Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

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Iversen
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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby Iversen » Wed Aug 28, 2019 3:35 pm

Last Saturday I wrote that I had done my multi-wordlists with repetitions minus Russian and the Non-Indoeuropean languages (Esperanto, Finnish and Indonesian). I finished those Sunday, and how then to celebrate that? Well, I walked around couple of local lakes (some 11 or 12 km), and after that I didn't feel like doing aught. Monday I decided that the most relevant action would .. well, not again?? .. oh, yes, one more series of wordlists with 30 languages and two columns per language with 30+ words each. It may sound absurd to those who haven't tried it, but taking one language after the other and doing a standardized task is actually not as hard as it may sound.

So Monday I did wordlists for English, Scots, Afrikaans, Dutch and Low German, but then I had to leave for the language café thing. I did the repetitions Monday evening for those languages, and then Tuesday I stayed at home the whole day, which permitted me to do wordlists for the remaining languages minus the non-Indoeuropean ones, i.e. High German, Icelandic, Norwegian, Swedish, Latin, Old French, New French, Portuguese, Spanish, Catalan, Italian, Romanian, Greek, Albanian, Bulgarian, Serbian, Slovak, Czech, Polish, Ukrainian, Russian and - last, but not least - Irish.

But then I was totally exhausted and went to bed, where I studied a couple of articles in Russian about king Davit IV Aghmashenebeli 'the builder' (1073- 1125) and king Georgi III and his daughter, the mighty queen Tamara. Together these rulers cover the golden age of Georgia, but a few years after the death of queen Tamara the Mongols happened to pass by, and that was the end of the glorious era. The picture was taken in the main church of Gelati and show a series of kings, but I'm not quite sure which ones - sadly I can't see queen Tamara anywhere (unless her robe is of exactly of the same type as that of her predecessors).

Today I did the remaining three languages and then went to the art museum,
GER: wo ich nochmals ein Bissel Deutsch gesprochen habe,
ENG: .. and then I spoke in English with another from the resident artist's group from New York, but this time in English, and
FR: .. il a mentionné qu'il y avait une dame là qui non seulement parlait le Français, mais qui en effet était de nationalité française - encore qu'elle vivait à Nouveau York maintenant. Et elle était en train de produir des unicornes verts, ce qui évidemment fut un sujet fort convenable pour une petite discussion en français sur les animaux rares et précieux. Je me demande ce qu'il y a encore de nationalités dans leur groupe...

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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby jeff_lindqvist » Wed Aug 28, 2019 9:15 pm

Iversen wrote:So Monday I did wordlists for English, Scots, Afrikaans, Dutch and Low German, but then I had to leave for the language café thing. I did the repetitions Monday evening for those languages, and then Tuesday I stayed at home the whole day, which permitted me to do wordlists for the remaining languages minus the non-Indoeuropean ones, i.e. High German, Icelandic, Norwegian, Swedish, Latin, Old French, New French, Portuguese, Spanish, Catalan, Italian, Romanian, Greek, Albanian, Bulgarian, Serbian, Slovak, CZech, Polish, Ukrainian, Russian and - last, but not least - Irish.


I'm usually not against studying similar languages simultaneously but the mere thought of doing Afrikaans and Dutch the same day makes my head spin. Then I saw the array of Slavic languages - Bulgarian, Serbian, Slovak, Czech, Polish, Ukrainian, Russian. :shock:

Thumbs up for finishing with Irish.
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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby Iversen » Thu Aug 29, 2019 9:12 am

SW: Jag känner egentligen inte att det är ett stort problem att bearbeta en rad av språk - även inte om språken är relaterade. Det skulle vara mycket värre om jag var tvungen att arbeta med ett språk och lyssna på ett annat på samma gång - något sådant skulle definitivt inte fungera. Men vad som är värre är att jag tar orden i varje serie från samma område i alfabetet, den här gången från mitten av "o" ("om" eller "ol") ock framåt. Så borde förvirringen ju vara maximal, men det är den inte - tvärtom: jag känner skillnaderna mellan språkene mycket mer intensivt, och detta gäller inte minst dom som jag ännu inte har studerat (som tjeckiska och ukrainska). Jag tror faktiskt att denna övning är identitetsbildande snarare enn språkidentitetsforstörande.

NO: Og underveis oppdager man uventete ting, som at sjölv norsk bokmål er eit egenartete språk, fullt av ord for vindretninger og elementer fra livet på de bratte fjellskråningene og uventete skrivemåter. Når eg sjå bokmål, likner det på dansk skrive av ei gjennomsnittlig andreklasse skoleelev, men ordboka min sier likevel at det er fullt av sære ord. Og hvis lista over nynorskord i boka ikkje hadde taket slutt, ville dette blitt enda mer merkbart..

Her noen norske værord:
liggevær: weather so bad that it forces boats to stay in the harbour
landsynning*: wind from Southeast
landnørding*: wind from Northeast
landrøn - wind from the landside
langalde - long wawes at sea
landstorm - storm coming from the landside
sjøbris - light wind coming from the sea
*: the point seems to be that almost all coasts in Norway are positioned so that Southeasterly winds by definition come from the landside

mirakel: når det IKKJE regner i Bergen

AF: En so is dit ook die geval met Afrikaans teenoor t' Nederlands: hoe weet jy die verskil? Wel, u buig nie die werkwoorde nie, u sê altyd "nie" twee keer en dan leen u 'n paar y's uit die Fries.

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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby Iversen » Fri Aug 30, 2019 10:50 pm

I woke up this morning from a Greek dream. I don't remember much of the preceding moments, but for some reason I was trying to buy ice cream in Greek - and then I couldn't remember the word for "ice cream" (Παγωτό). I tried to reformulate the request, but sadly I couldn't remember the word for 'ice cold' either (because it is παγωμένος) - and then I woke up. So no ice cream in the dream, but I have of course looked the word up afterwards, and I have even read the article about ice cream in the Greek Wikipedia.

GR: Το άρθρο αναφέρει τα ακόλουθα σχετικά στοιχεία: "frozen yogurt, σορμπέ και τζελάτο" - και στη συνέχεια αναρωτιέμαι αν μη πωλείται παγωμένη γιαούρτι στην Ελλάδα, αφού δεν υπάρχει προφανώς καμία ελληνική λέξη για το προϊόν. Ποτέ δεν έχω δοκιμάσει ελληνική γεύση σε παγωμένοη γιαούρτι ...

By the way: being in Dreamland in Greek apparently has its own adjective: "ονειροπάρμενος". Which just goes to show that even the most weird and arcane words on a wordlist some day may turn out to be quite relevant and useful.

Apart from that I have been downtown for some of the activities on the first day of our local 'festuge' (festival week), but quite honestly - if I didn't live here it is not an event that would make me buy a weeklong holiday here. I see forward to a street art exhibition (like those we have had in 2017 and 18) because the artworks there are among those that resemble my own works the most, and today (Saturday) I'll definitely take a bus to a Northern suburb to see a one day reptile fair, but that's about it. I'll avoid the music polluted areas like the plague and just hope that the malady passes soon.

In my wordlist project I have now done the repetitions for the Germanic and Romance languages plus Latin, Greek and Albanian. I have noticed one tiny detail that may be relevant also for those who don't do wordlists, namely that when I read a series of word pairs I should always start with the word in the target language. If I start with the one in Danish (or whatever base language I'm using) then my mind will somehow accept this as the main object and the target language word as merely its translation - and that's not what I wanted. This may seem a rather insignificant detail, but it does seem to influence the outcome of the exercise.

In my music listening project I have passed blissfully through the likes of Schubert and the Schumanns and Скря́бин and Sermisy and Servais and Déodat de Sévérac, which means that today's diet mainly has featured music of Ravi Shankar and his brilliant daughter Anoushka plus some other Indian composers. Of course I should have written this in Hindi, but we all have our limits. I did however read in the English wikipedia that Ravi's real name was Robindro Shaunkor Chowdhury, and that "Pandit" (which is often used before Ravi S) just means 'master'. OK, then I have learnt something even today. The next composer in the row will be Дми́трий Дми́триевич Шостако́вич.

DA: Billedet nedenunder forestiller Århus festuge 1981:

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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby javier_getafe » Sat Aug 31, 2019 6:24 pm

Iversen wrote:9
In my wordlist project I have now done the repetitions for the Germanic and Romance languages plus Latin, Greek and Albanian. I have noticed one tiny detail that may be relevant also for those who don't do wordlists, namely that when I read a series of word pairs I should always start with the word in the target language. If I start with the one in Danish (or whatever base language I'm using) then my mind will somehow accept this as the main object and the target language word as merely its translation - and that's not what I wanted. This may seem a rather insignificant detail, but it does seem to influence the outcome of the exercise.


This is precisely what I have always thought and even assumed when I am working in my extensive wordlist (or at least I like to tell myself that it is extensive but perhaps it is not). Nonetheless I have asked this question in several forums (evern here) and I have found out people with complete different opinion. This is why I am actually in two minds about what method is the best :shock:

By the way, beatiful painting, as always
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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby Iversen » Sun Sep 01, 2019 10:50 pm

I can't see why anyone would want to focus on the word in the base language. And I have been doing repetitions of the remaining eleven languages on my lists today so I should know.

SER: Видим сада програм са возпутницом Цхрисом Таррантом, који овај пут путујући возом за Босну и из ње. Такође ја самтамо возио возом пре и после грађанског рата. У 1986 години возио сам се од обале до Мостара и видео стари мост. И 2003. године возио сам ноћним возом из Сарајева за Врпоље у Хрватској (и господин за Београд). Сви сигнали на рути су украдени или уништени, тако да је воз био веома спор. Таррант хвали пут влака из Мостара до Сарајева, али ја никад га нисам пробао. На недавном путовању у околини возио сам се аутобусом.

IT: A proposito: ho visto televisione com audio oggi, il che è attualmente assai raro. Fu una trasmissione italiana di RaiUno su Pompei, e la maggior parte di essa aveva molto senso - ma me ne son scivolato quando due vecchi sciocchi gesticolanti hanno iniziato una sua discussione - chiaramente imparata a memoria. Di solito guardo la TV senza audio perché ascolto musica, ma il mio computer non era ancora acceso. In questo momento sto ascoltando le tredici ore di Sibelius della mia collezione musicale, ma poiché finora non ho studiato il finlandese, non posso ancora scriverne qualsiasi cosa. Cioè la pena per avere un orizzonte linguistico troppo stretto, ma almeno il finlandese è tra le lingue rappresentate nel mio progietto di liste di vocabulario.

EN: It would take a long time and be somewhat tedious if I should comment on all the words on my lists, but I'll just mention a few items. For instance the word "operator" is found in almost the all languages, and in almost all off them it means the person who works at a machine (or supervises it if it is a ¨'smart' machine), and in English you can also speak about for instance a 'tour operator'. But in the Romance languages it shares another common meaning, namely a stock exchange speculator. Not so in the Slavic languages: here it means a camera man. On the other hand: almost all the languages have adopted one word from Danish, namely "Ombudsman" and kept its meaning - i.e. the civil servant whose job it is to supervise the running of public services, based on complaints from ordinary citizens. That's a nice thing. "Guter Onkel" (good uncle) in German is not nearly as nice - it means a child molester. And "Omamöbel" (grandma furniture) is old decrepit furniture inherited from one's ancestors (male as well as female).

BU: След като завърших речниците, изучих български текст за скитите, стар безскрупулен конник, който вероятно говореше ирански език (който е индоевропейски език) и погребали аристократите си в могилни 'кургани'. И, разбира се, мисля за Ямнате, но скитите са живели хиляди години по-късно.

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Iversen
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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby Iversen » Mon Sep 02, 2019 8:37 pm

I went once again to the weekly language club at the library, and we started out with the lady who only wants to speak English and me and a young lady who wanted to speak Spanish. However soon after we got three more people: and one of them wanted to speak speak - and then we split into and English speaking and a Spanish speaking group. And then even more people arrived, including two persons who could speak Spanish (one of them a native Argentinian) and a lady who taught Greek at an evening school. Then we reorganized once again - and I had a discussion in Danish about language learning principles with the teacher. And I think she got a little shocked about some of my ideas, but in a positive way.

For instance I mentioned that the morphology of the Greek verbs clearly points to a system with present and past of non-aorist and aorist for both active and passive plus an analytic past - but her teaching materials obscured this simple system because they treated the diverse uses of the 'present' aorist (or 'indefinit') in different ways according to its mode in different sentence types, whereas they discussed the 'past' aorist by comparing it with the imperfect, i.e. from the perspective of aspect.

The logical thing would however be to show the morphological system as separate from the syntactic system.

Behind this schisma lies the problem that Greek has lost its infinitive. This means that the Greeks don't say "she wants to buy cheese", but instead something like "she wants that she buy cheese" (where the second 'buy' is in the subjunctive) - and in the past tense this construction retains the same verbal form in the subordinate: "ήθελε να αγοράσει τυρί" - which leaves the past aorist free to be used exclusively as a perfective past tense form. But this shouldn't be used as an excuse to hide the simplicity of the morphological tables.

By the way: I also recommended that she told her pupils to think "hun ønsker/ønskede at hun købe ost" ('she wants/wanted to she buy cheese') instead of the irrelevant Danish construction with an infinitive. If you really want to learn to think the Greek way, then it is contraproductive to force yourself to think according to the patterns of Danish or English. And that idea was well received. Actually it was one of the points I would have discussed in Bratislava ... well, shit, the gatherings are dead.

Of course I also showed my triple column wordlists, where the central point is that you only can memorize words efficiently if you train active recall instead of merely repeating one word and its translation again and again. And I made my usual plaidoyer for bilingual texts - even when you can't get a perfect translation it is better than not having a translation at all.

GR: Παρεμπιπτόντως, παρατήρησα ότι τα πράσινη φύλλα μου της γραμματικής δεν έδειξαν επαρκώς αυτά τα θέματα, οπότε τώρα θέλω να τα αναθεωρήσω.

PS: since I wrote the text above I have checked Wikipedia, and here the anonymous authors juxtapose imperfective and perfective (each with its own stem), where the aorist just is the past tense of the perfective 'column' and the non-past perfective form is called the subjunctive. This is of course another way of describing the system, and it has its merits. Maybe I'll adopt it - but then they go on to call the composed (or analytic) past the 'perfect', and that's an unnecessary loan from one of the most purulent and misleading parts of English grammatical nomenclature. No need to copy that...

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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby Iversen » Tue Sep 03, 2019 2:58 am

I have now made the revised version of my green grammar sheet for the Greek verbs - in an alpha version that still may contain errors and definitely isn't complete. For instance the verbs with accent on the final syllable (ώ) in the present tense come in three flavours, depending on the preceding vowel. And there are several ways to form the stems in the perfective and the passive perfective, but I have only shown one for each group of verbs. I have of course also used the grammatical names I mentioned in the preceding message, but if you check other sources then you will in all likelihood see other names used.

For instance the present participle (οντας or ωντας) is mostly called gerund in Anglophone sources, but the justification for this appears to be rather shaky. The form used in the compound perfect (or whatever you prefer to call it) is an invariant thing that goes back to an extinct aorist infinitive, but now it is ONLY used with the auxiliary έχω to form the analytic perfect and plusquamperfectum and some related constructions - there is no hint left of where it came from. And since I call the element used in such constructions for a past participle in all other languages I know (except Indonesian, which is irrelevant) I'll call it the same here in Greek. And I don't care if nobody else does so. Actually this collides with the traditional name for the adjectival form on -μένος, but I just see that as an adjectival derivation so I'm not going to lose sleep over that*. A propos sleep, that's my next task now. If you have any comments to the table below then I'll read them tomorrow.

* EDIT: .. but then I remembered the Greek "έχω γραμμένο", and then it is suddenly much more logical to call the -menos form a past participle. But then I don't know what to call the -ei form...

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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby Iversen » Tue Sep 03, 2019 9:53 pm

Today I have tried to make up my mind about the Bulgarian verbs, which have not only the normal Slavonic separation between perfective and non-perfective verbs (i.e. aspect), but also an aorist based on its own stem - as in Greek, which I studied yesterday. But I don't really feel that I'm ready to publish my own system. Some time ago I mentioned here that I found a system published at the site languagegulper.com more logical than the one in my petite grammaire by Jack Feuillet, but now that I have been been reading both again AND peeked into some other sites on the internet I'm not quite so sure any longer. It adds to the problems that Verbix.com, which often has been a solid source in questions of verbal forms, is curiously deficient both when it comes to Greek and to Bulgarian. But I haven't found anything totally satisfying in other sources either.

As I wrote yesterday I think you should make a table with all relevant forms (synthetic as well analytic ones) and THEN discuss what they are used for. And you should show the most important irregular verbs, including those that serve as uxiliaries, first and then proceed to the endings of the main regular verbs without losing yourself in petty details about where the stress should be and things like like. In Bulgarian I think it may be necessary to make one table for the synthetic forms based on the standard stem and another for the forms based on the aorist stem plus a third one that shows the combinations used in the analytic forms. But it has taken me most of the evening to try to piece that information together. And then there is the question of nomenclature.

As I mentioned already in the preceding message I don't like the name "perfect" (with no qualifications whatsoever) for the combination of the present of an auxiliary and the past passive participium (as in "I have done something"). Simple names should point to simple (i.e. synthetic) forms, so I would prefer to talk about the compund perfect in such a case (cfr "passé composé" in French). In the other Slavonic languages the corresponding form consists of an -l participium with or without an auxiliary verb (to be). but in Bulgarian there is potentially a choice between two flavours of icecream since you can form the l-word on the basis of either the 'normal' stem or on the one belonging to the aorist. It's in fact the latter that is used in the common compound perfect, which consists of a 'to be' verb in the present tense plus the l-thing, but it seems that the other participle also can occur - I have forgotten what the combination then is called. And to boot the auxiliary can also be dropped, and according to one source the whole thing then ends up in something called the 'referential' mode, which is apparently is used for second hand summaries, (cfr. one use of the ' Konjunktiv' in German). But other sources don't even mention even mention this possibility.

And there are lots of other murky details plus a host of competing nomenclatures in several languages to take in account, so I can't write my green sheet for Bulgarian verbs yet, sorry. Instead I have studied a fairly long text about the zoological garden in Sofia, where I have taken extra care to scrutinize and classify each and every verbal form. I'm however aware that a simple no-nonsense non-fiction text may not present the whole gamut of verbal forms in Bulgarian so much against my normal habits I may also have to have a peek at some literary texts from the internet. But not today.

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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby Iversen » Wed Sep 04, 2019 8:58 am

I have just seen some footage from Elbow Quay and Marsh harbour in the Northern Part of Bahamas. It is terrible to see what Dorian has done to this area, which I visited in 2000. This hurricane is said to have had the fastest winds ever recorded on land, but the area has had it share of hurricanes earlier, and each time everything has to be rebuilt. I saw in one of the islands a fairly large ship that still was firmly lodged in an indland slope - that's where the preceding hurricane had put it. And I have also a few days ago seen a program on TV that told about a fort down near Nassau that had been ripped apart by a hurricane in the 1700s. At least Florida didn't get the full impact of this hurricane, but it seems to have been a close call...

Languagewise I studied my Bulgarian text about the zoo in Sofia yesterday.

BU: Софийският зоопарк е създаден въз основа на частните животински колекции, създадени от новия монарх на страната, Фердинанд. Когато османското владичество в балканските страни прекрати, новите държави донесли крале от Западна Европа. В Гърция се сдоби с датски крал, но българите първо избраха германец Александър фон Батенберг, който трябваше да абдикира след рускиприятелски преврат. Тогава е избран Фердинанд от германското семейство Саксония-Кобург, което тогава управлява като княз от 1887 до 1908 г. и като цар от 1908 г. (когато страната става официално независима от турците) до 1918 г. Но в края на Първата световна война (и след поражения срещу Сърбия) той трябваше да абдикира. Умира 1948 г. в Германия. Но зоопаркът все още е жив ... ура, ура.

RU: Как ночное чтение, я использовал статью об Марсианский ровер Дискавери, который взял зимние каникулы расположен на склоне в течение четырех месяцев без движения, потому что не было достаточно света чтобы ехать.

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