those two are primarily written languages for me, and it will take a barrage of listening to change that. However I mentioned a Czech book a few days ago, and after some searching I found it: " How to study a foreign language successfully" by Ivan Kupka, who donated a copy of it to me during the second gathering in Bratislava. I have laboriously worked my way through it once, but intend to give it a second overhaul soon - I have still not studied Czech, but my Slovak should be slightly better now than in 2018. That should make the going easier...

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During the third and last one (where I did speak to other participants at the venue, but without entering through the gates to hell) I spent almost a week in Western Slovakia and Eastern Czechia visiting one zoo after the other, after which I continued to Lviv in Ukraine and Southern Poland where I visited even more zoos and spoke several sentences in the local languages to random available service persons. At the end of that perambulation I felt almost in tune with spoken common-ground-Slavic, but that feeling evaporated soon after my return home. Of course 'a vague feeling' is not the same as 'understanding', but it is a step in that direction, and with better and more focused preparation I might start speaking at least one of those languages.

I have now peroused my log up to page 120, and this actually encompasses not only the third and last gathering in 2019, but also my trip to Recife and Natal in Brazil (which gave my Portuguese an extra push towards Brazilian pronunciation habits). The fire in Notre Dame in Paris also happened during the relevant period. And of course I spent a lot of time on my music collection at the time, partly with the replacement of sonically inferior items, partly on listening to items or looking them up in IMSLP with the purpose of supplementing my theme collection. More about that on page 112.

I can't go through all the topics from that period, but I would mention the rant on the Yamnaya thing on the same page (112). You could say that the genes in male Y chromosomes in Western Europe were replaced by at least 2/3 with R1B1 haplogroup genes, somewhat less in Scandinavia because of a mix with N genes, much less in Finland where extremely old I genes still dominate - and also much less on Sardinia, which have made the scholars claim that the nearest relatives of Ice man Ötzi live on that island. But there the original language has been lost, whereas Finnish (and the Saami languages) may have been spoken in the relevant areas for more than 5000 years.

Another theme: transcriptions into and from Cyrillic. And on that note I pointed to the many names of Пётр Ильи́ч Чайко́вский (see below), commonly rendered as "Tchaikovsky" in English - but as you can see with your own eyes, the last -y is an outright error. In my own collection I have chosen to consistently spell him as "Tschaikovskij" (though 'Tj.." would be simpler - I'll have to change that in all Russian composer names the next time I have a free day). I have also always wondered why the Russians render Latin 'h' as Cyrillic 'г', for instance in a certain town named 'Копенгаген' ('х' instead of the first 'г' would be closer)- but Greek transliterations may be even more mysterious: here the capital of Δανία is called "Κοπεγχάγη". OK, "γχ" is actually a fairly good and loyal transliteration GR:- αλλά ποιος πήρε την περίεργη ιδέα να αφήσει το όνομα να τελειώσει στο "η" όταν οι Έλληνες μπορούν πραγματικά να προφέρουν το τελικό "εν" (όπως στην άρνηση "δεν"); Αλλά υπάρχουν λιγότερο προφανείς περιπτώσεις όπως "Ουάσινγκτον" = "Washington" ή "Έντγουιν Χαμπλ" = "Edwin Hubble".

Image

And finally a silly (and slightly dirty) afterthought: I wrote on page 115 this German apocalyptic miseration:

GE: Wir werden älter und älter, aber immer mehr Jahre werden wir uns dann auch in einem erbärmlichen Zustand befinden, und es wird immer weniger junge Leute geben, die uns warten können (oder mögen). Die Lösung wird wahrscheinlich der Einsatz von Robotern sein. Das heißt: Wenn ich in 10-15 Jahren in meinem selbstschaukelnden Schaukelstuhl sitze und "Scheisse" sage, kommt ein Roboter und zieht mich zur Toilette.

Wenn ich dies heute lese, denke ich, daß so ein blöder Roboter dann eher kommt und Öl auf mich scheisst. Besser die volle Sats sagen und und den gewünschten Transport zu einer geeigneten Abfalldeponie erhalten. EN: As I recently wrote (in connection with the mink scandal): "(It) all goes to show that speedy and precise information is important in a crisis situation."

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