Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

[Iversen]

Iversen,
From what you and a few other people have said, transcribing seems to be a valuable thing, but I must admit it's not something I've done much of, if at all, and certainly not recently, so I was thinking maybe I should give it a go.
1 Is there any difference, so far as you know, between the kind of transcription you mentioned in your last paragraph, and Professor Arguelles Scriptorium? (To remind myself exactly what that entailed, I googled this up: https://learnanylanguage.fandom.com/wiki/Scriptorium)
2. Do you ever translate, as you transcribe? I mean, instead of writing down what you are reading, do you ever translate it as you go along, and write that down instead?
3. Do you ever transcribe from audio? (I mean of course from a recording....something you can stop or slow down, not from a live broadcast (unless of course you are a fast writer, but I guess that fast writing would negate most of the value of this sort of exercise).
Many thanks.

Those are good questions. I am of course aware of professor Arguelles' Scriptorium, but there are several differences between his and my practices. As I understand it from the video about daily routines it seems that he copies several pages in each of a number of languages every single day before breakfast. I typically just copy one halfpage in a session - halfpage because I use bilingual printouts with languages where I still feel that the translation might be useful, albeit not necessarily strictly necessary ... but when the translation ceases to have a purpose I also become less inclined to copy texts. I also go through one language after the other in a row, but not the same ones every day.

We all know that professor Arguelles is extremely diligent (definitely more than me), but to my defence I would say that I copy shorter texts because I select texts in weak or mediocre languages that are at least j+1 (but often more than that), and that's also why I use both of the two terms 'copying' and 'studying' for my activity - at least half the time goes with the studying aspect. On the other hand I'm fairly sure that Arguelles already understands most of the texts he copies. Another difference: I never read aloud. I have tried (following the professor's suggestion), but it tires me out and I have to make stops every time I am thinking about something. And my writings are probably less orderly and pretty than his, but you can check that out by looking at the specimen below.

As for translating: I always translate in my head, but normally just write the result down on paper if I struggle to keep a whole sentence with its translation alive in my head - and this normally only happens with weak languages or extremely complicated passages (as in some Latin texts). The main exception is when I see an idiomatic expression which I want to memorize or some rare grammatical or lexicological feature which should be marked out. With idiomatic expressions the important thing is for once the 'free' translation, unless the expression also is hard to understand at the hyperliteral level.

And using spoken sources ... well, I can't say that I haven't done so, but in another context: the purpose then was to catch pronunciations, and I have then typically used speech generators with several speakers for a language since that permits me to get a feeling for the variation span. As for classical dictations with sentences separated by pauses - well, I participated passively in a French dictation test on TV5 last year, and even though I didn't reach ground zero, my error number was below that of most of the invited native VIPs. In principle it should be possible to do it with Audacity, where you can set a marker when a new sentence starts and return to that point again with a single keypress - but, no, that's not something I have done. In those periods where I'm most busy with music it is also more difficult to find time for listening attentively to speech. I do watch TV, and sometimes I also have an Youtube lecture in some language running, but those activities are of course competing for my attention.

PS: it has nothing to do with the scriptorium vs. copying/studying, but I fairly often practice 'on-the-fly' translation while watching TV (or particpating in conversations in other foreign languages, though with corona raging around my ears that option isn't really relevant right now). I have mentioned it earlier, but the idea is that you try to hang on to an external source while you try to translate as much as possible - and with anything apart from my best languages the result will of course be quite appalling and not suitable for publication, but it is a good training in keeping the speed you later need to muster in a real conversation with a native speaker in order to be taken seriously.

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[Iversen]

I have continued my lactean studies with an article about kefir in Bulgarian (with a translation in Esperanto) and a long one in Dutch about cheese (without a translation) plus one about the unsteady behaviour of the Sun in Icelandic and one more about tapirs in Indonesian, and on my goodnight-reading-chair I still have my collection of Wikipedia texts in Italian dialects which I have mentioned earlier. On top of that I have of course been reading texts on the internet that somehow were related to music or other tings, but I generally don't attempt to keep track of my extensive peripaties on the internet. And I have absolutely no idea about the number of printed pages that would correspond to, but it would be quite a few - including the one I just read about roquefort cheese in French (see below).

When I wrote about my copy-study practice two days ago I mentioned that I tend to use bilingual printouts as long as it 'is relevant'. OK, what does that mean? Basically it means that that I keep using bilingual printouts as long as I am guided more than I'm mislead by the translations, which mostly are machine-made. OK, there are touristical recommandations and EU documents and Harry Potter translations that are supposed to be fairly loyal to the original, but it is easier just to let GT have its way.

And there is one thing more that makes me cling to the bilingual format: I try to use different translation languages, and even if you definitely shouldn't trust a GT translation it can't harm to have a brief look at it and then return to the original text. As for the new words I jot down for later use I add a Danish translation irrespectively of the language used for the translation (unless the Danish translation is ambiguous and there is a better one in another language).

FR: Bon ben, selon Wikipedia il y a seulement sept compagnies en France qui ont le droit de produire le 'vrai' roquefort puisque le nom est protégé par des lois de l'UE, et une seule compagnie nommée Lactalis en fait les 70%. Heureusement il y a des produits qui ressemblent beaucoup et qu'on peut produire librement. Par example on fait au Danemark un fromage nommé Danablu, et donc il fait très longtemps depuis la dernière fois que j'ai gouté le produit original français - si jamais. En principe, le mot roquefort "ou ròcafòrt en occitan rouergat" (ròc = forteresse) devrait signifier "un fromage français à pâte persillée élaborée exclusivement avec des laits crus de brebis", et " Il poursuit son affinage de 90 jours minimum dans une salle de maturation, à la température contrôlée, ce qui permet de réguler l'évolution du Penicillium roqueforti". En principe cette salle de maturation devrait être une grotte, mais il semble qui n'y ait pas assez de caves en France pour tous les fromages qu'on produit là - 258 sortes selon Charles de Gaulle, et cela pourrait même être sous-estimé..

DU: Nederlanders zijn ook heel trots op hun kaas-tradities, en in Alkmaar rollen ze vrolijk met hun ronde kazen rond op de kaasmarkt van de stad ter ere van de toeristen. Ik ben feitelijk in de stad geweest, maar helaas niet op een kaasrollendag. Maar waar eet je de MEESTE kaas ter wereld? In Nederland? Nee .. In Frankrijk? Nee ... In Denemarken: JAAAAA !!!!! We eten elk jaar tonnen van kaas in dit land, en het meeste wordt thuis in Denemarken gemaakt. Een derde van de consumptie bestaat uit het Danbo-type - let op de naam! - en sommige supermarkten verkopen soorten die zijn vernoemd naar Scandinavische goden (mijn favoriete kaas is Loki, wegens dat die komijn bevat). Mensen die van goed gerijpte kazen houden, kopen een type genaamd "Gamle Ole" (oude Ole), en er is geloof ik, ook een kaas genaamd "Gamle Oles Oldemor " (Oud Ole zijn overgrootmoeder) ..

IT: .. ma lasciamo agli sardi il compito di mangiare formaggio con larve vive di mosche.

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EDIT: edited

[oho]

IT: .. ma lasciamo agli italiani il compito di mangiare formaggio con acari vivi.

Larve di mosche, non acari. E lo mangiano solo i sardi. L'articolo non lo posso leggere ma sarei interessato a sapere cosa dice.

[Iversen]

Thanks for the corrections. I suppose Italians already know this notorious kind of cheese (otherwise GT will be more than happy to translate the Danish text into Italian, and I have checked that the putrid message comes over in a fairly unadulterated form). However the rest of the world should definitely know about this unusual Sardinian contribution to gastronomy so I'll write a few words about it in ... no, not English, but Scots.

DA: Casu Marzu betyder rådden ost på italiensk
EN: Casu Marzu means rotten cheese in Sardinian (not Italian)
IT: Casu Marzu significa formaggio marcio nel sardo

SCO: Casu Marzu is a traditioneel tho controversiel kyn o kebbock made frae sheep's milk fra the Italian isle o' Sardinia, whare it has been makkit for hunders o years. The cheese differs fra ither cheeses in that it is posed oot aboot fair a time as a pairt o the production process. Than a hole is carved amidst o the muckle round cheese wharein the flee Piophila Casei can lay its eggs. The flee is kent tae seek feed left in the open and nae pertected. Its eggs become mauks that birk aroond in the cheese and excrete an enzyme whit contreebutes tae the consistencie and particular gou o the cheese. Acause o the verra speicial treatmant and provokeed foostin wi live mauks it has becomed illeasom tae sell and cairy it thort EU borders. Whan the flees lay thair eggs in the creashie cheese, they forby this aw ramsh the goodies and gamp the cheese. They leave aback thair shite whit adds fat, proteine and succar tae this Sardinian gulshoch. The consistencie o the cheese is mickle sappie, awmaist like parritch, and the strang ammonia humf o the Casu Marzu is notour for givin a vile afterkneggum that can set fair oors efter the comsumtion.

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[Montmorency]

I'm a big fan of cheese as well; most of the English ones, some French ones, some Dutch, especially Gouda, which is said to be rich in the all important vitamin K2, although most fermented foods contain it, including kefir, which you also mention, and which I also like. Sauerkraut also contains it; I've tried to make this, so far without success, although on paper, it's very easy. The richest source though is said to be the Japanese food: natto (fermented soy beans), which is said to terrify westerners, certainly this westerner.

Supposedly, one of the favourite traditional foods of the Inuit was rotten fish, and for them, it had a similar relationship that cheese does to modern westerners, for perhaps similar reasons. c.f the writings of the Icelandic-American explorer Vilhjalmur Stefansson. My guess (and it's only a guess) is that it also provided them with some essential nutrient that would otherwise be denied them.

[oho]

Napule, 'a terza cità d'Italia ppe ggente, è 'o cchiù gruosso ammazzuccato urbano d’’o paese (doppo chillo 'e Milano) ed è settema 'int’’a crassifeca d’’e aree urbane cchiù pupulose d'Europa.

Quelli dei lettori che sono italiani nativi o capiscono l'italiano abbastanza bene non avranno problemi a decodificare questo passaggio - ma cosa significa mai "chillo"?

Chillo 'e Milano = That of Milan

chillo = that
'e = of

Naples is the third city in Italy by inhabitants, it's the biggest urban agglomeration in the country (after Milan's [urban agglomeration]) and it's the seventh in the list of the most populous urban areas in Europe.

ma per il resto credo bisogna essere linguista per capire perché il sardo è considerato una lingua e il siciliano solo un dialetto.

Sicilian is a language. It originated from Latin indipendently of Tuscan/Italian. Pretty much all so-called "dialects" are in fact languages that originated from Latin like Tuscan/Italian did. Why are they called dialects? I don't know, I can only speculate that they're called so to be belittled. Why are some of them considered minority languages by the Italian State? I don't know.

Anyway you have to pay attention and differentiate between what the linguists say and what the Italian State says. The linguists say that pretty much all "dialects" of Italy are languages and their method is scientific. The Italian State says that many are dialects and some are languages. But this is just a political decision not supported by evidence.

[Iversen]

IT: Certo, è chiaro quando si pensa un po'. La parola "chillo" deve essere derivata dal latino "quello" - ma la mia attenzione era tutta sull'elemento mancante nell'elenco, Roma, la città più grande d'Italia.

Per quanto riguarda il problema con dialetti contro lingue, questo non è un problema puramente italiano. I dialetti di Jutlandia quasi certamente non derivano dai dialetti di Copenaghen, che attraverso la pressione politica e mediatica divennero gli ingredienti principali della cosa chiamata "Standarddansk" che la maggior parte di noi danesi oggi parla (con piccole variazioni geografiche, sociali ed basate sull'età delle persone). Ad esempio, i 'dialetti' juti non adottavano mai l'articolo determinativo postclitico: non è il caso che una volta lo avessero e poi lo hanno perso. Tuttavia i governi centralizzanti e media localizzate nella capitale hanno sempre tentato di affermare che la loro variante è il vero standard e tutto il resto sono deviazioni da quello - deviazioni da eradicare se possibile.

Per quanto riguarda lo status dello sardo è sempre stato chiamato una lingua e il siciliano un dialetto, anche nelle fonti linguistiche che ho visto, ma se accettiamo il criterio dello scissione contro lo sviluppo parallelo, allora rimarranno pochissimi dialetti - forse è questo il motivo per cui questo scelto non è stato universalmente accettato (nemmeno tra i linguisti).

Platt: Een anner ölle Spraak wat nu männichmal als Dialekt instöft warrn vun Hoogdüütschschnacker - aver vor Luther keeneen harrt segt dat Platt nich en Spraak wörr, und die Spraakkönnige höffen konstateert dat die Ölle Sassch nich die tweete Lüutverschiebung (die Hoogdüütsch defineert) mitmaakt het. Aver vundaag warrt Platt vun Hoogdüütsch so gliek erodeert dat die ölle Spraak sich an Hoogdüütsch negert (aver nich annersrüm!), und sich somit degradeert dat Leege Düütsch (Platt) to een Dialekt vun een önner Spraak, Hoogdüütsch, wat egens bloots een laate Tohobbringsel vun Middeldüütsche Varianten is.

SCO: The seetiation of Leeland Scots is a wee bit different - thare cannae be ony dout that it wis derived frae Northern Sassenach variants that fair political-historical-dynastical raisons pusht oot the originel Gaelic leed frae the feck o Scotland ootby the Hielands (lang afore the union wi England). But the nou 'tis being piece and piece smitten wi wirds and constructions and idioms frae ivermair Sootherly variants of Breetish English to the extent that hairdlins onything but the pronunciation remeens.

CAT: A propòsit, ahir al vespre vaig escoltar una xerrada a Youtube sobre la història de la llengua catalana - en català, és clar. I, tot i que la llengua (!) catalana ha sobreviscut i sigui recolzada pels catalans, es troba sota la pressió del castellà, des d’on adopta paraules, modismes i construccions. Però també vaig veure que hi havia un altre vídeo on alguns habitants de les Illes Balears es distanciaven de la Catalunya continental. I els parlants remanents del valencià afirmen que el seu valencià (que ironicament gairebé no es parla més en la ciutat de Valencia) NO és el català - però el problema és que tots estan al mateix vaixell i estan atacats pel castellà, de manera que en realitat debiliten la posició del seu idioma comù (no importa com s’anomena) lluitant contra cadascun altres.

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[oho]

Rome is the largest city but Milan has the largest metropolitan area AFAIK. And according to that article after Milan comes Naples. Interesting.

[Iversen]

I have not listened as assiduously to music during last couple of days as I have done for several months before that, but I did spend time on my music collection. To make things clearer I bought vinyl records from the 60s op to around 1990, and I recorded things on 60 minut cassette tapes from the 70s onwards - including a special collection of tapes that contained almost everything I had on vinyl. In 1991-92 I started a new cassette collection on 90- and 100-minut tapes which basically duplicated everything in the old collection plus a lot of new items, but this time organized in such a way that major composers had one or more tapes named after them, and then 'smaller' composers filled out the holes.

A few years ago I then decided that it was about time to produce a new generation of recordings (using space gobbling waw files and smaller MP3 files in parallel), and to speed up things I kept the old system with named 'tapes' with an 'a' and a 'b' side and duration between 40 and 50 minutes per file. And now I have over several years spent my time on shuffling pieces around adding some pieces and replacing others, but also on minimizing the problems with old recordings that had LP scratches and hissing and humming and echoes from the tape generation - and on top of that I have also tried to get rid of nondescript general denominations like 'pavane' or 'canzona'. This last task has taken me through some hefty studying sessions, using the indexes on IMSLP and other internet sources, including Youtube.

Now I'm almost finished doing those things, and although I may still run into items that should be replaced due to unbearably bad sound (mostly caused by scratchy vinyl passed on via mediocre ferro cassettes) I doubt that there will be much shuffling around any more. But I will be spending time on revising the theme collection, and this will take some time away from my language studies and other activities, but that's the price for having two time consuming hobbies.

GER: Und jetzt ist es Zeit für ein bißchen Nostalgie. Als ich in den 1960er Jahren anfing, Musik zu sammeln, konnte man in den Grenzbasaren südlich der dänisch-deutschen Grenze billige Schallplatten und Pakete mit drei Ferro-Kassetten für je 5 DM kaufen (etwa 20 dänische Kronen). Und einige würden vielleicht denken, daß solch Billigwaren Scheiße waren, aber so war is nicht - auch nicht im Vergleich zu Aufzeichnungen für 25 DM pro Schallplatte und teure Chromkassetten. Aber heute, da ich mit Nadelgeräuschen und Echos zu kämpfen habe, muß ich feststellen, daß die Technik damals nicht gut genug war. Ich verstehe nicht, daß es immer noch Nostalgiker gibt, die über eine Renaissance für Vinyl sprechen - ich war 50 Jahre lang mit Vinyl zufrieden weil wir keine bessere Medium hatten (außer Radiosendungen, und FM war OK, aber aber die Langwelle aß alle die hohen Frequenzen, und deshalb habe ich sehr wenige Radioaufnahmen in meiner Sammlung heute - und auch weil ich die Programmen nicht selber gestalten konnte). Aber dann kam die CD Welle, und wir konnten sehen, was wir vermißt hatten. Es ist nur traurig, daß so viele exzellente Aufnahmen nie auf modernere Medien übertragen wurden. Einige wenige wurde basiert auf professionelle Bänder in den Verlagshäuser wieder herausgegeben, aber meistens nicht die am meisten unersetzliche - eher Paketen mit Karajan und die good-damn-bloody Symphonien von Brahms oder Beethoven noch einmal. Aber ich habe mich bereits damals for weniger breitgetretenen Pfaden interessiert...

EN: Ok, time for a language change. Check check check .. oh I haven't written anything in Romanian for some time so here goes ....

RO: Am căutat prin catalogul primei mea colecție de casete audio și am comparat o parte din aceea cu catalogul colecției mea actuală (și probabil ultima) - deoarece colecționez doar muzică clasică nu există prea multe motive să mă aștept la o avalanșă de articole nye care trebuie integrate. Privind înapoi la vechiul catalog, ne dezvăluie că atunci făceam casete cu conținut cel mai heterogen posibil- și nu numai pentru că trebuia să folosesc "umpluturi"” pentru a evita spațiul gol al fin, deoarece fiecare direcție de pe o bandă durau între 31 și 32 de minute (sau 46-51 de minute pentru a doua mea colecție de casete). Și nu am știut niciodată în prealabil ce oferte se găseau în magazinele de discuri - ai luat ceea ce îți permiți al ta economia. Și asta nu s-a schimbat când au ieșit CD-urile - sunetul doar s-a îmbunătățit mult.

Nu cred că voi accepta în viitor ca un canal de radio sau TV sau un magazin local de discuri să decidă ce ar trebui să ascult pe muzică. Acum am suficientă muzică pentru a începe cu Adam 1a și a termina cu Zelenka 2b mai mult de un an mai târziu- și apoi pur și simplu o iau tot inca o data de la capăt...

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[Iversen]

EN: As I have mentioned earlier I have for some time been busy rereading my own log thread - but I had a period where I got diverted away from this project. Now I have restarted the process, and as it happens I have started at page 100 with the history of classical music from Hurrian hymns over Bach and Beethoven and Bruckner all the other guys to... no, not myself (even though all my compositions have been uploaded to IMSLP nobody have taken notice), but modern film music at page 135. Or in other terms: this project lasted from the end of December 2019 to mid February 2020. However as soon as I had finished the series Hell broke loose with the corona pandemy - luckily I had visited Southern india a few weeks before, but since February last year I haven't left Denmark. And for much of the time our museums and libraries have been restricted or even closed.

LAT: 2020 annus terribilis fuit, sed historia mundi plea est annis terribilibus. Vita sub mortem nigram aut per triginta annos bellum aeque non facilis erat.

EN: This history of music is of course written in the relevant languages, including some I haven't mastered actively like Occitan on page 130. I was hard to concoct the message since I had to guess at something and then check each word in my one and only Occitan dictionary, which goes from Ancient Occitan to Modern French, and I also had to consult the grammar notes I made when I followed a course in the 70s. But how can you write about the troubadours in something like French, knowing what the French did to the Occitan culture?

The last couple of days I have actually reorganized my tapes with some of the English virginal composers - like Gibbons, Bull, Farnaby and some minor names like Cutting, Peerson and Munday (not Dowland and Byrd, whom I reorganized some time ago). And you do learn a few things along the way - like for instance that an otherwise unknown person named William Tisdall (or Tisdale) is represented with a Pavan to lady Tregian.. and actually the assumption is that the most important collection of English virginal music, the Fitzwilliam Virginal Booke, was compiled by a member of the Tregian family while he was incarcerated for his papist leanings (it was a dangerous time not to follow the religion of the ruling majesty), and if you read the biographies of the composers which are represented in it a surprising number of them were shared his beliefs. And several became quite depressed if you can trust their work names - most clearly Dowland, who wrote a lot of music about tears and crying and sorrow - including a piece aptly named "Semper Dowland semper dolens". I have earlier written about this sad soul, but yesterday I noticed that his Swiss collegue Senfl may have shared this kind of mood,

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GER: Herrn Senfl hat solche fröhliche Werke geschrieben als "Patientiam Mueß Ich Han", "Ach Elslein", "Ellend bringt Peyn", "Nasci, pati, mori" und - am schlimmsten - "Unsäglich Schmerz". Übrigens waren alle Leute damals anscheinend extrem religiös,und sie haben tonnenweise religiöser Orgelchorale geschrieben zur Ehre dem Jesum und seiner Mutter Marie. Es ist schwer für einer wie ich ganz einfach zu fassen, wie bedrückend es gewesen sein muß, sein ganzes Leben lang mit solch bedrückendend Gedanken in seinem Kopf herumzurennen. Aber es gibt trotzdem auch einige Spuren von wahrer Lebensfreude, zum Beispiel in Tanzsammlungen wie Terpsichore von M.Praetorius und Widmanns Sammlung Musikalischer Tugendspiel. Und mitten im Tanz sind dann die Priester gekommen und haben ihnen gesagt, daß sie alle Sünder waren und im Hölle ewig brennen würden, wenn sie nicht sofort ein Beiträg zur ihren Kirche zahlten ...

Aber es könnte noch schlimmer werden:

RU: В 1648 году русский царь Алексей Михайлович просто запретил всю нецерковную музыку. Все музыкальные инструменты подлежали немедленному уничтожению, а деревенских музыкантов выгнали в пустыню. И священники искренне поддержали эту инициативу. Ученые считают, что балалайка была изобретена потому, что после снятия запрета музыкантам пришлось быстро обзавестись новыми инструментами.

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