Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

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Iversen
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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby Iversen » Sun Jul 19, 2020 7:27 pm

This afternoon I studied a fairly short article about the origin of life in Bulgarian. It didn't teach me anything new on the subject, but I found it fairly easy. And last night when I listened to a quiz with Slavic participants I could understand a fair amount of the Bulgarian speech - more than the Czech and Polish speech, in fact. Therefore I came to think about what my level in the language might be on the only quantitative yardstick I've got, namely passive vocabulary.

I have made wordcounts for all my languages, but in most cases either around 2013 or 2016 - however I did a couple of counts for Bulgarian in 2019, and here I knew around half the headwords I looked at. One count was based on my Italian <--> Bulgarian Avaliardi, the other on my English <--> Bulgarian Lingua, but both are rather limited with somewhere between 7000 and 7500 headwords. I got respectively 52% and 50% known words which coresponds to roughly 3500 words, but I know from my tests with bigger dictionaries in other languages that the percentages remain relatively constant even with bigger dictionaries. You have to switch to truly enormous dictionaries (like my Spanish Bratli or the unabridged Webster), to see the percentages drop. And that means that I probably knew at least twice as many Bulgarian words - they just didn't figure in the dictionaries I used.

Then I just for fun made one more test based on the Lingua, and I landed at 52% again. Buggers - no progress? That's not my subjective impression, but I 'lost' a lot of words because several of my sample pages contained a lot of prefixed verbs, and it seems that I'm weaker in that part of the vocabulary than with simple verbs and substantives.

OK, when you have identified a problem you should think about ways to solve it. I first tried to make some lists for a few stems with different prefixes, but ran into the problem that many combinations weren't listed in the book. It would be nice to have a dictionary where each stem was shown with its derivations (like my Indonesian and Malaysian dictionaries), but I'm clearly not the one who should make it. So instead I just opted for making wordlists for verbs with a certain prefix (today it was раз-), and I hope that this in the long run will solve my problem.

And the rest of the evening I think I'll find some more Youtube videos with conversations in several Slavic languages - I need some listening training.

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Iversen
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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby Iversen » Sun Aug 02, 2020 9:26 pm

I have now finished the third leg of my 'corona-trips' through Denmark. Under the circumstances I had to drop my usual trips abroad this summer, and instead I leased a car for a month. During that month our government set money aside for 50.000 weeklong free-travel tickets at a very favorable prize, and I succeed in getting one of these. And after the end of the free week I hired a car for three days more, and that means that I all in all have spent almost 1½ month travelling around in Denmark. And those of you that know the country may know that it isn't a very big country so I have seen most parts of it now. Which is a perfect reason for not traveling anywhere for the next month or two, apart from family visits and daytours.

One thing that has struck me is the total lack of communicative skills in some cases, like for instance the stands at busstops that tell you how often the busses will pass by in certain periods of the day. The most ridiculous case was in a small town named Græsted, wher the text informed the user that there would be ONE bus between 9 and 15 o'clock - but not when it would pass by. The idea seems to be that only carriers of mobile phones are human beings that deserve to receive information. The sad thing is that it wouldn't be more complicated to write the approximate departure times - after all they don't change that often, and there should be room enough on such a sheet also to reveal when those much-coveted busses pass through during the summer period).

This tendency to keep information away from potential users is also infecting museum leaders. One particularly sad case of this kind can be seen in the illustration below - a museum with almost no objects, but visitors are provided with a gadget that tell stories about something in the room, but the things to look at in each room run out long before the babble stops.

My ideal of a museum is a house so filled with things that they almost make the walls burst. Like the museums which are created by private collectors, who realize that others might want to see their collections. These people are motivated by the sheer joy of collecting and showing things, whereas it seems that at least some professional museum people seem to expect their visitors to be grateful for whatever morsels they decide to dispense to them - and more grateful the less morsels they provide. Like Michelin restaurants who serve three peas and a slice of ecological cabbage on a plate the size of a medieval warrior's shield.

I don't like that - not even in language learning. That's why I hate modern textbooks with lots of games, but only dripwise information about things like grammar. I want to receive so much information that I can permit myself the luxury of disregarding some of it. Minimalism is idiotic.

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When I have been on the road I normally try to see as many things as possible, and then I make order of then during the evenings. That habit has a tendency to limit my study activities, but this time I actually brought along an old French-Romanian dictionary, and I have ... No let's take that in the relevant language, not in English.

RO: Am ales să aduc un dicționar foarte vechi, deoarece e foarte mic și nu ocupa prea mult spațiu în bagajele mele (care constă dintr-o mică geantă neagră - trecutul meu ca interailist nu se neagă). Dar ește din perioada anterioară reformei ortografice unde a fost înlocuită î neințiale de â. Și apoi am descoperit că există de fapt prea multe cuvinte franceze pe care nu le cunosc - sau chiar mai rău: pe al căror sens eu am cunoscut, dar acum l-am uitat. Așa că va trebui să fac liste de cuvinte franceze acum, unde sunt din nou acasă.

Totuși, în ultima săptămână a călătoriei mele, am luat 800 de cuvinte românești din acest dicționar, și da - am făcut repetiția pentru toate cele 800 de cuvinte. Dar acum ce am ajuns acasă, nu am avut timp să studiez - doar să îmi aranjez fotografiile și să scriu mici texte pentru fiecare zi. În limba daneză...

FR: D'ailleurs, sur l'une des feuilles avec des mots roumains j'ai noté quelques fragments d'un rêve en français: "poêle du poète" et "mort de la chienne". Dans le rêve, j'étais en Bretagne, et il s'agissait d'une sorte de plat de viande épicé qui était cuit dans une marmite comme celle de Panoramix ("Miraculix" en danois). Malheureusement, je ne me souviens pas du rôle du chien.

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Iversen
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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby Iversen » Mon Aug 03, 2020 10:42 pm

Three weeks ago I went to the weekly Language Café at our local Main Library. There were all in all six persons present, and I got a good chat in Italian.

Two weeks ago I went to the Language Café and apart from me nobody came - and for that I wasted half a day of my glorious free-travel card.

Today I nevertheless went again, and first we were just me and an elderly lady, but that alderly lady luckily wanted to chat in Italian, so that's what we did for an hour. A girl who wanted to speak French came after a while, but I had to say that I was occupied for at least an hour. But then a French family came, and it became definitely an hour - promise! Unfortunately the Frencophones didn't speak Italian, nor did the Italianophone elderly lady speak French, which illustrates the problems caused when we don't get a lot of participants OR the few that come speak each others' languages. A lad who wanted to speak English luckily arrived at the same time as a girl who wanted to train her Danish, but so also spoke English so they formed their own two-person English-cum-Danish group.

And then after an hour the lady from the French family was ready to have a chat in French and (rudimentary) Danish, while her husband entertained their two girls outside at the playfield. Actually that became a quite entertaining last hour (the whole thing is stipulated to last from 16:00 to 18:00) - so entertaining in fact that we continued for two hours until 19:00. She had just been in the country for two weeks, but was eager to learn Danish and had already done respectable progess in those two weeks (plus some studies with the telephone version of Assimil before arriving). I took that as an opportunity to demonstrate some selfstudy tricks like my three-column wordlist layout, and since she had mentioned Assimil I took to opportunity to laud its three layer translation layout: original, hyperliteral translation, 'pretty' (or literary) translation.

As you all know it is standard procedure among language pedagogues to lure learners into learning expressions in a target languages using only the LAST kind of translations - i.e. the kind where your socalled translation represent the thing a native speaker would have said in your own langauge. But that's just not good enough: to really get under the skin of those target language speaking foreigners you need to know what they ACTUALLY say, and not just what you would have said in the same situation in your own language.

So we went through a series of explanations where she said something in Danish and then got stuck, and then we discussd memory techniques for remembering the Danish expression or word she needed to continue the phrase. In some cases the trick simply was to want to say the thing using another expression or word in her native French because that corresponded better to the Danish expression or word she needed. And here I mentioned one trick using 'crutch' expressions in semiperfect French as memory hooks - we agreed on the the neologism "mots béquille" for that procedure. And then I could of course also provide some useful syntactical patterns for later use.

One example: we discussed how to translate "je voudrais" into a valid Danish expression. The simple answer is "jeg vil gerne...", and if the thing wanted is represented by an infinitive you can simply add it in both languages. However if it is substantival then you can just add it in French ("je voudrais un gâteau"), whereas this would sound very stilted and/or poetic in Danish - here you have to insert an infinitive before the substantive: "jeg vil gerne have/købe/smage- en kage". In English you can of course say "I would like to have a (piece of) cake, please", but methinks it would be more native-like just to cut corners and say "cake, please". And here we of cause also discussed the role of the Danish adverb "gerne", which in a sense adds the polite nuance provided by the use of a conditional in French (or "please" in English).

And thus we carried on for two hours, only with a pause at 18:00 when her husband and their two girls came to see whether their mother still was alive - and possibly even still sitting there discussing linguistic patterns in French (with some interspersed Danish) with some weird Dane. And she was. She even said that she actually had learned some useful things and might return in a week's time to have a lesson more. And then I almost felt like the spirit of Michel Thomas reincarnated...

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Iversen
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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby Iversen » Fri Aug 07, 2020 6:22 pm

I have just returned from a few days at my mother's place, and the big project this time was the pruning of her oversized Plumtree (some 5 meters high - at least). She called an acquaintance who owns a chainsaw, and then everything beyond the reach of a human being with a rake was cut off - roughly the upper half of the tree - and then my job was to cut the dropped items to small pieces and moving them to her compost mountain (it has definitely become a mountain now if it weren't before).

As you can see below the scarce remnants of the plumtree now exhibit certain leftist tendencies, but I'll do something about its skewed appearance later.

Added to other garden related activities, including sorting the contents of her freezer so that this years' harvest of berries (about 12 kg, including the plums I picked up this week) were moved to the bottom, leaving the elder berries at the top for consumption and marmelade production,this basically ate away most of the time I could have used for languages studies. So now you may expect that I can't report about any study activities at all, (FR) mais j'ai pu néanmoins trouver quelques heures pour faire des listes de mots en français - quoique le resultat fut assez restreint avec seulement 200 mots. Mais il fallait prioriser la taille du prunier.

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Iversen
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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby Iversen » Sun Aug 09, 2020 9:30 pm

Yesterday I didn't study languages - I made fair copies of the themes I have jotted down for items in my music collection, scanned them and added the scans to the theme collection that accompanies it. And that took a whole day.

Today I listened to music, but didn't study it - instead I have made wordlists for French and Portuguese. I have already written why it was necessary to do something about my deteriorating rusty French: last time I did a Romanian wordlist using an old French-Romanian dictionary and was shocked to see the number of French words whose meaning I had forgotten. Well, today I was to some extent reassured about the state of my memory when I read through the pages of my fat red Gyldendal dictionary, which abounds in mots rares et précieux.

Then it occurred to me that I spoke Portuguese fairly well after my two weeks in Brazil in February last year, but since the gatherers rejected my lusophone lecture proposal I haven't done much to retain my speaking abilities in the language. OK, summer is over and I'm at home now, and it's about time to do something about my languages - and that includes Portuguese, so after French I did a 200 words long Portuguese wordlist using my Oxford dictionary - and lo and behold, I remembered most of the word I saw in that book. Weird, I thought, and then I decided to make a word count.

The Oxford should contain 40000 words and 60000 expressions, but according to my estimates there are only around 15.000 true headwords in each section, and predictably many of those are fairly commonplace. Nevertheless it was a surprise that I knew 73% of the words on the four pages I tested. OK, let's do a follow up, I thought, and did a test based on my monolingual Porto Editora with almost 50.000 words - and then I got the shock of the day: out of the 186 words on the test pages I knew with certainty 125 (67%) and could guess or vaguely remember 29 more. Or in other words: according to this delirant estimate I should know 33.000 Portuguese words, which would make Portuguese my third best language after Danish and English- and that's just plainly absurd. But with such small sample sizes you sometimes get unexpected results.

POR: A passagem que me deu mais problemas foram, na verdade, as palavras que começam com ferr-. A maioria tem a ver com ferraduras ou outros produtos de ferro, mas entre tudo isso sem aviso aparece "ferrão", que significa 'picada de abelha'. O que faz isso aí? Talvez eu esqueci de fechar a janela? Outras páginas eram mais fáceis. Por exemplo, eu naturalmente sabia que "metrologia" não é a palavra "meteorologia" desfigurada por um erro ortográfico, e então toda a comitiva vem automaticamente: "metrificador", "metrificar" (com 'i') e "metrografia", "metrológico" ... mais não "metrite" e "metrorragia" que são doenças do útero das mulheres. Duvido que no futuro alguma vez novamente necesitarei saber essas palavras, e por isso me apressei em usá-las aqui. Fica mais relevante que meu grande dicionário está tão antigo que "platina" APENAS significa um metal pesado e caro. Na minha Oxford menor, mas mais recente, "platina radar" o "platina CD" significa "tocador de CDs" Ai, com o tempo pasa depressa...

FR: Et demain je compterai mes mots français - cela me surprendrait s'ils n'étaient pas plus nombreux (et étranges) que mon faible arsenal portugais!

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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby Iversen » Mon Aug 10, 2020 8:34 pm

I have been to the language café again. After one half hour nobody except me had arrived, and the library staff had forgotten to put the flags etc. so I was about to leave, when the same French family as last week came - and the wife was eager to have one more lecture/lesson. I deliberately write both, because she got both things: help to learn Danish and conversations in French about sundry subjects. For instance I gave the four models for the position of "ikke" ('not') in Danish:

main clause:
Jeg kommer ikke i dag (subject, verb, 'not')
I dag kommer jeg ikke (adverbial, verb, subject, 'not')

subordinate clause:
... at jeg ikke kommer i dag (conjunction, subject, 'not', adverbial)
... at i dag kommer jeg ikke (conjunction, verb, subject, 'not', adverbial)

I didn't bring along coloured pencils, but have added the colours here to make the patterns more visible. You may notice the inversion caused by a heavy initial adverbial, but also that the negation follows the subject to the right in a subordinate clause. In a main clause it is already on the far side of the verb.

Today the lecture part was mainly about history: we have around 29° C here (a trifle against the 40° in parts of France, but the highest here so far this year) and she mentioned the word "canicules", which corresponds with our "hundedage" (dogs' days), and then the word "chien" (dog" came up, and from there the development from Latin to Modern French ... and then somehow I ended up running through French history from the arrival of the Francs to Hugues Capet. It seems that history teaching in French scholls is less oriented towards the old days than I had thought, but that gave me an opportunity to do a mini lecture about the mérovingians (cfr the table below from Wikipedia) and the carolingians - and I can't resist that kind of opportunities when they present themselves (which isn't very often). I also mentioned the Serments de Strasbourg from 842, which represent the oldest Old French on record (quoted from libresavoir.org):

Louis le Germanique : «Pro deo amur et pro christian poblo et nostro commun salvament, d’ist di in avant, in quant deus savir et podir me dunat, si salvarai eo cist meon fradre Karlo et in aiudha et in cadhuna cosa, si cum om per dreit son fradra salvar dist, in o quid il mi altresi fazet, et ab Ludher nul plaid nunquam prindrai, qui meon vol cist meon fradre Karle in damno sit »

les troupes de Louis le Germanique : « Si Lodhuvigs sagrament, que son fradre Karlo iurat, conservat, et Karlus meos sendra de suo part non lo tanit, si io returnar non l’int pois : ne io ne neuls, cui eo returnar int pois, in nulla aiudha contra Lodhuvig nun li iu er »


The lady in question speaks Spanish and Portuguese and Italian so it should be piece of cake for her to read this, but I was surprised to hear that it wasn't taught during her history classes in school. I actually thought French schools were more conservative and history oriented than for instance our Danish schools.

By the way, there is a slight tendency to quote the French part on the internet, but not the corresponding German (or teudisce) oath so here it is for your entertainment:

Charles le Chauve: In Godes minna ind in thes christianes folches ind unser bedhero gealtnissi, fon thesemo dage frammordes, so fram so mir Got geuuizci indi mahd furgibit, so haldih tesan minan bruodher, soso man mit rehtu sinan bruodher scal, in thiu, thaz er mig sosoma duo ; indi mit Ludheren in nohheiniu thing ne gegango, zhe minan uuillon imo ce scadhen uuerhen »

les troupes de Charles le Chauve : « Oba Karl then eid, then er sinemo bruodher Ludhuuuige gesuor, geleistit, indi Ludhuuuig min herro, then er imo gesuor, forbrihchit, ob ih inan es iruuenden ne mag, noh ih noh thero nohhein, then ih es iruuenden mag, uuidhar Karle imo ce follusti ne uuirdit »


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FR: D'ailleurs j'ai aussi fait l'estimation de vocabulaire que j'ai announcée hier: 64% de mots connus dans une dictionaire avec environ 50.000 mots clé.Mais il y a un petit problème: mon estimation de mots dans le dictionnaire disait 57.000 mots aujourd'hui (ce qui ferait environ 36.500 mots connus), mais par hasard plusieurs des pages avaient un haut nombre de mots clé aves des explications courtes - surtout une page avec des mots sur in-, et alors l'estimation totale de mots monte vers les étoiles. Avec 50.000 mots (comme dans mes tests antérieurs) elle baisse à 32.000 mots, ce qui est beaucoup plus vraisemblable. Encore une fois on vois les pièges intégrés dans la méthode lorsque l'on n'a pas le temps (ou patience) d'utiliser des échantillons suffisamment étendues...
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Iversen
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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby Iversen » Thu Aug 13, 2020 11:26 am

RO: Astăzi am avut prima conversație în limba română într-un timp foarte lung. Am facut niște cumpărături într-un supermarket, iar afară stătea un bărbat care vindea o revistă. M-am întâmplat să văd un 'ă' în nume, apoi am devenit curios și m-am apropiat. Există o altă revistă în limba daneză, numită "Hjemløs", care este vândută de persoane fără adăpost pe străzi și drumuri, iar după părerea mea asta este o modalitate mai bună de a-i sprijini pe acești oameni decât de a da bani cerșetorilor (sau muzicienilor nemuzicali). Dar o revistă în limba română, în afara unui supermarket danez?? L-am întrebat pe vânzător dacă este într-adevăr o revistă românească și da, da, da, - dar nu, a fost în limba daneză și mă întreb despre modelul de afaceri: vindeți mai multe reviste în Danemarca cu un titlu care sperie departe cititorii?. Dar revista a costat numai 20 DKK (<3 €) și am avut o șansă rară de a folosi limba mea român.

IT: Ieri sera ho ascoltato quasi ore di italiano su RaiUno del programma SuperQuark, e ho guardato la TV in tedesco da Hagenbeck a Hamburgo - ma per il resto ascoltavo soprattutto musica musica musica, compresa la musica di un certo Amilcare Ponchielli, noto solamente grazie a un solo pezzo: La Danza delle Ore dall'opera La Gioconda. Ma su Youtube ci sono altri pezzi che dimostrano che ha scritto anche qualcosa di udibile oltre a quel famoso ballo dell'ora. E per estensione ascoltavo anche musiche di altri italiani quasi dimenticati oggi, nomi como Riccardo Drigo, Umberto Giordano e Alexandre Luigini - un tempo forse noti per un singolo pezzo, ma ora presenti solo come note marginali in dissertazioni o su vecchi dischi di vinile in scatole di cartone nelle case di collezionisti. E questo è una vergogna e una disgrazia.

EO: Krome mi legis hieraŭ la du plej freŝajn eldonojn de la revuo Esperanto, junio kaj julio-aŭgusto. La revuo de julio enhavas la obituaron por rekorda esperantisto: Eduardo Larroy López, kiu mortis en Biblio la 27an de aprilo 2020 en la aĝo de 107 jaroj. Li lernis la lingvon en la 30-aj jaroj kaj uzis ĝin dum pli ol 80 jaroj - malfacile estos bati ĉi tiun rekordon! La sama revuo ankaŭ enhavas artikolon de Françoise Noireau (franzoaso), kiu dum la ordonita doma aresto en marto-aprilo organizis retejon nomatan "Internacia Babilado". Ŝi ankaŭ ĉeestis en iujn de la multaj konferencoj kiuj sub la impreso de la pandemio transformitigis al interretaj eventoj. Entute, tre aktiva sinjorino - mi ne povas konkurenci kun ŝi. Mi ĉeestis neniujn interretajn konferencojn, nek en Esperanto, nek la kunveno kiu anstataŭis je la ĉi-jaran kunvenon en Theresienstadt. En la artikolo en la revuo Aŭgusto oni mencias unu detalon kiu min grandege impresis: la programisto Edoardo Nannotti de E@I kreis la tutan platformon pri ĉi tiu evento en nur 10 tagoj!

IN: Saya juga melanjutkan membaca teks bahasa Indonesia saya tentang sejarah bumi, termasuk bagian ordovicium, yang mengacu pada kelas hewan yang disebut conodonts. Saya harus melengkapi informasi dengan membaca di Wikipedia, tetapi sekarang saya tahu bahwa hewanlah yang secara dangkal menyerupai piring lampu, tetapi tidak terkait erat dengan mereka. Mereka memiliki tiga jenis gigi fosfat (!), Tetapi tidak memiliki rahang, dan untuk waktu yang lama mereka hanya dikenal dari gigi ini. Sejak itu, jejak jenazah juga ditemukan. Mereka bertahan sampai akhir Trias, dan untuk sosis lembut tanpa senjata, itu bukanlah pencapaian yang tidak berarti.

EN: And now I have run out of things to write about- except maybe that I have been thinking a lot about the thread about the Spanish subjunctive. It suggested to me a way to combine grammar studies with text studies: I'm going to make a collection of examples and look them through, and then I will reread my grammars to see whether they give the right impression of the semantics of the Spanish subjunctive as it is used in modern non-fictional texts.

Promissum Pulchrum.jpg
PS: 'pulcher' means pretty. Beauty must in this case be in the eyes of the beholder
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Iversen
Black Belt - 2nd Dan
Posts: 2881
Joined: Sun Jul 19, 2015 7:36 pm
Location: Denmark
Languages: Monolingual travels in Danish, English, German, Dutch, Swedish, French, Portuguese, Spanish, Catalan, Italian, Romanian and (part time) Esperanto
Ahem, not yet: Norwegian, Afrikaans, Platt, Scots, Russian, Serbian, Bulgarian, Albanian, Greek, Latin, Irish, Indonesian and a few more...
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=1027
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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby Iversen » Sat Aug 15, 2020 9:51 am

GER: Gerade jetzt schauh' ich Fern aus dem Hellabrunner Tiergarten in München. Die Sendung heißt "Nashorn, Zebra & Co", und es ist so etwas wie ein Regel, daß Zoo-Sendungen aus Deutschland so etwas wie Tier 1, Tier 2 & Co. heissen. Ich denke, daß es Leipzig zuerst war mit Elefant, Tiger & Co., von 2005 ausgestrahlt. Ich habe darin einmal selbst mitgewirkt: es hat fürchterlich geregnet, und es gab wenig einländischer Besucher. Sie haben mich im Tropenhaus aufgeschtöbert und gebeten, als Weihnachtsmann aufzutreten und ihre Gesamtübersicht zu sagen, und es war ihnen egal, daß ich einen Akzent habe - der Weihnachtsmann hat das wahrscheinlich auch (egal wo er lebt). Aber gerade die verschiendene Mundarten sind in solche sendungen auch teilweise zu hören, weil die Tierpfleger sprechen wie zu Hause, nicht wie die Ansager von den Nachrichten.

Seit 2005 Leipzig gibt es eine ganze Fülle von solche Serien, aber nicht alle sind heute aktiv, und ich kann auch nicht alle Deutsche öffentlichrechtlichen Lokalsender sehen. Ich habe irgendwann eine ganze Liste davon hier zitiert (oder vielleicht auf HTLAL?), aber es ist nicht ganz einfach die wieder zu finden. Heute ist aber Hellabrunn dran, und es wird zum Beispiel von ihren Galapagos Riesenschildschildkröten erzählt, die als die mit abstand ältesten EInwohner von Bayern zählen. Und vom Neuankömmling .. wie war es noch, Flora oder so was ... ein weiblicher Faultier aus Dortmund, die im Nashornhaus der Münchener jetzt 'rumstöbert.

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PLATT: ik höff gistern ook een önner Sorte vun Düütsch hört, naamlich Platt mit Ina Müller - een Stück uut sien "Platt is nich uncool", wat ik ook als kompletter Böök in mien Bööken regal höff stehn - op Youtube to höörn. "Dee Deern kunn meis richtich snacken!", wie een Dame in de Kommentaaren dorto schrievt. Ik kann dat immer noch goot verstehn, aver studiert nich oft Platt, wiel dat so problematisch is, neues Material to finden. Höör ook mol sien Dörp Reggae an - aver alles ölle Hose. Platt warrt doomstill doodblieven...

DA: uha, og efter Hellabrun fortsatte jeg med at se ARD, og så kom der gudhjælpemig et program om insekter og andet uspiseligt stads som fødevare, og her var der også en dansk dame ved navn Pedersen der havde fundet på at lave 'knuspriche Chips' (knasende sprøde chips) af vandmænd ('Quallen')! Damen snakkede dansk nedenunder den tyske oversættelse, men heldigvis holdt den tyske stemme sommetider bøtte. Man starter med at lægge goplerne i sprit, og så ender man med at lade nogle mennesker smage på dem. De smager vistnok af salt, men kan spises - så længe man ikke fortæller forsøgspersonerne hvad chipsene er lavet af. Ellers er det vist mest havskildpadder der spiser gopler.

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EN: OK, I wrote a couple of days ago that I would have a peek at some Spanish subjunctives in real lfe, i.e. in a number of actual non-fictional texts. Well, I did make such a collection and marked all subordinated clauses according to their type and the mood of the verb. I didn't find anything spectacular, but it is logical that the indicatives will dominate in dry non-fictional texts, whereas you'll find more subjunctives in novels or emotional discussions. But this post is already quite long so I'll write more about the experiment tomorrow.
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Iversen
Black Belt - 2nd Dan
Posts: 2881
Joined: Sun Jul 19, 2015 7:36 pm
Location: Denmark
Languages: Monolingual travels in Danish, English, German, Dutch, Swedish, French, Portuguese, Spanish, Catalan, Italian, Romanian and (part time) Esperanto
Ahem, not yet: Norwegian, Afrikaans, Platt, Scots, Russian, Serbian, Bulgarian, Albanian, Greek, Latin, Irish, Indonesian and a few more...
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=1027
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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby Iversen » Mon Aug 17, 2020 5:44 pm

EN: I have just come back from the Language café, where I got one hour in Italian with a lady who also knew a number of other languages. Another a lady wanted to speak Greek, but my spoken Greek hasn't been activated since my visit to Thessaloniki in 2016 so we agreed on having a chat next Monday. Apart from that the turnout was miserable, be it because of the heat wawe (which is said to terminate today) or because some (especially elderly) people are scared of being infected with the virus. But now I at least know that I have to do something about my Greek before next Monday.

GR: Πριν από λίγες μέρες διάβασα ένα άρθρο γραμμένο από Δανούς που επισκέφτηκαν πρόσφατα κάποια ελληνικά νησιά. Οι τουρίστες αρχίζουν να έρχονται ξανά εκεί, αλλά δεν είναι τόσο ομαλό όσο στις παλιές μέρες. Πρέπει να φοράτε μια μάσκα καθ 'όλη τη διάρκεια της πτήσης και να κάνετε μια γρήγορη δοκιμή θερμοκρασίας κατά την άφιξη και αρκετές φορές μετά που φθάνουν με αεροπλάνο. Η δειγματοληψία γίνεται μεταξύ των επισκεπτών, και εάν έχετε δειγματοληψία και μολυνθεί, θα καραντίσετε για δύο εβδομάδες ... με δικά σας έξοδα. Πρέπει επίσης να έχετε συμπληρώσει μια ηλεκτρονική φόρμα συμμετοχής, τουλάχιστον το υπόλοιπο του Αυγούστου.

Και όμως η Ελλάδα είναι μία από τις χώρες όπου, σε τελική ανάλυση, είναι δυνατόν να πάμε ξανά διακοπές, τις οποίες η ελληνική οικονομία χρειάζεται απεγνωσμένα. Ωστόσο, περιμένω λίγους μήνες προτού αρχίσω να σκέφτομαι να ταξιδέψω στο εξωτερικό - όχι επειδή φοβάμαι να μολυνθώ, αλλά περισσότερο επειδή δεν θέλω να διακινδυνεύσω να κλειδωθώ για εβδομάδες λόγω της τοπικής εκδήλωσης της πανδημίας στον προορισμό μου. Και είναι δύσκολο να ανακαλυφθούν όλοι οι διαφορετικοί περιορισμοί σε διάφορους προορισμούς, οπότε κινδυνεύετε να παγιδευτείτε σε κάποια γραφειοκρατική κόλαση εάν έχετε παραβλέψει έναν προσωρινό κανόνα.

EN: As I mentioned two days ago I have made a collection of Spanish texts and marked all subordinate clauses according to mode. I didn't find something worth quoting in the thread about the semantics of the Spanish subjunctive, but it was very clear that dry scientific texts have fewer subjuntivos than agitated vehement texts about subjects like the virus or the present location of the former Spanish king (actually I have texts about both - se the comments below). And the most numerous cathegory by far turned out to be relative clauses with "que" and a verb in the indicative.

SP: El texto segundo más enojado en mi colección de textos vino de una señora que había vivido en Suecia durante muchos años, pero durante la crisis de la corona se sintió discriminada y ridiculizada porque insistió en caminar con una mascarilla. Así que ahora odia a los suecos. El texto sin comparación más enojado fue una diatriba sobre la recente fuga del ex rey español, y por supuesto aquí se encuentra aqui el número sin comparación más alto de subjuntivos. Me abstengo de dar citas ya que podrían interpretarse como declaraciones políticas.

BU: Изучих и началото на статия за бронзовата епоха в България, но това послание вече е достатъчно дълго, така че трябва да направите без моите коментари по тази вълнуваща тема.

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User avatar
Iversen
Black Belt - 2nd Dan
Posts: 2881
Joined: Sun Jul 19, 2015 7:36 pm
Location: Denmark
Languages: Monolingual travels in Danish, English, German, Dutch, Swedish, French, Portuguese, Spanish, Catalan, Italian, Romanian and (part time) Esperanto
Ahem, not yet: Norwegian, Afrikaans, Platt, Scots, Russian, Serbian, Bulgarian, Albanian, Greek, Latin, Irish, Indonesian and a few more...
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=1027
x 6523

Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby Iversen » Fri Aug 21, 2020 7:08 pm

I have spent several days at my mother's place, and there I spent most of my time doing gardening. I had planned to do some Greek wordlists and brought along a dictionary, but in my hurry I had grabbed an Oxford English-Greek dictionary, and that's the wrong way for wordlists. I had however also planned to try think for prolonged periods in Greek and for that purpose the direction is in principle the right one: you think and think and think, and then you look up the words which you missed most sorely (leaving the less important ones aside). And I did of course look some words up in the Oxford, but it was too detailled and verbose and graphically undifferentiated to be really efficient for this purpose - something the size of my tiny yellow Langenscheidt would have been better, and it has also both directions represented so that I could have used it for wordlists.

But I did succeed in producing a fair number of Greekish formulations in my mind so I look forward to my conversation attempt Monday with some confidence.

By the way, I also own the German-Greek two-way Taschenwörterbuch from Langenscheidt, but when I'm sitting at home my preferred dictionaries are actually the Συνχρονο Ελλινοδανικο Λεξικο (Greek->Danish) and the Dansk Nygræsk Ordbog, both compiled by Rolf Hesse and published respectively by Εκδοσεις Πατακη and Munksgaard. And there is actually a little oddity hidden here, namely the word λεξικό (lexikó - from λέξη, word), whose core meaning in Greek apparently is dictionary (although it also can mean encyclopedia, according to Hesse), but in Danish 'leksikon' can only signify 'encyclopedia' (εγκυκλοπαιδεία).

And the word 'dictionary'? Well, according to Wikipedia it was invented around the year 1200 by the medieval English grammarian Johannes de Garlandia or John of Garland, who "for the use of his students at the University of Paris, (..) lists the trades and tradesmen that they saw around them every day in the streets of Paris, France. The work is written in Latin with interlinear glosses in Old French." No Greek there...

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