Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

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Iversen
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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby Iversen » Fri Jun 16, 2017 6:28 am

LA: Medio noctis Tuzla exivi raedis meritoriis ... et iterum glossario "New College" linguae latinae gratiam ago quia mihi vocabulum dat reis recentis. In Wikipedia angilicae lingvae explicatio datur de "taxi". Pareat ut non directe ex latina venit, sed de "Taximeter" (teudisce "taxameter") + "cab(riolet"). "Cab" perditur quia gens hodernes nesciunt quid sit 'cabriolet'. In Dania dicimus "taxa". Autem Wikipedia latina "raedam meritoriam" (singulari casu) continet, sed etiam "taxiraedam" proponet qui forsitan vel melior sit quia propinquor vocabulis linguarum hodiernium.

Et cur istud in lingua latina scribo??? Quia unam lingvam paravi ante colloquium polyglotium: lingvam latinam! Cur? Quia persona una in Thessalonica tentativit me in conversationem latinam implicare, sed ego tunc non paratus eram. Potius in Bratislava promissi paratus esse.. et quid accidit? Persona ista defuit. Quam linguam in Bratislava ergo non usus sum? Latinam! Et ego etiam Harrium Potterum et Cameram Secretorum relegaveram ante Tuzlam relicta!

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Iversen
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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby Iversen » Fri Jun 16, 2017 7:39 am

My flight from Tuzla started at 6:00 and lasted about an hour or so. So I arrived far too early in Bratislava - and on a Monday where practically all museums are closed. So I first of all bought a day ticket to all public transport in B-town, then visited a ghastly noise polluted shopping center called Aupark and then continued onwards to the serene and pleasant Botanical garden, where I spent several hours looking at a plethora of plants and birds and worms and visitors ... and a slender legless reptil of sorts, about 20 cm long, which must be some kind of 'slow worm' (rotten name!), known in Denmark as "stålorm" (literally "steel worm" - also a rotten name since it definitely is a reptile and not a worm). Picture below.

Stålorm_Bratislava.jpg


From the Botanical garden I continued onwards to the Zoological garden, which isn't quite as well thought out. After the initial flat stretch it branches out in three directions. The left and the right lane imply that you walk up and up without really seeing a lot of animals, and then there are a few critters at the top. The middle lane leads to a valley of dinosaurs, which actually is the most satisfying part of the institution - it even has a small 3D cinema (if you want to scare the kids). So what is missing - apart from a few more animals? Something as simple as a clearly marked connection between the upper parts so that you don't have to backtrack to the lowlands and then scamper uphill up again.

I had chosen a centrally placed hotel for my first night in B-town because I wanted to do a few days of tourism before being immersed into the polyglot universe. Tuesday I crawled up to the top of the fortress hill where I visited the Historical museum, which among other things had a splendid exhibition about the Celts in the cellar. It is not quite clear when they arrived in Central Europe, but their first welldocumented presence was at a place called Hallstatt (in Southern Austria), and from there they spread to most of Western Europe including the British isles and Spain (see the map below, which hangs at the museum). Their ascendancy was however abruptly squashed by the Romans, who over a few hundred years conquered all their territories except Ireland and basically eradicated their culture. The conquests of Marcus Aurelius reached far into Slovakia, but it seems that a few pockets of Celts survived in nearby Galatia - but only until the turmoil caused by the Huns.

Stahovenie_Keltov.JPG

After that I visited a cluster of small musea between the river and the hill (now with a common entrance), followed by the Museum of natural history, and Wednesday I visited the museums around Hlavné Námestie, including the tiny Hummel-museum (named after one of the few internationally known composers of the town). It was around 9.50 in this area that I met a trio of LLorgians searching for bookstores as eagerly as polar bears hunting for inattentive seals - but personally I only needed one to get the few fairly standard things I needed: Czech and Slovak dictionaries and a small Slovak grammar. I used the one at the lowest level of another music polluted shopping hell known as Eurovea, which was closer than Aupark to the Economical university where the polyglot gathering took place.

And why didn't I write this in Slovak? Well...

EO: Kaj tiel komencis la poliglota parto de la vojaĝado! Mi ĉi metis min en apartamento proksime de la bushaltejo Twin City, de kie mi povis preni la buson 88 rekte al la Ekonomia Universitato, kie la okazaĵo okazis - kaj ĝi estis bonega loko kun multe da spaco en la aŭditorioj kaj senmusica Tesco en malpli ol 100 metroj distanco. Estas tiom da skribendo pri la lekcioj, ke mi prerezignas - tio estas la vojaĝo raporto - sed eble poste. Kaj kial ĉi tiu estas skribita en Esperanto? Ĉar Esperanto estas vera mondlingvo en la poliglota mondo, eble eĉ la tria malantaŭ angla kaj la loka lingvo de ajna renkontiĝo - kiu ci-tie estis la lingvo slovaka, kiun mi ne alvenis al lerni antaŭe de la okazaĵo.
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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby zenmonkey » Fri Jun 16, 2017 7:52 am

Un orvet! (FR)
I was actually thinking of trying to catch one or two to put in the garden - we have a small slug issue.
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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby Iversen » Fri Jun 16, 2017 8:57 am

FR: Essayez d'abord des canards musqués (muscovy ducks) - video ici - ou des coureurs indiens (Indian runner ducks). On dit qu'ils aiment bouffer des limaces.

Moskusænder.jpg

GE: Der letzte Teil meiner Reise geschah vornehmlich in der deutscher Sprache. Ich fuhr von Bratislava nach Wien mit der Lokalbahn - tatsächlich kann mann vom Burghügel in Bratislava sowohl Österreich als Ungarn sehen, und es is weniger als 60 Km von Bratislava nach Wien. Ich hatte in Wien nur zwei Nächte, so wegen fehlender Zeit sah ich nicht allzu vieles dort - nur die Wüsten- und Palmenhäuser und den Tiergarten im Schönbrunner Park, das Haus des Meeres, das Kunsthistorisches Museum, die Gemäldegalerie der örtlichen Akademie, das Völkerkundemuseum, das Winterpalais (mehr Mode als Historie), Steffel und letzendlich das Wiener Museum.

Nach Wien habe ich Nürnberg besucht, und dank einiger Schnäppchen der Deutschen Bahn bin ich von Wien nach Nürnberg im ICE auf 1. Klasse gefahren, und nach vier Nächte dort weiter nach Hause, gleichermaße auf 1. Klasse. In Nürnberg habe ich - wie in Bratislava - einen Apartment gemietet. Ich hätte hier erwartet, daß ich die Abende mit 'n Bissel Fernsehguckl verbringen sollte - aber nein. Die Batterien in der Fernbedienung des Fernsehers waren offenbar erschöpft, und weil das Fernsehen etwas alt war und es kein Digitalbox zu Sehen war, und auch weil viele der Nachbarn Parabolantennen hatten (was darauf hinweisen könnte, daß es kein Kabel im Hause gäbe) habe ich kein Fernsehen geguckt. Allerdings gab es eine gute Alternative:

RU: Когда я посмотрел в сваях журналов в спальне, я нашел журнал мод, опубликованный Аэрофлотом - по-русский, конечно, так что я провел вечер читать о любопытном мире моды - что для меня так иностранные, как город в России*. Это был мир блеска и пышности и трепет почти божественных дизайнеров- отчасти были мне известны, но всегда рассматриваюсь как несколько переоценены и абсолютно равнодушны. Это был мир изумрудов и алмазов, установленных в белом золоте - и худые женщины в безобразных одежде. Затем я посмотрел в некоторых других сваях, и там я нашел правильные журналы Аэрофлота, как вы читаете во время полета над территорией Сибири, и, следовательно, они являются плотными и насыщенными. И, конечно же, написаны на русском языке. Настолько вечерная развлечение была уверена.

DA * Når vi på dansk vil sige at noget er meget fremmed og lidet kendt, bruger vi udtrykket at det er så fremmed som en by i Rusland (en af de andre danskere nævnte dette under et foredrag i Bratislava)

GE: Da ich in Nürnberg stolze vier Nächte gebucht hatte, hatte ich auch Zeit ich nicht nur um den exzellenten Tiergarten und viele der Stadteigener Museen zu sehen, aber auch um Ausflüge nach Ansbach, Rothenburg und Bayreuth zu machen. Bayreuth - dahin pilgerte ich wohl um mich an die Füssen des großen Mannes zu legen? Nicht gerade so - ich besuchte das Neues Schloß und das Urzeitmuseum mit Mineralien und Paläontologische Sammlungen, aß eine Pizza Diavolo und besuchte ein Gebiet um die Rohrensee, wo es auch etliche Tiere zu sehen ist - aber nicht Villa Wahnfried, wo Richard Wagner mit Frau Cosima lebte, jetzt Museum. So sehr ich die Instrumentale Teile seiner Werke mag, ist mir aber der Typ wiederlich. Übrigens hatte ich nach meiner perambulation rundtum der Röhrensee auch nicht mehr viel Zeit, so ich bin zurück nach Nürnberg gekehrt um dort noch mehr Aeroflot-Blätter zu lesen.

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Iversen
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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby Iversen » Sun Jun 18, 2017 7:57 pm

It may be a little late, but here are a few remarks to some of the lectures I attended in Bratislava - not all, because then it would take forever, but just a sample.

Thursday: Lindsay Williams advised us not only to stop fearing errors, but actually to choose to do a certain number of errors daily. I would be somewhat more cautious: in extensive activities whose main purpose is to train your fluency rather than your accuracy it is counterproductive to be too fuzzy about errors - better spill a few beans and get on with it than apply the brakes all the time beause you try to avoid making errors. But I wouldn't choose to commit 5 or 7 or 13 errors tomorrow - I would just do 5 + 7 + 13 errors without even blinking.

Nat Dinham has studied 140 different languages for some kind of internet application. It was not quite clear to me to which level she studied them (definitely not to nativelike fluency), but just finding materials for that many languages is a major accomplishment. Btw. at the speakers' diner I was lucky to have a long discussion with her about this and other subjects (in Italian).

Finally Karl-Erik Wångstedt, Irena Dahl and Kristoffer Broholm - speakers of respectively Swedish, Norwegian and Danish - proceeded to deliberately massacre each others language. I would have liked a little more about the dialects, maybe some references to the Atlantic Nordic languages, etc. etc. but time is limited and they succeded in demonstrating that the prevailing idea that the Scandinavian languages just are variants of one common language may be somewhat compromised. The chart below wasn't shown at the event, but it shows that the Faroese natives are the true masters of understanding other Nordic languages,, followed by the Norwegians. Swedes from Stockholm are totally lost when they hear Danish - which is my best defence for using whatever Swedish I have picked up when communicating with them. Then they at least understand something.

Nordic-intercomprehension-Wikipedia.jpg

Friday: Bartosz Czekala advocated the use of intensive grammar studies as part of any serious language study. I do agree, but wouldn't have guessed that this was the mening of the words "deep learning" - such terms usually are associated with weird philosophical-psychological-religious speacualtions, but this lecture was a thoroughly sober affair.

Lýdia Máchova again explained how you can make happy successful language learners, and Angelo DeLeo gave an overview over the references used by speakers of languages X to describe something incomprehensible - usually language Y.

Steven Kaufmann told about the number of words you need to learn, but it was problematic that he used the counting criterion of his LingQ system, namely word forms - and that criterion evidently makes the numbers explode for heavily inflected languages.

Saturday: A day with some lectures about languages and others in anything but English - like an introduction to Irish and something about catalan and an introduction to pragmatics in Spanish, given by S.D. Muñoz. The theme of this last lecture was the extralinguistic information that helps us to understand a communication. I had actually expected something slightly different, since pragmatics in Anglosaxon language philosophy has tended towards research in ways to use language to achieve certain purposes.

Finally a tale about the excentric German language genius Krebs, who according to one calculation learned to speak 68 languages - as for Mandarin to such a level that the real ruler of China at the time, the widower empress Cixi, enjoyed having one-to-one conversations with him - rather uncommon for a Westernese 'longnose'. He also knew the Manchu language: almost extinct today, but the original language spoken of the ancestors to the imperial Manchu dynasty. But poor Krebs remained at the bottom of the administrative hierarchy because he was a cantankerous weirdo who couldn't get along with anybody. Today we would probably have diagnosed him as an extremely gifted aspie.

Sunday: The day where I delivered my own speech about the (pre)history of the Germanic languages. I think it went OK, but I regret that I didn't do it in German. Before that I listened to Dimitris Polychronopoulos' funny lecture about "being funny in a foreign language" (where I must admit that I didn't understand the examples in Chinese), and after lunch I heard heard him and Cesco Reale serve weird features from a number of languages - and Danish phonology was of course mentioned. I used the opportunity to repeat a consonant-less Jutish sentence which I first quoted at the first polyglot gathering in Berlin: A Æ Å Ø Æ I Æ Å. Æ A (I am on the island in the rivulet, am I). And then the whole thing finished with a common meeting, where we beat the Slovak record for most languages spoken under one roof at one event. My humble contribution was a few sentences in Low German - somebody else grabbed Danish.
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Iversen
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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby Iversen » Tue Jun 20, 2017 10:09 pm

I have worked with several of my slightly rusty languages today - including Greek, Russian and Indonesian, amd of course also watched TV. Speaking about TV ...

IN: Hari ini saya membaca (dan menyalin) teks tentang televisi berlangganan. Aku memiliki televisi kabel, tetapi tidak ingin membayar untuk pertunjukan dan film satu per satu, dan servis televisi yang berlangganan sebagian besar menawarkan film fiksi - aku lebih baik suka non fiksi. Sayangnya produsen-produsen televisi kolot adalah dungu - atau menganggap bahwa pelanggan dungu! Dapat dimenganggapkan bahwa menampilkan iklan untuk danai perusahaan, namun tidak bisa tahan bahwa mereka menampilkan iklan yang sama berulang-ulang ribu juta waktu per hari. Mungkin berpikir bahwa penonton-penonton menyerah oleh siksaan dan pembelian barang-barang mereka? Mungkin itu adalah benar? mungkin ada orang yang membeli limbah sampai setelah sepuluh iklan, tetapi tidak setelah sembilan iklan?

Y18.JPG

GR: Το ελληνικό κείμενο αναφέρεται σε σιδηροδρομικά ταξίδια, και αυτό είναι ένα θέμα που με ενδιαφέρει. Αλλά υπάρχει και κάτι άλλο να πω για την Ελλάδα: είδα δύο συναυλίες σε ελληνικά νησιά σήμερα στο Arte - στα γερμανικά πάνω στα ελληνικά. Αυτή η γερμανική συνήθεια είναι ενοχλητικό, αλλά οι εκπομπές ήταν κατά τα άλλα καλές και συστηματικές. Στην πρώτη, εξετάσαμε τα Δωδεκάνησα, και από την άλλη έχουμε μάθει για τα Ιόνια Νησιά. Εχω επισκεφθεί κάποια από τα νησιά (την Ρόδο και την Κέρκυρα), αλλά σχεδόν αισθάνονται σαν πετούν προς τα κάτω για να δείτε λίγο περισσότερο.
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Iversen
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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby Iversen » Fri Jun 23, 2017 12:03 pm

My main foreign language today has been Romanian. I have reread several articles from http://www.descopera.ro, which I printed out as a bilingual collection several years ago, but to get something new too I have collected a new set of articles from the same source - but this time I have dropped the translation since it isn't necessary with this kind of materials. Each article from descopera takes up from ½ to around 1½ A4 page, which means that it has a suitable length for intensive study with copying, subsequent production of word lists and all that stuff. Today I just read the first collection and some of the articles which I didn't print out. One irritating feature of the homepage is a popup window which urges me to do something with somebody called Mariah Carey. The only thing I want to do concerning mrs Carey is to click the tiny red cross that makes her disappear, but she pops up again like a cork in a bucket of water - sometimes several times within one article. I should probably install a popup killer to keep her away.

RO: Unul dintre articole 'noi' a referit la pericolele de a mânca cartofi prăjiți - și nu numai cartofii prăjiți. Avertizarea se aplică tuturor produselor alimentare cu amidon și hidrați de carbon care sunt încălziți la mai mult de 120 de grade. Este de fapt Institutul National alimentar din Danemarca, care a studiat rolul de amidon și a găsit aceste consecințe (cum de exemplu un risc crescut de cancer) - deși este menționat ce există studii anterioare care nu au dat rezultate clare. Voi, cu toate acestea, eu am intenția de a continua să mănânc cartofilor prăjiți. Când eu îi fac acasă, eu încălzec mai întâi cartofilor prăjiți înghețăți la al meu microunde, și apoi îi încălzec în cuptor la 200 de grade cu ventilator - astfel pot să evita fierberea în ulei. Nu vor fi buni la o temperatură mai scăzută.

Unele dintre noile articole se ocupă de fuziunea nucleară, dar vorbim in acest caz despre temperaturi ceva mai ridicate...

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Iversen
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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby Iversen » Sat Jun 24, 2017 7:27 am

FR: Dans le 'vieux' bouquin d'articles tirés de descopera.ro (cfr. le message précédent) il se trouvé un qui qui ne cesse de me faire refléchir sur la nature de l'univers: "Un experiment de fizică cuantică a confirmat o teorie dificil de explicat: Realitatea nu există până nu o măsurăm. Dans lequel on peut lire que

”Arată că măsurătorile sunt totul. La nivel cuantic, realitatea nu există dacă nu te uiţi la ea”, a explicat fizicianul Andrew Truscott, coordonatorul studiului.
(il montre que les messurages sont tout. Sur le niveau quantique, la réalité existe seulement si vous ne l'oublie pas", a explique le physicien Andrew Truscott, le coordinateur de l'étude)

Je ne suis pas d'accord - mais peut-être c'est moi qui a tort.

Un équipe australien a amélioré une expérience proposée par John Wheeler en 1978. Ils ont attrapé un ensemble d'atomes d'hélium dans un condensé Bose-Einstein et enlevé tous jusqu'à ce qu'il ne restât qu-un seul. Cet atome a été conduit attravers deux 'grilles' par des rayons laser. Dans la théorie quantique la lumière fonctionne comme une onde de probabilité jusqu'à ce qu'on le mesure - alors l'onde s'écroule et devient une particule ayant un emplacement et une vitesse (en prenant en compte la formule d'incertitude d'Heisenberg qui interndit qu'on sache les deux en même temps avec une précision arbitraire - mais tout de même une particule). Ce qu'on voit dans expériment ce que la présence ou non d'une seconde grille affecte le comportement de l'onde de probabilité déjà au niveau de la première grille. Et la conclusion est que la monde n'existe à moins qu'on le mesure, et le mesurage lui-même est déterminant pour le résultat.

Ceci resemble un expériment repliqué par les 'Mythbusters'. On a trois portes, et un sujet de test doit deviner derrière laquelle il se trouve quelque chose (j'ai oublié de quoi il s'agit, mais ce n'a aucune importance). Avant ouvrir la porte choisie on informe la personne que l'objet ne se trouve pas derrière une des autres porte et appèle à la personne de reconsidérer son choix - mais la plupart des personnes retient le choix initial. Ce qui est faux, puisque selon le théorème de Bayes la nouvelle information a changé les probabilités de manière qu'il serait mieux de changer d'avis. Et encore la porte choisie premièrement n'a pas été ouverte, mais déjà il est devenue moins probable que c'est celle-ci qui soit la vraie porte.

Je ne crois pas pas que le mesurage change l'objet de mesurage en soi (et donc, en principe, tout l'univers). C'est plutôt l'aspect du monde comme réseau de probabilités vu par l'expérimentateur qui va changer si on obtient plus d'information qu'avant. L'onde de probabilité en soi n'écroule pas, mais nous savons que l'expérience a obtenu un résultat de test qui se présente comme une particule déterminée. En obtenant le résultat du mesurage l'observateur s'est placé lui-même dans un seul de tous le mondes possibles, et cela change les évalutions des diverses possibilités qu'on aurait pu avoir avant d'obtenir l'information supplémentaire. Et les autres possibilités se sont évanouies sans laisser des traces dans le monde où se trouve notre experimentateur dès maintenant. Est-ce qu'elles existent alors en quelques autres univers? Peut-être, et la possibilité de chaque univers dependrait alors de la probabilité accordée à cet univers par l'onde de probabilité. Mais est-ce que ces univers existent vraiment? Bah, ça depend de notre définition de "exister". En tout cas, ils n'existent pas dans l'univers de notre expérimentateur. Ou -trice, si vous voulez...

Et pourquoi écrire ceci en français plutôt qu'en anglais ou roumain? Et bien, pour m'amuser et pour ne pas toujours écrire en anglais.

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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby Jar-Ptitsa » Tue Jun 27, 2017 1:06 am

I'm very tired now but this week I'll read some pages of your log. I've missed about 3 months I think. and I promised ages ago that I'd make some more recordings of when I play the violin. Have you been to Yemen? I'v heard that it's a wondrful country, although now it's got a lot of serious problems with the war.
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Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=1027
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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby Iversen » Wed Jun 28, 2017 6:31 am

Yemen? I'm not going to Yemen right now. They have a raging civil war with serious interference from Saudi Arabia, and even before the war flared up there was a serious risk of being kidnapped - especially around Sanaa, which is the only place in the country I really would like to see as a tourist. There are places which have become less dangerous, like Colombia and Algeria, but Yemen is going the wrong way. Better stay away.

I'm going to the Netherlands and to the Guyanas later this year - and maybe also to Reykjavik to attend the polyglot conference there - but only if I can find a way to do it without being ruined financially - , and I have just been on a three week excursion to Bosnia plus Slovakia-Austria-Germany, so my travelling activity has not slowed down. But Yemen? No way. Quite apart from the risks involved in going there it would mean that I would have to acquire a formal visum to the States in case I did invest in a trip to Iceland and chose to continue to for instance Boston.

This weekend I have been on a somewhat more limited trip to my mother's place, where I have done quite a lot of gardening, some cooking (thin Danish-style pancakes, homemade pizza and french fries à la moi-même) and not a lot of language learning. Maybe the temporary absence of my ecology and health minded sister has had some influence on our menu choices, but actually the aforementioned items can be made in ways that are less life-threatening than the commercial variants. I have already written in the Romanian text above how to make French fries: I take them frozen from the bag I bought in the supermarket, but then I DON'T throw them into boiling oil - instead I give them 6-7 minutes in the micro and then some time in the oven with the ventilator on until they have got a soft core and a crisp outer shell. And one thing more: In Denmark they are always served with remoulade, NOT ketchup, mayonnaise or other irrelevant semifluids. And they are not soggy and half raw as in Britain - I could say many nice things about the Brits, but they don't have a clue about how to make edible French fries! The Belgians can make good fries, but spoil the experience by soaking them in mayonnaise - like the Germans do with their "Pommes" when they don't drown them in ketchup.

Actually I did read some pages in one language related book, namely the "El Català i el Castillà comparats" which I recently mentioned in another thread.

CA: Una de les millors coses d'aquest llibre és que se-l ha escrit en català, de manera que no només es pot aprendre les diferències fonamentals entre els dos idiomes, però també es pot pot treure la pols del seu català. Algunes de les diferències són d'un tipus que es podria molt fàcilment passar per alt si vosté no tenia una mica ajuda per a asenyalar els fenòmens rellevants. Per exemple el català utilitza l'indicatiu en molts casos ón el castellá usa una forma de conjuntiu.

De vegades em pregunto, però, de la veritat de un comunicat en el llibre. Per tant, el llibre diu que s'ha d'incloure sempre una destinació quan s'utilitza el verb "portar" en castellà - peró es molt facil trobar eixembles com (SP) "Una persona que lleva una maleta y recorre un pasillo recto de 25 m, calcula el trabajo que realiza si empuja la maleta con una fuerza de 15 n, arrastrandole por el suelo."

I de vegades el text mateix em sorprèn: "Amb els primers adjectius d'aquesta llista no és fàcil que ningú s'hi equivoqui. Ningú no es diu 'una dona fort' (...)" (p.48). Aqui es el primer "ningú" que em sorprèn. El sentit es clarament "Amb els primers adjectius d'aquesta llista no és fàcil equivoquar-se", i potser es podria haver esperat "alguém" en lloc de "ningu". Però tot això és detall. Ara sóc a casa, i a part que encara tinc visites de artesans en la meva humil morada (on s'ha temporalment interromput el drenatge des del meu vàter), i de nou puc passar el meu temps en els estudis de llengua en lloc de estudiar les males herbes i tanques salvatges.

OC: Ieu legiguèri lo fil de la lenga occitana. Me plai enòrmament que per aquelas sòrtas ai alavetz diccionaris en format pdf de francés a occitan e en lo sens invertit.

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