Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

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Iversen
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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby Iversen » Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:50 pm

I spent most of yesterday (Sunday) on an organ suite - and on studying organ playing technique including the compass of its keyboards, which funnily enough seems to be a closely guarded secret. I finally resorted to reading some works by people like Reger and Widor who presumably would take their works to the outer edges of the technically possible, and it seems that the bottom limit is a notated C (the one at two auxiliary lines below the F key staff). The organ can play much lower tones, but then it resorts to the 16', 32' or (where possible) 64' stops, which lie 1,2 two resp. 3 octaves below the notated levels ... and then the plaster will be peeling off the ceiling and fall silently like snow down unto the heads of the hapless audience. To do this I only had to read English, German and musical-notationish, but then I got the idea that it would sound fun to have a Cuban rumba nested into the suite after the passepied, and then I was sent into a world of Spanish texts about not only the rumba, but also other Latin American dances in order to find the defining rhythms. Bah, I thought I knew how it sounds until I saw the suggestions as to what the rhythm sections actually do during a rhumba. Then I listened to some examplary pieces on Youtube (excluding the slow US variant called rumba without an 'h') and basically gave up finding the defining common ground. I still wrote a suite movement for organ and called it 'r(h)umba', but the Cubans playing the real mcCoy would probably snort in contempt if they heard the result.

And today I have been studying languages, more precisely I have been doing dictionary based wordlists in Serbian and (not least) Albanian the whole afternnon. It may sound like a fairly boring activity, but I actually like the steady and unperturbed process of moving through page after page of new or more or less forgotten words in a dictionary, using a wellestablished format which I don't have to reinvent again and again. And sometimes you see some small detail that amuses you - like finding that the word for 'amusement, fun, hobby' seems to be "забава" in Serbian, and the word for a kindergarten is "забавиште" ... so basically a kindergarten is a fun house. Well, actually I found the place I frequented around 1960 rather boring and infantile, but they may have improved since I left.

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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby Josquin » Mon Jan 22, 2018 10:20 pm

Iversen wrote:I spent most of yesterday (Sunday) on an organ suite - and on studying organ playing technique including the compass of its keyboards, which funnily enough seems to be a closely guarded secret. I finally resorted to reading some works by people like Reger and Widor who presumably would take their works to the outer edges of the technically possible, and it seems that the bottom limit is a notated C (the one at two auxiliary lines below the F key staff). The organ can play much lower tones, but then it resorts to the 16', 32' or (where possible) 64' stops, which lie 1,2 two resp. 3 octaves below the notated levels ...

The problem might be that there isn't one standardized type of organ the way there are modern concert pianos with 88 keys. Each organ is different, has different stops and a different compass. There are modern concert organs with all kinds of gadgets like a "Schwellwerk" etc. and then there are traditional Baroque organs like those by Silbermann, which Bach criticized for their tuning. In any case, the differences can be extreme.

I don't know if you've ever heard of the 'broken' octave on Baroque organs. Basically, it means that chromatic tones don't exist for the lowest octave or that they are arranged in some counterintuitive order. Here's the German Wikipedia article. So, while it is true that normally the organ can go as low as notated C2 (C in German), many older organs can't or they don't have the full range available in the lowest octave. Also, the pedal key normally transposes an octave down (like double basses), because you always have 16' or even 32' stops in the pedal. 64' would be quite extraordinary and indeed make the church or auditory shake.

The point is the compass of an organ is dependent on its stops. You can play a C0 (Sub-Kontra-C) with a 32' pedal stop, which would be notated like a C2 (C) in the pedal. But you can also play a C10 (c''''''' in German) with a 1' stop, which would be notated as a C7 (c'''') . However, every organ has different stops, so you can't play all tones on all organs and you can't play everything with the same stop.

I must add I'm not an organist, I only know the theory of it as a musicologist. So, if you have practical questions as to what stops to use for your suite, I unfortunately can't help you. Otherwise, feel free to ask or maybe read a little bit about the different organ stops and registration. Anyway, I hope this helped a little bit.
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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby Iversen » Wed Jan 24, 2018 1:57 am

It took me some time to get through the two pages above my own thread, and I couldn't resist writing a few messages along the way, so this message will be a fairly short one.

Josquin clearly knows a thing or two about organs, and I have also read a little bit about the topic. It has even been raised at an earlier time in this very log, see for instance my rant about the nomenclature of Spanish organs from Nov.14 2015. But my problems with the Organ suite were of a more practical kind, namely how much you can (or should) write of instructions to the potential organist who in a better world than this would have played my humble effusions. And the lowest and highest notated notes with standard organs are only part of the problem - I do permit myself to disregard the few remaining organs with deficient octaves at the bottom. If you write for organ you cannot even be sure of how many manuals and stops you can expect or whether there is an assistant who can pull or push a few stop keys while the master wizard is playing .. and whether you risk an ugly howl if a stop is drawn while the relevant manual is being used by the master may be known to organists and their assistants, but not to me.

Composition is not only a question of inspiration versus perspiration, but also about the amount of available hardcore information.

FR: D'ailleurs je me suis permis de lire quelques sources en Français et Allemand concernant les orgues. En allemand parce-que j'aime bien l'écriture organistique de Monsieur Reger, mais en français surtout pour m'informer sur les détails de la facture organistique de monsieur Cavaillé-Coll. Si ce ne fût pas bientôt 3 heures à la nuit ici j'eusse écrit davantage là-dessus, mais pas maintenant.. On m'a dit que la vie Parisienné typique consiste en métro-boulot-dodo. Je vais me limiter au dodo. Au revoir.

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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby Iversen » Fri Jan 26, 2018 1:38 am

I have been revising and then writing parts for a sinfonietta for strings the last couple of days. It's an old thing from 1995, and against expectation not so truly excruciatingly bad that I felt the obligation to rewrite it (which saved me a lot of work), but just writing the parts has taken valuable time away from my studies. But in this dire situation the Esperanto association UEA had the timely foresight to send me its magazine Esperanto by mail (thereby as a by-effect confirming that we still do have some kind of postal system here in Denmark). And I have read it as goodnight reading without finding more than a handful of words which I didn't understand and without falling asleep before I had finished it.

EO: La plej granda parto de la enhavo aplikiĝas al organizaj aferoj, sed ĉi tio inkludas referencojn pri diversaj kongresoj, de kiuj mi ne pli frua aŭdis. Ekzemple, okazis poliglota okazaĵo nomata "Poliglotar 2017" en Fortaleza en Brazilo, kie ankaŭ partoprenis Esperantistoj. Mi ne scias ĝian strukturon, kaj unu formulado en la revuo min mirigas: la Brazila Esperanto-Ligo BEL "rajtas aliĝigi tri esperantistojn". Kia statuso havas do ĉi tiuj tri "ambasadoroj" ... inter ĉiuj multaj partoprenantoj? Ampleksa parola tempo? En Rusujo okazis konferenco pri amaskomunikado kun du prelegoj pri (kaj en?) Esperanto, kaj la domo de UEA en Amsterdamo havis malfermaĵan tagon, certe kun granda sukceso KROM en ciu ĉe concernas la kursoj por neofitoj, kie nur dua malesperantaj homoj partoprenis. Kaj kompreneble ankaŭ estas raportoj pri la venonta monda kongreso en Lisbono.

GR: Έκανα επίσης μια συλλογή μουσικών κειμένων στα ελληνικά. Οι δύο θεματικές σφαίρες τεχνολογία και μουσική ενώνουν στο πολύ ενδιαφέρον ὕδραυλις, ένα αρχαίο όργανο που εφευρέθηκε από τους Έλληνες και συνεχίστηκε από τους Ρωμαίους. Ωστόσο, το καλύτερο διατηρημένο αντίγραφο βρέθηκε στη Βουδαπέστη στην Ουγγαρία, όπου το έχω δει (δείτε την εικόνα παρακάτω). Αλλά τότε άρχισα να προσθέτω άρθρα στη συλλογή για τον αστρονομικό υπολογιστή από τα Αντικύθηρα (ίσως το πιο συγκλονιστικό αντικείμενο της αρχαιότητας), τα ονόματα των συσκευών σε ένα εργαστήριο χημείας και οργανωτές εκκλησιών - όπως προφανώς δεν φαίνεται στην Ελλάδα όπου οι περισσότερες εκκλησίες είναι Ορθόδοξοι. Αλλά δεν είχα χρόνο ακόμα να μελετήσω αυτά τα άρθρα.

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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby Iversen » Tue Jan 30, 2018 2:28 am

Once again I have to blame music for not studying languages intensively for several days in a row, but I do have my goodnight reading, and yesterday I even went by train to an exhibition in another town called Jelling, where king Gorm the Old set up his court some 1050 years ago, and in the train I managed to read some texts about nuclear physics in Afrikaans - and where could I find such things except at Wikipedia?

IC: Í Jelling er safn sem kallast "jelling konungs". Hér finnur þú einnig tvær grafhaugur umkringdur stórum steinskipi (Því miður ekki lengur sýnileg yfir jarðhæð). Eina jarðhauginn í upphafi var gröf Gorms konungs, en sonur hans Harald (sem valdi að leggja Danmörk á kristni í þeim tilgangi að sleppa undan krossferð skipulögð af þýska keisara Otto II) flutti bein Gorms í gröf undir gólfi kirkjunnar sem hann byggði á milli tveggja hæðanna. Hér eru einnig tveir rúnastein. Á elsta skrifar Gorm þetta:

: kurmʀ : kunukʀ :
: k[ar]þi : kubl : þusi :
: a[ft] : þurui : kunu
Side B:
: sina : tanmarkaʀ : but :

(Gōrmʀ kunungʀ gærði kumbl þǿsi æft Þōrvē, kunu sīna, Danmarkaʀ bōt)


Gormur missti augljóslega konu sin Þōrvu/Þýru (þó enginn í raun veit hvað "bōt" þýðir), en undarlega hefur grafinn hennar aldrei fundist.

Á yngri steininum tilkynnti sóninn Harald að hann stjórnaði Danmörku og Noregi og að hann reyndar hefði gert Danska kristinn. Þessi runestone er mælanlega stærri (12 tonn) og mun frægari - það birtist innan allra danskra vegabréfa (sjá litað afrit fyrir neðan - raunverulegur steinninn hefur misst liti eftir 1000 ár í rigningu og sól):

haraltr : kunukʀ : baþ : kaurua
kubl : þausi : aft : kurm faþur sin
auk aft : þąurui : muþur : sina : sa
haraltr (:) ias : s[ą]ʀ : uan : tanmaurk
ala : auk : nuruiak
: auk : t[a]ni [karþi :] kristną

(Haraldr kunungR bað gørva kumbl þǿsi æft Gōrm, faður sinn, ok æft Þōrvē, mōður sīna, sā Haraldr es sēR vann Danmǫrk alla ok Norveg ok dani gærði krīstna)


EN: By the way: Gorm 'the old' is usually named as the first Danish king, but that is of course rubbish - there are references to several earlier kings in early sources (substantiated by the later reports by Adam of Bremen and Saxo Grammaticus et alia), although their relation with Gorm is dubious. As for Gorm we know from Adam of Bremen (who had no less than king Sven Estridsen as his source) that he was son of Hardeknud, and maybe this Hardeknud even was king in Denmark for a time - but according to the Old English Chronicle a Hardicnut ruled East Anglia from to 881 til 895, and a Gorm/Guthrum II was king there from 902 to 918. In principle this Gorm could be the same man who around 935 or 936 pops up as king of Denmark, but the Anglian kings could also be ancestors (more likely!), and then the same names just lived on among the Danish kings in Jelling and their kin. Who ruled then Denmark before Gorm? Well, it is attested that a Swedish dynasty with Olav ('hin frøkne'), Gnupa(Chnob) and Sigtrygg Gnupasson ruled at least some of Denmark from the late 800s, presumably from Haithabú (near modern Schleswig), and since we know that the German king Heinrich der Vogler sacked Haithabu during this period this may have weakened the 'Swedish dynasty' enough to permit Hardeknud and Gorm to establish their own power base in Jelling. However already Harald - also known as Harald Bluetooth - moved the seat of the Danish kings away from Jelling to Roskilde, which was the new town near the previous royal seat at Lejre (Lethra) on Sjælland (Zealand). So Jelling was only the Danish capital for a period during the 900s, but it is still an important place in Danish history.

And yes, queen Margrethe II descends from Hardeknud and Gorm, but through a long and tortuous line, and if you by some kind of magic could trace the genealogy of less distinguished Danes it would probably turn out that many others in some way or another had the Jelling kings among their ancestors.

AF: Die langste van die tekste in Afrikaans vertel van die kwarke - geheimsinnige deeltjies wat nie geïsoleer is nie (behalwe net na die big bang waar alles baie verward was), maar twee of drie in duie gestort om leptone soos protrone en elektrone en meer eksotiese dinge te vorm. Daarbenewens het ek tekste gehad oor die sterk en die swak interaksie en die Oranje-Vrystaat.

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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby Iversen » Thu Feb 01, 2018 11:23 pm

My goodnight reading is for the time being Lita Hammond's Essential Serbian Grammar in the excellent series from Routledge. It is clear in the typeface, it is well structured - also in the way the important things are separated from details and exceptions, and it has a reasonable size (and weight) for a book I have chosen to read while lying down. OK, it put the accusative after the dative, but that's unfortunately a very common choice. The logical place in any Slavic language is of course between the nominative and the genitive since the accusative borrows most of its forms from these two cases, but apparently nuttin' in this world is perfect.

I decided to read at least some of it because I felt my knowledge of some of the case forms was fading away/getting confused with forms from other Slavic languages, but once you get going the stuff is as captivating as science fiction and detective stories - and more real. There are some funny rules, such as those that dictate the choice of case and number after quantitative terms (including numbers). The most common choice here is the genitive in singular or plural. And here you count 1, 2-3-4, nay ... not many, but MUCH (with the genitive singular)...But that's not all. For instance you can express "there is" by using verbs like бити or имати. OK, which case and number of the thing(s)-that-be do you use here? With a plural countable thing you use the genitive plural, with an uncountable word you use the genitive singular. There is some logic in this: the genitive is vaguely partitive - a certain number or amount OF something. What is then used with singular countables? The nominative singular, haha ...

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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby Iversen » Tue Feb 06, 2018 9:42 pm

I have been on an internetless family visit, where I did read some pages in my Serbian grammar and a forum entry written by a lusophile Russian, but otherwise I didn't do any real studying - I wonder how you guys who have your family around you on a daily basis ever get any studying done. To be sure I once upon a time went to school and did my homework at home with my sister and my mother running around in the background, but maybe I was more impervious to external distractions back then.

I did watch TV, though, and some of it in German (thanks to my mother's Astra receiver, which still has a free view to the satellites, later to be obscured by foliage in her garden which will cut the connection).

GER: Ich habe die deutschen Zoosendungen bereits als gute Quellen erwähnt, um Deutsch als gesprochene Sprache zu hören. Im Kabelfernsehen hier in Dänemark gibt's ARD, ZDF, NDR und etliche Sender, die meistens Filme und so was senden, aber mit Astra haben wir Zugang zu Dutzenden von deutschsprachigen Kanälen, was die Anzahl der vertretenen Tiergartens erhöht. Und zum Glück gehören Tierfilme zu den wenigen Genrem, die wir alle mögen - und die öffentlichen Sender bieten oft Untertitlen an, entweder via das Menusystem des Astra-Boxes oder auf der Text-TV-Seite 150. Die Namen der Serien sind meistens standardisiert, und hier ist die Schlüssel:

Leipzig: Elefant, Tiger und Co.
Münster: Pinguin, Löwe und Co.
Berlin: Panda, Gorilla und Co.
Stuttgart: Eisbär, Affe & Co.
München: Nashorn,Zebra und Co.
Frankfurt / Opel: Giraffe, Erdmännchen & Co.
Lüneburger Heide (nur in 2007): Wolf, Bär & Co.
Hagenbeck Hamburg: Leopard, Seebär & Co.
Bremerhafen /Jaderpark: Seehund, Puma & Co.
Loro Parque, Tenerife: Papageien, Palmen & Co.

So weit ich weiß sind MDR und Leipzig Zoo die Erfinder dieser Nomenklatur, und die Serie dort begann 2002 und rollt immer noch auf MDR. ZDF hatte einst auch Tiergartensendungen, meisten [ETWAS]-Schnauzen genannt, but ich habe diese sit langem nicht wieder gesehen. ZDF: Schäm dich!

In Dänemark wird immer noch auf die Jütländischen Lokalsender eine alte serie genannt "Vild med Dyr" mit Beiträgen aus Zoos und Akwarien in der Region Midtjylland ausgestrahlt, und es gibt aus neuere Sendungen aus Givskud Zoo, aber unsere landesweiten Sender sind in dieser Hinsicht nichts wert (ich das weniger diplomatisch ausdrücken können).

Ich war einst auf Besuch in Leipzig (in Dezember 2005), und trotz Regen und Kälte mußte ich natürlich den örtlichen Zoo besuchen. Im Tropenhaus (wo keine andere Besucher zu sehen waren) traf ich auf das Team von MDR, und sie haben mir gefragt, ob ich ihnen einen kleinen Gefallen tun könnte - die Rolle als ihren Zoo-Weihnachtsman 2005 auszufüllen. Ich habe mich zuerst geweigert, weil ich ja kein Deutscher war ... aber der Weihnachtsmann wohnt ja auch nicht in Leipzig (obwohl man das glauben könnte wegen der Größe des Christkindlmarktes). Und dann wurde ich als Weihnachtsmann ausgestattet (natürlich mit einem großen weißen Baumwollbart, am Bild unten noch nicht zu sehen) und habe die mir zugeteilten Zeilen gesagt:

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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby Iversen » Fri Feb 09, 2018 3:05 am

I have spent some time last week and the last couple of days in this week on a string quartet. The firt movement contained some useful material, but also much rubbish, so I ahd to rewrite it. And the last three movements had to be written almost totally from scratch, but I finished that task this afternoon, and an hour ago I finished writing the parts. When I write music I can't obviously have music running in the background, and that excludes TV-programs with background music. This restricts my choices with sound to quizzes, stand-up, certain kinds of irrelevant sport, news and documentaries from certain channels (mostly Nordic ones and local TV) ... and in practice I often choose to silence the TV and just watch programs with subtitles while listening to recordings of waterfalls and rain from the internet. But the last hour I have been listening to podcasts in Afrikaans from a series called "Die Tale wat ons praat".

AF: "Die tale wat ons praat" is 'n diens van ons South African Broadcasting Corporation, en dit is reeds aktief vir 'n baie lang tyd, en het was al die tyd my hoofbron van gesproke Afrikaans. Op hierdie oomblik luister ek na 'n onderhoud met 'n fotospesialis, wat ons onder andere vertel van die gebruik van histogramme - dit is kurwes wat 'n bepaalde foto wys afgebreek na intensiteit, sowel totaal as op elk van die drie hoofkleure wat 'n digitale kamera kan herstel ("luminosity histogram"). My foto-versameling (insluitende gescande poskaarte en sommige foto's wat deur familielede geneem word) benader 40,000 stuks, en ek het die grootmaat gewysig ... ha ha. Ek weet dat sommige puriste dink dit is bedrieg, maar as die beeld beter word na redigering, is dit belangriker vir my. En soms verander ek die foto om die motief beter te wys soos ek dit gesien het ten tye van die opname. Ek kan daaran niks verkeerd sien nie.

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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby Jaleel10 » Fri Feb 09, 2018 8:53 am

Iversen wrote:AF: "Die tale wat ons praat" is 'n diens van ons South African Broadcasting Corporation, en dit is reeds aktief vir 'n baie lang tyd, en het was al die tyd my hoofbron van gesproke Afrikaans. Op hierdie oomblik luister ek na 'n onderhoud met 'n fotospesialis, wat ons onder andere vertel van die gebruik van histogramme - dit is kurwes wat 'n bepaalde foto wys afgebreek na intensiteit, sowel totaal as op elk van die drie hoofkleure wat 'n digitale kamera kan herstel ("luminosity histogram"). My foto-versameling (insluitende gescande poskaarte en sommige foto's wat deur familielede geneem word) benader 40,000 stuks, en ek het die grootmaat gewysig ... ha ha. Ek weet dat sommige puriste dink dit is bedrieg, maar as die beeld beter word na redigering, is dit belangriker vir my. En soms verander ek die foto om die motief beter te wys soos ek dit gesien het ten tye van die opname. Ek kan daaran niks verkeerd sien nie.


Wow. Dis flippen cool (verskoon my taal :) ) dat jy Afrikaans ook leer. Ek kan jou verseker dat jy 'n beter woordeskat en grammatika het as meeste van ons wat met die taal groot gewoord het. :) Dit is so bietjie hartseer want die taal is definitief besig om stadig maar seker baie van sy egtheid te verloor soos die Engels oorvat. Ek is 'n goeie voorbeeld hiervan. Op hoërskool het ek 'n C gekry in Afrikaans maar 'n A in Engels :lol: Maar ek probeer om meer TV te kyk om daardie vernuf terug te leer. Jy het seker al van die diens Showmax gehoor ? Dit het 'n goeie reeks met die naam 'Die Byl'.Een van ons beste spuerdramas.

Andersins, geniet dit en sterkte met die leer van al jou tale. Ek's 'n groot aanhanger :)
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Iversen
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Languages: Monolingual travels in Danish, English, German, Dutch, Swedish, French, Portuguese, Spanish, Catalan, Italian, Romanian and (part time) Esperanto
Ahem, not yet: Norwegian, Afrikaans, Platt, Scots, Russian, Serbian, Bulgarian, Albanian, Greek, Latin, Irish, Indonesian and a few more...
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=1027
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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby Iversen » Fri Feb 09, 2018 9:57 pm

AF: Ek is bly dat Jaleel10 dink dat my vlak in Afrikaans aanvaarbaar is, en veral dat hy ook wys op die grammatika. Die meeste mense weet dat Afrikaans 'n baie eenvoudige morfologie het, maar net omdat dit eenvoudig is is jy geneig om alles anders te vergeet. En ek het nog nooit 'n grammatika vir Afrikaans gelees (of gesien) nie - my kennis kom van Wikipedia en 'n ou ligblou Teach Yourself. Gelukkig kan 't Nederlands as 'n kortpad dien, maar jy kan nie vertrou dat die dinge op dieselfde manier werk nie.

EN: I have oploaded the string quartet I mentioned, and now there are very few works left on my old production list. Some are small pieces for a few instruments, but (with one possible exception) they will have to be rewritten. And then there are two big lumps left: 1) a string quartet which would sound better for orchestra (but it would have to be restructured even as a string quartet since most of it is boring and worthless), and that will take ages, 2) a viola concerto, which isn't better, but I have some ideas that might make it work. If I do fall for the temptation to rescue these two disasters-in-waiting then it will probably cost me a month for each one...

In between I also find time to listen to some real music by other composers (in alphabetical order), and today I have been listening to music written by several Russian composers, including Khatchaturian and Tikhon Khrennikov. Khatchaturian is the guy that wrote the famous sabre dance, but who is the other one? Well, ..

RU: Я почти смущен, чтобы упомянуть об этом, но печально известный Жданов (культурная правая рука Сталина) назначил Ти́хона Никола́евича Хре́нникова на председательем ассоциацией композиторов в 1948 году, и он сохранил пост до смены системы в 1991 году. Проблема в том, что он также был хорошим композитором, который написал хорошую и интересную музыку - может быть, не то, что желают сторонники авангардных желаний, но я не сторонник авангардного исхода. И тогда вы оказываетесь во многом в дурную славу с элитой.. Для сравнения, композиторы в старые времена также должны писать музыку, котораяу годилась их благородным или клерикальным руководителям, и из этой ситуации в любом случае возникла хорошая музыка. Лучшая работа Хренникова (насколько я знаю) - его второй симфониой, но, конечно же, есть много других вещей, которые я просто не слышал.

Я недавно упомянул отчет поездке в Португалию, но в том же сборнике у меня есть статья о сложном методе получения шенгенского визы для жителей Украины.. Нам стало намного легче в ЕС посетить Украину с момента снятия визы. Но в другом направлении - нет.

POR: Para nós na União Européia, está muito fácil e barato viajar para o Portugal - um fato importante pois o próximo congresso mundial para os esperantistos terá lugar lá. Mas de Lisboa também tem algumas rotas aereas muito tentadoras para o Brasil - e não apenas para lugares como o Rio de Janeiro o São Paulo, os quais muitas companhias aéreas da Europa têm em sua agenda. Eu discuti recentemente isso com outro membro do meu clube de viagem e ele disse que eram apenas nerds de viagem como nosoutros na associação que poderiam dizer que seria idiota não visitar o Brasil quando você ficar em Lisboa .

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