AF: Toe ek sien dat Mick33 gereageer het, was my eerste kronkelige gedink dat hy op Afrikaans moet sou beantwoord word. Ek onthou nog sy kommentaaren angaande hierdie taal op HTLAL, en ironies genoeg het Afrikaans een absoluut minimale morfologie. Waarom het die Keltiese tale (en Pools) soveel daarvan? Die volgende questie was dan of ek vandag die daaglikse Keltiese tirade in Afrikaans moes skryf, en ek het in my Pharo se skoolwoordeboek gekontroleer of daar 'n woord van "declension" in Afrikaans is, en dit is daar - declensie. Maar die Keltiese tirade sal in Engels wees.
DA: Inden da vil jeg dog nævne at jeg skrev en artikel på dansk til min rejseklubs blad om det irske sprog efter mit sidste besøg (hvor jeg deltog i en Esperanto-konference i Galway). I den originale version havde jeg skamferet det danske sprog ved at indføre eclipsis og lenition og tonsvis af verbalsubstantiv-konstruktioner og andre irske mærkværdigheder - men den version turde de ikke trykke, så den version man kunne se i bladet var på normaldansk. Den originale (nærmest ulæselige) version findes formodentlig stadig i mine bunker af sendte emails, og hvis jeg finder den vil jeg citere den her.
EN: Yesterday evening I went through the pages in my grammar about adjectives, and here there are just 3 declensions. And then there are some endings, and some things faintly reminds you of the endings of nouns, but let's skip that part. The rule in singular at the other end seems to be that there seems to be lenition unless there is a reason not to have it. So in the masculine nominative and dative (?) singular and the genitive feminine don't lenite - though I would want to check the dative and extra time if there is one of the prepositions that cause eclipsis in the neighbourhood. In the plural, welll - the rule here is somewhat unsexpected, but not illogical, since there always is lenition in the plural IF the last consonant in the preceding noun is slender. If the adjective happens to be used as a predicative, then there is lenition IF the copula verb is in the past tense or in the conditional moods. Well, who could have predicted that?
What about combinations of two adjacent substantives then? It takes the book three pages to explain this (p.58-60) plus the page about cases of a substantive followed by another one in the genitive. There is one thing the notice in this last case, namely that you don't say something like "the house of-the man" in English, oh no - the only article will be between the words: "teach an fhir" - where "teach" means 'house' and "fhir" is lenitied and palatalized form of "fear", which means 'man'. But of course you can't just say 'teach fear' in Irish.
Iversen's second multiconfused log thread
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Iversen
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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread
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Iversen
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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread
IT: Ci sono due e soltanto due serie di trasmissioni che io realmente apprezzo su RaiUno. Uno si chiama Passagio a nord-ovest e l'altro si chiama SuperQuark. La notte scorsa ho visto prima il quark ordinario e poi ho seguito uno speciale quark musicale, in tutto più di tre ore di pura felicità italiana. Ho raggiunto il quark ordinari nel medio di un episodio dove si parlava dell'uso di Un episodio di parlare dell'uso di robot negli ospedali. Una scena dell'ospedale di Forlì è stata mostrata dove un dottore esperto era seduto ad una console e supervisionava un'operazione di robot fatto da uno studente di dottorato (credo non fosse su un paziente vivente) - quasi come gli istruttori di guida che hanno il proprio volante e pedali in modo che possano intervenire se lo studente fa qualcosa di assolutamente irragionevole. È stato anche dimostrato come la distribuzione di pillole e medicazioni era stata automatizzata, il che implicava che piccoli robotti facevano ciuf-ciuf tra i corridoi dell'ospedale.
In un altro episodio si parlava della città di Bologna, che è speciale per NON trovarsi vicino a un fiume. Invece, gli abitanto hanno costrutto un lungo canale da un bacino idrico nell'area. Il mio primo pensiero quando ho sentito questo è che potrebbe essere una questione militare dipendere così da una sola via d'acqua. Il nemico potrebbe usarlo come toilette o peggio: bloccare l'ingresso dell'acqua nel canale.
Per il benefizio speziale di nostro segmento della popolazione, c'era anche una sezione sul multilinguismo e la sua influenza sul cervello, e si fece riferimento a esperimenti presso un'istituzione chiamata "San Rafaele" a Milano che mostrava che il cervello diventa meno suscettibile all'Alzheimer e altre cose brutte se conosci più di una lingua - e specialmente se si continui ad imparare nuove lingue. Fortunatamente questa osservazione è stata confermata più di una volta.
EN: However this orgy of Italian television had the effect that I didn't get through everything about the verbs in my Irish grammar, so let's just consider a few points. I compared my old TY Irish from 1961, which has a tendency to be somewhat conservative in its information, with my more recent Grammar Book, and on some central things they definitely didn't agree. Once upon a time the Irish verbal system was apparently dominated by synthetic forms (in one word), but since then it has crept steadily towards analytic forms, consisting of an uninflected element and a personal subject pronoun. It would be nice if the Irish had kept the old forms OR adopted the new ones - but then they wouldn't be Irish. According to TY p. 32 the forms of "dún" (to shut) are 1s dúnaim, 2s dúnair (or dúnann tú), 3s dúnann sé/si, 1p dúnaimíd, 2p dúnann sibh, 3p dúnaid. That is: synthetic 1 person singular and plural, possibly in 2. person singular and definitely in 3. person plural. "Sé" and "si" are of course the masculine and feminine pronouns - there are no neutrum things in Ireland. The grammar book shows another 1. conjugation verb, "mol" (to recommend): 1s molaim, 2s molann tú, 3s molann sé,si, 1p molaimid, 2p molann sibh, 3p molann siad" - or in other words: only synthetic forms in the 1 person singular and plural. So before I have learned to speak Irish it is likely that ALL persons and numbers will have become analytic... you just have to wait!
What about the imperfect or past tense then ? Surely the same pattern(s)? No, this is Irish, so according to TY p. 57 the imperfect forms of "dun" are do dhúnaim, do dhúnta, do dhúnadh sé,si, do dhúnaimís, do dhúnadh sibh, do dhúnaidís. The "do" is a verbal particle, and as you can see it causes lenition. But apart from that the pattern is synthetic i 1. person singular and plural and 2. person singular, analytic in the rest. The grammar book quotes the following forms for "mol": "mhol mé, mhold tú, mhol sé, si, mholamar, mhol sibh, mhol siad. So the particle that caused the lenition has gone, and now only the first person plural still has its old synthetic form. The "do" thing has however survived if the verb begins with a vowel.
And there are other verbal particles, but let's keep those down the box for endless hours of fun later.
In un altro episodio si parlava della città di Bologna, che è speciale per NON trovarsi vicino a un fiume. Invece, gli abitanto hanno costrutto un lungo canale da un bacino idrico nell'area. Il mio primo pensiero quando ho sentito questo è che potrebbe essere una questione militare dipendere così da una sola via d'acqua. Il nemico potrebbe usarlo come toilette o peggio: bloccare l'ingresso dell'acqua nel canale.
Per il benefizio speziale di nostro segmento della popolazione, c'era anche una sezione sul multilinguismo e la sua influenza sul cervello, e si fece riferimento a esperimenti presso un'istituzione chiamata "San Rafaele" a Milano che mostrava che il cervello diventa meno suscettibile all'Alzheimer e altre cose brutte se conosci più di una lingua - e specialmente se si continui ad imparare nuove lingue. Fortunatamente questa osservazione è stata confermata più di una volta.
EN: However this orgy of Italian television had the effect that I didn't get through everything about the verbs in my Irish grammar, so let's just consider a few points. I compared my old TY Irish from 1961, which has a tendency to be somewhat conservative in its information, with my more recent Grammar Book, and on some central things they definitely didn't agree. Once upon a time the Irish verbal system was apparently dominated by synthetic forms (in one word), but since then it has crept steadily towards analytic forms, consisting of an uninflected element and a personal subject pronoun. It would be nice if the Irish had kept the old forms OR adopted the new ones - but then they wouldn't be Irish. According to TY p. 32 the forms of "dún" (to shut) are 1s dúnaim, 2s dúnair (or dúnann tú), 3s dúnann sé/si, 1p dúnaimíd, 2p dúnann sibh, 3p dúnaid. That is: synthetic 1 person singular and plural, possibly in 2. person singular and definitely in 3. person plural. "Sé" and "si" are of course the masculine and feminine pronouns - there are no neutrum things in Ireland. The grammar book shows another 1. conjugation verb, "mol" (to recommend): 1s molaim, 2s molann tú, 3s molann sé,si, 1p molaimid, 2p molann sibh, 3p molann siad" - or in other words: only synthetic forms in the 1 person singular and plural. So before I have learned to speak Irish it is likely that ALL persons and numbers will have become analytic... you just have to wait!
What about the imperfect or past tense then ? Surely the same pattern(s)? No, this is Irish, so according to TY p. 57 the imperfect forms of "dun" are do dhúnaim, do dhúnta, do dhúnadh sé,si, do dhúnaimís, do dhúnadh sibh, do dhúnaidís. The "do" is a verbal particle, and as you can see it causes lenition. But apart from that the pattern is synthetic i 1. person singular and plural and 2. person singular, analytic in the rest. The grammar book quotes the following forms for "mol": "mhol mé, mhold tú, mhol sé, si, mholamar, mhol sibh, mhol siad. So the particle that caused the lenition has gone, and now only the first person plural still has its old synthetic form. The "do" thing has however survived if the verb begins with a vowel.
And there are other verbal particles, but let's keep those down the box for endless hours of fun later.
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Josquin
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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread
The problem is once again that there isn't ONE Irish language, for which one could make up grammatical rules. The 1961 TY teaches very conservative Munster dialect, while your grammar book teaches the Official Standard. However, the latter is only an artificial compromise between the three living dialects and not an actual standardized version of living Irish.
The synthetic conjugation you cited is typical for Munster dialect. In modern Connemara and Ulster dialect, ALL the forms are analytic (except for the conditional = an modh coinníolach). The Official Standard in its infinite wisdom, however, mixes synthetic and analytic forms, so 1st person singular and plural are synthetic (labhraím, labhraímid), while the rest is analytic (labhraíonn tú/sé/sí/sibh/siad).
The "do" particle has fallen out of use in Connemara, Ulster, and the Official Standard, except for verbs beginning with a vowel (d'obair mé) or with a lenited f (d'fhág mé). All other verbs are only lenited in the past tense (thit mé). Once again, the 1st p. pl. is synthetic in the Official Standard, while all forms are analytic in Connemara and Ulster dialect (OS and Munster "labhraíomar" vs. Connemara and Ulster "labhair muid"). Once more, the Munster dialect has the most synthetic forms (do labhras, do labhrais, etc.).
Sorry, if this is somewhat redundant to what you already wrote, but maybe you like the extra information.
The synthetic conjugation you cited is typical for Munster dialect. In modern Connemara and Ulster dialect, ALL the forms are analytic (except for the conditional = an modh coinníolach). The Official Standard in its infinite wisdom, however, mixes synthetic and analytic forms, so 1st person singular and plural are synthetic (labhraím, labhraímid), while the rest is analytic (labhraíonn tú/sé/sí/sibh/siad).
The "do" particle has fallen out of use in Connemara, Ulster, and the Official Standard, except for verbs beginning with a vowel (d'obair mé) or with a lenited f (d'fhág mé). All other verbs are only lenited in the past tense (thit mé). Once again, the 1st p. pl. is synthetic in the Official Standard, while all forms are analytic in Connemara and Ulster dialect (OS and Munster "labhraíomar" vs. Connemara and Ulster "labhair muid"). Once more, the Munster dialect has the most synthetic forms (do labhras, do labhrais, etc.).
Sorry, if this is somewhat redundant to what you already wrote, but maybe you like the extra information.
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galaxyrocker
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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread
Nice to see you looking at Irish, Iversen! As Josquin mentioned, the synthetic forms are much more common in Munster Irish. That's why you're seeing them in the 1961 TY book -- it's focused primarily on the Irish of Muskerry, West Cork, a very Munster stronghold. And, despite the Caighdeán being used for around 70 years now, they still remain to be used in Munster Irish, though the do particle has started to fall out of use. It's also worth noting that synthetic forms are sometimes used as 'response forms' in Connemara. So you'll hear An mbeidh tú ag an gcóisir anocht?, to which someone might respond with Bead.
Also, the basic genitive isn't really all that hard; I've just found books explain it really poorly. It can be summed up in 4 decent examples of when and where you need the article:
[*] A library book (i.e. a book of the type found in a library) -- Leabhar leabharlainne (Here, genitive is being used as an adjective)
[*] The library book (i.e. the book of the type found in a library; not belong to a specific library) -- An leabhar leabharlainne (Again, genitive is being used as an adjective to describe what type of book it is)
[*] A library's book/ The book of a library (i.e. the book belong to a non-specified library) -- Leabhar leabharlainne
[*] The library's book/the book of the library (i.e. the book belonging to the library) -- Leabhar na leabharlainne
[*] A book of the library's books (a book out of the many the library has) -- Leabhar de chuid na leabharlainne
Now, note that there's no difference between number 1 and number 3 here, and the only time the article appears between the two words is when they're both definite. One interesting thing is that there used to be a distinction between 1 and 3, though it only appeared with feminine nouns. Some speakers still might (I would lean towards doing it). Basically, since the genitive is being treated as an adjective, it is lenited:
bróg chailín -- a girl shoe (shoe of the type girl) versus bróg cailín -- a girl's shoe.
That said, I'm not sure how widespread this is, even though it seems to me that it should still be fairly common given lenition of adjectives. Of course, that's if you speak a dialect with the genitive (Connemara Irish doesn't really use it).
Also, the basic genitive isn't really all that hard; I've just found books explain it really poorly. It can be summed up in 4 decent examples of when and where you need the article:
[*] A library book (i.e. a book of the type found in a library) -- Leabhar leabharlainne (Here, genitive is being used as an adjective)
[*] The library book (i.e. the book of the type found in a library; not belong to a specific library) -- An leabhar leabharlainne (Again, genitive is being used as an adjective to describe what type of book it is)
[*] A library's book/ The book of a library (i.e. the book belong to a non-specified library) -- Leabhar leabharlainne
[*] The library's book/the book of the library (i.e. the book belonging to the library) -- Leabhar na leabharlainne
[*] A book of the library's books (a book out of the many the library has) -- Leabhar de chuid na leabharlainne
Now, note that there's no difference between number 1 and number 3 here, and the only time the article appears between the two words is when they're both definite. One interesting thing is that there used to be a distinction between 1 and 3, though it only appeared with feminine nouns. Some speakers still might (I would lean towards doing it). Basically, since the genitive is being treated as an adjective, it is lenited:
bróg chailín -- a girl shoe (shoe of the type girl) versus bróg cailín -- a girl's shoe.
That said, I'm not sure how widespread this is, even though it seems to me that it should still be fairly common given lenition of adjectives. Of course, that's if you speak a dialect with the genitive (Connemara Irish doesn't really use it).
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Iversen
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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread
I would be more worried if the new information contradicted the things I have written so far. As I understand it I don't have to wait to see all verbal forms becoming analytic - I just have to go to Connamara. Or if I like synthetic forms, then those that have survived are found in Munster - and on the verb inflection site Verbix.com. As for the use of articles: I didn't write that there had to be an article between two substantives, but if there is one then it is there - except of course if the second substantive is in the genitive, a situation which I didn't consider (cf. Galaxyrocker's "An leabhar leabharlainne". I also forgot to mention that single word compounds made of two substantives mostly lenite no. 2.
In the meantime I have read a few things about verbs and verbal particles. Are you sitting comfortably? Good..
Irish generally avoids inversion, so if you want to pose a question you don't show it through an inversion. OK, in English inversion is also avoided, but here you cheat by using the auxiliary verb "do" as a placeholder so that the 'real' verb can move around. Not so in Irish, so here you put a particle in front of the verb (as you can do in Esperanto with its "ĉu" or in Danish with our "mon"). In the present and most other forms of the verb this particle is "an" (with eclipsis and a special verbal form called the 'dependent'), and in the past tense it is "ar" (with lenition and the special verbal form called the 'dependent'). Where did that r- come from? Oh yes, it is of course the last remnant of an old particle "ro", which lenited things AND put them in the past tense. Then "do" was invented and it pushed "ro" out of existence except when it had managed to fuse with an other particle. So now we have "nar" in the past tense ... except that it can't be that simple: according to the grammar book it is is used with the past tense of all regular verbs plus the past of some of the irregular verbs: beir, clois/cluin, ith, tabhair, tar. I would however have preferred a list of the irregular verbs whose past tense isn't associated with nar, since they are the real weirdos.
There are other verbal particles and conjunctions, and many of them have a version with -r, and every time the grammar book repeats more or less verbatim the same information - and then it's up to you to spot any differences (PS: the setup at the site Gramadach which is somewhat more handy, but it is also quite whiskey oriented). Negative sentences have of course their own particles and conjunctions. The simplest one is "ní", which becomes "nior" in the past tense, and both lenite and the same row of irregular verbs use the form without -r, and as usual "tabhair" refuses to lenite. But cave canem: there is a special form only used with the imperative: "ná"which puts an h- in front of an initial vowel. Now how did THAT happen?
So the particles inflect (or whatever you will call it), but let's see what happen to the verbs. With particles to mark questions and negation you would expect them to stay the same apart from their mutations, but no - this is Irish, after all. You get the fullest set of incongruous forms with the 'to be' verb. To save space I'll just quote the first and second persons singular. There is of course the ordinary positive present: "taím (or tá mé), tá tú", the negative present with an incorporated "ni": "nilim (or nil mé), nil tú", the lenited dependent form for use after particles: "bhfuilim (or bhfuil mé), bhfuil tú", a habitual present (!! - luckily only found with this verb): "bim, bionn tú" in the positive, "bhim, bhionn tú" in the negative (methinks preceded by "ni"?) and an eclipsed form used after particles: "mbim, mbionn tú" ... OK those were the present forms. In the past tense let's first take the positive forms "bhí me and bhí tú", but then surprise, surprise: the negative forms and forms used after particles are built on a totally different root: "raibh mé, raibh tú"... And there are of course also a present and past subjunctive and a future and a conditional and an autonomous form used because there isn't a true passive in Irish plus verbal adjectives and verbal substantives which the Irish use liberally in expressions to avoid using the regular forms of their verbs, and there are imperative forms and...
The Irish boast that they have far fewer irregular verbs than English - but they also have more irregularity in their ostensibly regular forms, and they have more of them.
In the meantime I have read a few things about verbs and verbal particles. Are you sitting comfortably? Good..
Irish generally avoids inversion, so if you want to pose a question you don't show it through an inversion. OK, in English inversion is also avoided, but here you cheat by using the auxiliary verb "do" as a placeholder so that the 'real' verb can move around. Not so in Irish, so here you put a particle in front of the verb (as you can do in Esperanto with its "ĉu" or in Danish with our "mon"). In the present and most other forms of the verb this particle is "an" (with eclipsis and a special verbal form called the 'dependent'), and in the past tense it is "ar" (with lenition and the special verbal form called the 'dependent'). Where did that r- come from? Oh yes, it is of course the last remnant of an old particle "ro", which lenited things AND put them in the past tense. Then "do" was invented and it pushed "ro" out of existence except when it had managed to fuse with an other particle. So now we have "nar" in the past tense ... except that it can't be that simple: according to the grammar book it is is used with the past tense of all regular verbs plus the past of some of the irregular verbs: beir, clois/cluin, ith, tabhair, tar. I would however have preferred a list of the irregular verbs whose past tense isn't associated with nar, since they are the real weirdos.
There are other verbal particles and conjunctions, and many of them have a version with -r, and every time the grammar book repeats more or less verbatim the same information - and then it's up to you to spot any differences (PS: the setup at the site Gramadach which is somewhat more handy, but it is also quite whiskey oriented). Negative sentences have of course their own particles and conjunctions. The simplest one is "ní", which becomes "nior" in the past tense, and both lenite and the same row of irregular verbs use the form without -r, and as usual "tabhair" refuses to lenite. But cave canem: there is a special form only used with the imperative: "ná"which puts an h- in front of an initial vowel. Now how did THAT happen?
So the particles inflect (or whatever you will call it), but let's see what happen to the verbs. With particles to mark questions and negation you would expect them to stay the same apart from their mutations, but no - this is Irish, after all. You get the fullest set of incongruous forms with the 'to be' verb. To save space I'll just quote the first and second persons singular. There is of course the ordinary positive present: "taím (or tá mé), tá tú", the negative present with an incorporated "ni": "nilim (or nil mé), nil tú", the lenited dependent form for use after particles: "bhfuilim (or bhfuil mé), bhfuil tú", a habitual present (!! - luckily only found with this verb): "bim, bionn tú" in the positive, "bhim, bhionn tú" in the negative (methinks preceded by "ni"?) and an eclipsed form used after particles: "mbim, mbionn tú" ... OK those were the present forms. In the past tense let's first take the positive forms "bhí me and bhí tú", but then surprise, surprise: the negative forms and forms used after particles are built on a totally different root: "raibh mé, raibh tú"... And there are of course also a present and past subjunctive and a future and a conditional and an autonomous form used because there isn't a true passive in Irish plus verbal adjectives and verbal substantives which the Irish use liberally in expressions to avoid using the regular forms of their verbs, and there are imperative forms and...
The Irish boast that they have far fewer irregular verbs than English - but they also have more irregularity in their ostensibly regular forms, and they have more of them.
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Josquin
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- x 1764
Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread
Perhaps, it's worth noticing that "níl" was once written "ní fhuil", which shows a certain relation to "an bhfuil". "Fuil" must have been the dependent form of "tá", which was then regularly lenited or eclipsed. Old Irish had a full set of independent and dependent forms for each verb, while today only the irregular verbs still have special dependent forms.
Also, the past tense of "bí"(= present tense "tá mé" etc.) is "bhí", not "bhé".
Also, the past tense of "bí"(= present tense "tá mé" etc.) is "bhí", not "bhé".
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Oró, sé do bheatha abhaile! Anois ar theacht an tsamhraidh.
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Iversen
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- x 15014
Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread
I have changed *bhé to bhí.
I'm sitting at a library computer right now and my grammars are far away so I will have to refrain from posting a detailed account of some area with Irish grammar, but just mention that I read about the living-fossil pronoun and the inflection-poor verb "is" yesterday evening - in both cases as an attempt to penetrate the real-life Mirkwood of Irish copula constructions. And surprise, my old TY seems to be the most informative one here - I just don't know whether its information is in agreement with current practice outside the more conservative parts of Munster, so I'll have to cross-check with my other sources..
I'm sitting at a library computer right now and my grammars are far away so I will have to refrain from posting a detailed account of some area with Irish grammar, but just mention that I read about the living-fossil pronoun and the inflection-poor verb "is" yesterday evening - in both cases as an attempt to penetrate the real-life Mirkwood of Irish copula constructions. And surprise, my old TY seems to be the most informative one here - I just don't know whether its information is in agreement with current practice outside the more conservative parts of Munster, so I'll have to cross-check with my other sources..
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mick33
- Orange Belt
- Posts: 139
- Joined: Sun Jul 12, 2015 6:39 am
- Location: Lakewood, Washington, USA
- Languages: First language: English
Languages I'm focusing on learning now: Italian.
Languages I'm learning but not focusing on: Afrikaans, Polish, Finnish Turkish, Spanish, Swedish, Catalan, Hungarian, Russian.
Just for fun I sometimes learn a little of: Hindi, Japanese, Indonesian, Georgian, Thai etc. - Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=762
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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread
Iversen wrote:AF: Toe ek sien dat Mick33 gereageer het, was my eerste kronkelige gedink dat hy op Afrikaans moet sou beantwoord word. Ek onthou nog sy kommentaaren angaande hierdie taal op HTLAL, en ironies genoeg het Afrikaans een absoluut minimale morfologie. Waarom het die Keltiese tale (en Pools) soveel daarvan? Die volgende questie was dan of ek vandag die daaglikse Keltiese tirade in Afrikaans moes skryf, en ek het in my Pharo se skoolwoordeboek gekontroleer of daar 'n woord van "declension" in Afrikaans is, en dit is daar - declensie. Maar die Keltiese tirade sal in Engels wees.
Jy is reg, ek moet inderdaad meer Afrikaans skryf sodat ek nooit die taal vergeet nie. Ek is bly om die nuwe woord declensie to leer maar ek met jou saamstem dat die kompleks Slawiese of Keltiese morfologie in Afrikaans moeilik is te verklaar.
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Iversen
- Black Belt - 4th Dan
- Posts: 4782
- Joined: Sun Jul 19, 2015 7:36 pm
- Location: Denmark
- Languages: Monolingual travels in Danish, English, German, Dutch, Swedish, French, Portuguese, Spanish, Catalan, Italian, Romanian and (part time) Esperanto
Ahem, not yet: Norwegian, Afrikaans, Platt, Scots, Russian, Serbian, Bulgarian, Albanian, Greek, Latin, Irish, Indonesian and a few more... - Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=1027
- x 15014
Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread
AF: Jy het nie regtig 'n woord vir die nominale buigstelsel in Afrikaans nodig nie - en ek het nog nooit 'n grammatika vir enige ander taal in Afrikaans gelees nie.
LA: Hodie revertus sum ex visita apud matrem, et haud studiavi quia tantum opera erant facenda - sicut baccas colligere. In toto VII chilogrammata de ribes nigra obtinuimus, et I chilogrmma de ribes ruber, sed in frutege quidem porro I aut II chilogrammata sunt, qua de matri sine auxilio collectura sunt. Mirum est tantopere provenum obtinere post siccitas ultra II mensibus - fruges idearum (rubus idaeus) pessima erat. Et nunc cogito: cur teudisci speciem ribes nigra "Heidelbeer" nominant? Librum "Duden Etymologie" consultavi et ille dixit illam nominis "Heide" (locus desertus de Erica obsitus - paret Romani nomen topiarii illi non habere) derivata esse. In lingua teudisci medievalis erat "heitber", et in lingua veterior "heitperi". Sed tunc, de unde littera "l" venit? Liber ad explicationi verborum "Eiche/Eichel" refert, obi dicitur quod "das l-suffix bezeichnet hier die Zugehörigkeit" - et ego meditor quomodo regio de nemini proprietas quam "Heide" usum verbi de "Zugehörigkeit" justificationem constituere potuisset...
EN: I have of course also spent some time on Irish during my family visit, but not as much as at home. In my last message I mentioned the old neutral pronomen "ea". My old and rather conservative TY actually has several pages about the copula constructions with the verb "is", and it quotes examples like "fear is ea é" (man is 'that' him) and "bó maith dob ea í sin" (cow good 'do'-was 'that' her she) which still boggle my mind. The first anomaly to notice is that the apparent subjects quite unexpectedly initiate their respective sentences. Then follows a copula verb in the present resp. the past tense - but in my Grammar Book there are also forms of this verb in the 1. and 2. persons and plural forms. Can "ea" be used with these other forms, for instance in a translation of a sentence like "was a curious child I?" One thought that has struck me is that the sentences with "ea" in some way might be the resultat of old cleft consctructions, but I don't know Old or middle Irish at all so that can only be a suspicion. By the way, the book (which favours old literary formula used primarily in Southern Eire) mentions that another formula is used in Northern Eire: "tá" + "i n-", like in "(is) bo mhaith do bhi inti" (she was a good cow). This information doesn't really make things clearer... where is the "tá" ??
In constructions without "ea" but with "is" the most complicated - and therefore interesting - problem is that you sometimes can repeat a pronoun that refers back to the subject, like in the example "is é an leachar é" (it's BOOK, not just a sweet cow). Apparently the possibility is precluded if the noun in the sentence is in the definite form, but in the example there is then another pronoun involved: "is é sin an leabhar" ("this is THIS the book"). The one common thing in the examples is the little "é" after "is", and now I wonder whether this"é" is used even with feminine subjects (and/or predicatives). I don't trust Google translate in general, and definitely not in Irish - however it translates "this is a cow" as "is é seo bó". Well, ... ah dunno.
LA: Hodie revertus sum ex visita apud matrem, et haud studiavi quia tantum opera erant facenda - sicut baccas colligere. In toto VII chilogrammata de ribes nigra obtinuimus, et I chilogrmma de ribes ruber, sed in frutege quidem porro I aut II chilogrammata sunt, qua de matri sine auxilio collectura sunt. Mirum est tantopere provenum obtinere post siccitas ultra II mensibus - fruges idearum (rubus idaeus) pessima erat. Et nunc cogito: cur teudisci speciem ribes nigra "Heidelbeer" nominant? Librum "Duden Etymologie" consultavi et ille dixit illam nominis "Heide" (locus desertus de Erica obsitus - paret Romani nomen topiarii illi non habere) derivata esse. In lingua teudisci medievalis erat "heitber", et in lingua veterior "heitperi". Sed tunc, de unde littera "l" venit? Liber ad explicationi verborum "Eiche/Eichel" refert, obi dicitur quod "das l-suffix bezeichnet hier die Zugehörigkeit" - et ego meditor quomodo regio de nemini proprietas quam "Heide" usum verbi de "Zugehörigkeit" justificationem constituere potuisset...
EN: I have of course also spent some time on Irish during my family visit, but not as much as at home. In my last message I mentioned the old neutral pronomen "ea". My old and rather conservative TY actually has several pages about the copula constructions with the verb "is", and it quotes examples like "fear is ea é" (man is 'that' him) and "bó maith dob ea í sin" (cow good 'do'-was 'that' her she) which still boggle my mind. The first anomaly to notice is that the apparent subjects quite unexpectedly initiate their respective sentences. Then follows a copula verb in the present resp. the past tense - but in my Grammar Book there are also forms of this verb in the 1. and 2. persons and plural forms. Can "ea" be used with these other forms, for instance in a translation of a sentence like "was a curious child I?" One thought that has struck me is that the sentences with "ea" in some way might be the resultat of old cleft consctructions, but I don't know Old or middle Irish at all so that can only be a suspicion. By the way, the book (which favours old literary formula used primarily in Southern Eire) mentions that another formula is used in Northern Eire: "tá" + "i n-", like in "(is) bo mhaith do bhi inti" (she was a good cow). This information doesn't really make things clearer... where is the "tá" ??
In constructions without "ea" but with "is" the most complicated - and therefore interesting - problem is that you sometimes can repeat a pronoun that refers back to the subject, like in the example "is é an leachar é" (it's BOOK, not just a sweet cow). Apparently the possibility is precluded if the noun in the sentence is in the definite form, but in the example there is then another pronoun involved: "is é sin an leabhar" ("this is THIS the book"). The one common thing in the examples is the little "é" after "is", and now I wonder whether this"é" is used even with feminine subjects (and/or predicatives). I don't trust Google translate in general, and definitely not in Irish - however it translates "this is a cow" as "is é seo bó". Well, ... ah dunno.
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Iversen
- Black Belt - 4th Dan
- Posts: 4782
- Joined: Sun Jul 19, 2015 7:36 pm
- Location: Denmark
- Languages: Monolingual travels in Danish, English, German, Dutch, Swedish, French, Portuguese, Spanish, Catalan, Italian, Romanian and (part time) Esperanto
Ahem, not yet: Norwegian, Afrikaans, Platt, Scots, Russian, Serbian, Bulgarian, Albanian, Greek, Latin, Irish, Indonesian and a few more... - Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=1027
- x 15014
Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread
IR: Inniu niór rinne mé staidéar ar an ngramadach gaeliche - rinne mé staidéar ar aon laethnach o Harry Potter, agus thóg mé feadh i bhfad. Tá mé a caibidil leis an litir do Harry a léamh.
RO: Și după acest experiment foarte consumatoare de timp aveam o nevoie urgentă de ceva mai ușor și am luat un ghid pentru castelul Schönbrunn, pe care l-am vizitat pe drumul de acasă de la Bratislava. Cartea însăși a fost achiziționată în legătură cu o vizită anterioară. Am citit câteva pagini, dar am în plus copiat de mână o pagină despre tre camere anumite camerele de Roza după pictorul care a ilustrat pereții cu scene din zona din jurul Aarau în Elveția, incluzând Habichtsburg, castelul din care provine genul Habsburgii, dar acum din păcate ruina. Mai mult, am observat că genitivul unui nume complex în limba română afectează doar prima parte: "Mariei Tereza".
RO: Și după acest experiment foarte consumatoare de timp aveam o nevoie urgentă de ceva mai ușor și am luat un ghid pentru castelul Schönbrunn, pe care l-am vizitat pe drumul de acasă de la Bratislava. Cartea însăși a fost achiziționată în legătură cu o vizită anterioară. Am citit câteva pagini, dar am în plus copiat de mână o pagină despre tre camere anumite camerele de Roza după pictorul care a ilustrat pereții cu scene din zona din jurul Aarau în Elveția, incluzând Habichtsburg, castelul din care provine genul Habsburgii, dar acum din păcate ruina. Mai mult, am observat că genitivul unui nume complex în limba română afectează doar prima parte: "Mariei Tereza".
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