Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

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Iversen
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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby Iversen » Sun Feb 11, 2018 4:56 pm

Let's get music over with I thought that one opus from those few I haven't yet uploaded wasn't totally worthless boring rot from the last sad phase just before I stopped composing around 1998. I was wrong, and now I'm rewriting the supposed exception (Tempora mutantur, nos et mutamur in illis). But I have nevertheless had time to study a few texts and watch TV programmes about some comment inviting topics. I'm watching the quiz "Pointless" in this moment, and by a weird coincidence the question posed right now concerns the most spoken native languages. Bengali would be a pointless answer, i.e. nobody in the background panel knew that this language is one of the most spoken native languages on this planet, but the situation wasn't as dire as I had expected. Some two thirds knew that Chinese was among the most spoken ones, and 97 % surmised that English might be too. Some 11% (or was it 13%?) knew that Portuguese also is found on the list, which is more than I had expected.

EO: Mi jam kuniĝis al la kunveno en Bratislava, sed nun ricevis retpoŝton kun limdato por la submetiĝo de programproponoj. Mi sugestis prelegon en francoj pri la lingva geografio de Eŭropo, kiu plenumas deziron de la organizantoj: pli prelegoj en ne-anglo. Fakte, estos kvar kolonoj de la venonta evento: anglaj paroladoj, paroladoj en aliaj lingvoj, lingvaj laborejoj kaj - kiel renovigo - ne-lingva laborejoj en diversaj lingvoj. Do se iu volas laborejon pri ŝako en norvega (aŭ miksaĵo de norvega kaj rusa), tiam ĉi tio povus esti tia ŝanco.

LA: Hodie programma televisificum anglicae linguae vidi quae arguebat legionem IX romanorum in Insulae Britannicae Maiori exterminata esse gratias ago tribuis septentrionalibus (alie dictu: scotis veteris). Dixerunt opinionem maioritatis archeologicorum esse legionem alicubi transferta esse, sed nemo locum indicare potebat, et ergo istud modo unum consilium inter diversa est. Verosimiliter est quod in loco distructa sit (quam legiones Varri in Silvae Teutoburgensae fere C anni antes), et quod romani cladem occultaverunt ut alibus non inspiratio daturus esse similiter insurgere contra barbaros armatos romanos - melius esse factum publice non agnoscere et statim murum aedificare, id quod accidit circa IX anni post ultimam mentionem legionis amissae.

GR: Έχω μελετήσει επίσης ένα κείμενο σχετικά με τον εργαστηριακό εξοπλισμό στα ελληνικά. Και, φυσικά, αυτό είχε ως αποτέλεσμα μερικές νέες λέξεις. Και δεν είναι τόσο βαρετό όσο φαίνεται. Η λέξη "γυάλινος" φυσικά σημαίνει "made of glass", και "γυάλα" ένα μπολ ή άλλο αντικείμενο από γυαλί. Αλλά "γυαλίζω" έχει δύο σημασίες: 1) να λάμψει ή να λάμψει, 2) να γυαλίσει ή λουστράφω... αλλά το λεξικό μου ελληνικά-δανικά ισχυρίζεται ότι το "γυαλίζω" κατά προτίμηση χρησιμοποιείται για τη ασημικά. Εάν πρέπει να είναι γυαλιστερό το γυαλί, χρησιμοποιήστε την λέξη "καθαρίζω" (που μάλλον φαίνεται να σημαίνει "κάνω καθαρός").

Kunst015.JPG

Actually the painting above shows king Canute the Great taking his famous footbath, but it also shows a chess board - and as you may have noticed I did mention chess in this message so it is not irrelevant to show it here.
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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby Iversen » Wed Feb 14, 2018 7:41 pm

While looking for musicfree TV programs around noon today I checked the Danish news channel (our counterpart to CNN, and not much better), and it turned out that it only had one event on the program today, namely the death of the husband of our queen, known as "Prins Henrik", but born Henri Marie Jean André de Laborde de Monpezat" (somewhat harder to pronounce, but infinitely more euphoneous to my ears). The TV people spoke to people who had met him in different situations, and they all agreed that he was an extraordinarily pleasant and down-to-earth, intelligent and artistically gifted person. He was born in France, but grew up in (then) French Indochina, and there he became fluent in Vietnamese and Mandarin Chinese (in addition to his native French, English and Spanish).

When he met our future queen in London he was well underway to become a professional diplomat, but alas, maybe precisely because he knew several languages already, he apparently underestimated the difficulties involved in learning to speak Danish, and our local gossip magazines couldn't resist to make fun of him because of his accent. Later on he complained that his title "prinsgemal" (an analogue to the English 'prince consort') wasn't logical since he was married to a lady who in the meantime had become a queen, so if his title couldn't be 'king' then 'king consort' would be a better solution - at least for the time being. Again the gossip journalists and 'court experts' attacked him visiously for even raising the question, but of course he is right: if we can have a ruling queen, then it shouldn't be too hard to imagine also have a non-ruling king, and if that's too hard to take in one step then "king consort" might be a reasonable choice. But no, he stayed a 'prince-something' until the end of his life. Maybe this also made him take the decision that he refused to be buried in Roskilde Cathedral, where we traditionally bury our dead kings and queens. No, he wanted to be cremated and have half the ashes spread at sea (he was in earlier times a keen yachtsman) and the other half buried in a private garden at the castle Fredensborg.

By the way, twice during the 1700s the rulers of the (then) semi-independent principality of Béarn (now a French département) refused to accept the nobility status of the title "Comte de Monpezat" since it didn't refer to a physical fief - and consequently the title was included in a book called "Encyclopédie de la fausse noblesse et de la noblesse d'apparence" (Paris, Sedopols, 1976–79) by a man called Dioudonnat. At least this problem has been solved since persons who for diverse reasons leave the Danish royal house from now on will get the title "de Monpezat" as a Danish title. Until now such people became counts or countesses 'of Rosenborg' (a quaint little castle in the centre of Copenhagen, which now has become a museum).

By the way (too): this week is "vinterferie" in Denmark, i.e. "winter holiday". But not in a generic way: this is a specific week where the teachers of our schools get a well-deserved week off to rest and restitute after several exhausting weeks in the company of the notorously noisy and unruly school kids. The result is of course also that the kids get a week off where they can roam the streets and/or harass their parents, but the museums try to alleviate this situation by inviting the kids to participate in sundry pedagogical activities. In spite of the presence of these youngsters I have visited a couple of museums this week, including a maritime museum established and kept running against all odds by a group of unpaid volunteers. One of the things they've in their collection is a large model of the British oldtimer Cutty Sark, which can be seen in Greenwich at the outskirts of London. Although when I visited the place the interior was still off limits because they hadn't finished repairing the ship after a fire caused by a previous repair squad (!). But how did the ship get its name? According to one of the volunteers it was taken from a poem by no less than Robert Burns, the long and winding "Tam and the Shanter".

SCO: This here is the passage whaurin the braw bard o Scotland refers tae a 'cutty sark':

But Tam kent what was what fu' brawlie:
There was ae winsome wench and waulie
That night enlisted in the core,
Lang after ken'd on Carrick shore;
(For mony a beast to dead she shot,
And perish'd mony a bonie boat,
And shook baith meikle corn and bear,
And kept the country-side in fear);
Her cutty sark, o' Paisley harn,
That while a lassie she had worn,
In longitude tho' sorely scanty,
It was her best, and she was vauntie.
Ah! little ken'd thy reverend grannie,
That sark she coft for her wee Nannie,
Wi twa pund Scots ('twas a' her riches),
Wad ever grac'd a dance of witches!

So mister Tam (a person wha betimes micht tend nat tae refuse a wee sip of John Barleycorn) had once mair succombed tae his eternal greenins and gotten himself into problems - as is the habit of such drouthies. He had been dovering at a green meidae while his trusty steed munched gress near aboots. When he waukent up he saw a wheen o awfullie bonnie ladies, but aye, these weren't ordinari weemen, but nochtelt warlocks and witches dancing tae the musicke o hornpipes, jigs, strathspeys, reels and the like. Ah dunnoe whare the musicke came frae, but Rabbie Burns insists that there wis musicke, and he shoud know since he wrote the poem. The fairest o the fairest o the fairies (or witches) wuir a very skimpy dress, but again: Burns knows that the reason wis that her grammaw or something auld lang syne had given the lady a piece of cleithin tae wear when she was still a wee little thing, and now she still wis runnin bare-assed aboot in the same peetie brattie awbesit she'd become seevral times heicher. Burns even suggested that the ladies had the bad habit o luring seamen near the shore tae get a bettter sicht ... "and perish'd mony a bonie boat", as he writes. But mister Tam took the sensible deceesion tae git awa off while he still coud and he lowped unto his horse and gang tae the bent wi the witches trailing him. And canny Tam knew a gauk: if ye cross runnin water (and the water goblin don't catch and eat ya) then the witches cannae cross. And shuirly, he got awa and only the super fair fairy witch did catch the tail o the horse. So as the museum man said, whiniver the ship Cutty Sark entered the harbour the sailors woud give the figure head of the ship a dod o tufted raip in the hand and make a dae tae the gullible fowk on land that they'd just got awa frae a wanweird wairse than deith, and this wis the proif.

F1746b03_CuttySark.JPG
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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby Iversen » Fri Feb 16, 2018 10:23 pm

I have spent some time om writing music the last couple of days, but also on planning a trip to England - it must be the right moment for a visit there now that the £ has fallen so much in value against the Danish Crown (which follows the € within a narrow fixed band). I have my eyes fixed on a Britrailcard which can be bought for a series of consecutive days or for a fixed number of days within in a month. Unfortunately everything I have read in preparation for this project (including timetables and homepages for zoos and other sights) is in English, and it has taken a lot of time to decide on a realistic travel plan.

The Serbian grammar and some printouts in Russian are still on the chair that functions as my night table, but there is not really anything new to say about those things - except that I will use them soon.
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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby eido » Fri Feb 16, 2018 11:33 pm

Is that Scots in that post above? It seems like a cool language. I should look for it read aloud. I bet it sounds bomb. You sure are a multitalented guy, Iversen. I'll be following this log with interest.
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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby Iversen » Sat Feb 17, 2018 10:52 am

SCO: It is in fact me myntin tae write in reel Scots and not the kind o Sassenach wi an accent which the comedians fra Scotland note tae use tae get airtime on Sassenach (English) standup shows. Whan ah started oot learning Scots I had the vyce o Billy Connolly ringin in me ears, but the nou ah hear mine ain sel blabberin. Onywey, : ah actually did a video masselie a long time ago whare ah read a travelogue alood which ah had screed in Scots for fun after a wee visit yonder - but ah dinnae do many more videos since that one acause I think those ah did are meeserable and ah hate watchin them. Mebbe I shoud remove them, but that woud amoont tae admittin defeat.

Whaniver I scree in (monkey) Scots ah chack me words wi the fine Scots online dictionar. Ah coud compone a wee scree by mineself withoot looking onything up, but then it woud be muckle mair dreich an borin. Tae the maist pairt ah hae git me vocabuleerie frae the online dictionar acause whiniver ah look onything up it gives me a lot o ither wirds an expressions whit ah dinnae ask for. Like whan ah looked up the wird "defeat" an fund not only "defeat", but aw "gab":

defeat [də'fit, də'fet]
v. To defeat.
pp. defeat
gab [gab, gʌb]
n. The mouth, the palate, taste. A smack in the mouth. Talk, speech, conversation, manner of speech. Tttle-tattle, impudent chatter.
v. To speak, talk, to chatter.
pt. pp. gabbit adj. Mouthed. col. Beaten, drunk or under the influence of drugs. n. A gobbet, a morsel, mouthful.

gabbin ['gabɪn, 'gʌbɪn]
n. A smack in the mouth, a defeat. Chatter.


Houbeit did "gab" enter the threap? And whence do I knoo the wird "threap"? Well, acause ah looked up "discussion", and the dictionar telled me some mair whit ah can use later. That's also whit a guid teacher shoud dae.

Kunst023.jpg

IT: In questo momento sto non solo guardando, ma anche ascoltando un programma su RAI sulla pasta. Devo sollineare che anche sto ascoltando perché in questo momento è più normale per me di chiudere la mascella del mio apparecchio di televisione per evitare la maledetta musica - ma questa volta gli italiani hanno fatto un programma tanto informativo quanto supportabile (perche la musica è piano piano e per eccezione non veramente abominevole). Ho appreso molte cose importante, come per esempio che esiste pasta non solo fatta di riso o farina ma anche di mais, e che non ci sia nessun pericolo particolare per la salute nella pasta ordinaria di farina - a meno che avete determinate malattie specifiche che fanno che non potete tollerare il glutine. E poi non c'è solo la pasta da evitare, ma anche il pane integrale. Ultime notizie: non parlano più di pasta ma di una specie di liquore "buccia de arancio" (ahem, infatti i frutti sono più simili ai limoni). Mi dispiace per la povera signora che si ha metto nella pioggia in una piantagione di limoni per ci parlare in italiano). Forse hanno fatto un pareggio e quelli che hanno vinto adesso stanno con tempo asciutto nel studio .

EN: By the way, I tried to find my old contributions in Scots with the help of Google, and somehow it also found a discussion about a panel discussion from one of the polyglot gatherings in Berlin where I said that I wouldn't learn languages with an opaque orthography because I then wouldn't know how to pronounce them. I mentioned Chinese and Arabic as examples of this, and apparently that irritated some of the commentators who thought that I hated all non-Roman scripts. Quote:

ME: Chinese or Arabic, for example, I wouldn’t learn because the pronunciation isn’t evident from the writing.
Somebody's comment: How can you learn so many languages and still be so stupid? "If it's not in a Latin script, why even bother?"


Luckily others had noticed that I have languages like Greek and Russian on my study program, so obviously I don't abstain from learning languages with other alphabets. But I do see the myriad of tiny Chinese symbols as a good reason not to learn languages based on non-alphabetical systems. As for Arabic I've read that the all vowels are marked in the Quran, but not in ordinary texts, like those on the internet or newspapers. In this way the native writers use their alphabet as an "abjad", which is the name for a alphabetic system without vowels. And apart from my bias towards learning mostly European languages that characteristic of the writing system would make it almost obligatory to learn the spoken language first, probably with the help of a teacher. And that's not how I do things. But what then about languages with a silly orthography, like English? Well, same argument, but a twist: I did learn that language mostly through the ears, and then I learnt to spell it later.

There are elements in other writing systems (or rather missing elements) which makes it more difficult to learn how to pronounce them - like the lack of accent signs in the Cyrillic alphabets, including the one of Russian (apart from "ë", which I have chosen not use when no other accents are indicated). Luckily there are accent signs in my dictionaries, and I once bought a Russian history book with all the accents marked, so maybe I still make silly errors, but I have methods to deal with that type of writing systems.

SW: Och just nå lyssnar jag til quizzen "Vem vet mest?" på svensk STV2, och jag vet faktisk mycket .. men visste inte att svenskarne plocker gäss när dom har något problem med någon annan person - vi danskare "har en høne at plukke" med honom eller henna.

Kunst092_bird.jpg
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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby tarvos » Sat Feb 17, 2018 10:11 pm

In het Nederlands: een appeltje met iemand te schillen hebben. ???
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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby Systematiker » Sun Feb 18, 2018 12:56 am

Die Deutschen haben mit jemandem ein Hühnchen zu rupfen, but here in the States I’d just have a bone to pick with someone.
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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby Iversen » Sun Feb 18, 2018 1:20 am

Maybe somebody ate the poultry and just left the bones to you?
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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby Iversen » Wed Feb 21, 2018 12:38 am

EO: Mi ricevis la Esperantan revuon la pasintsemajne kaj ĝin nun legis tute. Estas (kompreneble) artikolo pri la venonta kongreso en Lisbono, sed strange ili forgesas skribi KIE en la urbo la kongreso okazos. Mi bezonis la informon por rezervi hotelan ĉambron kaj do bezonis tin serĉante la interreto - strange, povas esti ie en la oficiala retejo, sed en tiu kazo la informo estas zorgeme kaŝita!

EN: I am still spending time on composition, and now the culprit is a triosonate for flute, viola and harpsichord. The old version from 1997 or so was a trio for two violins and piano, but I didn't like it, and when I replaced the piano with a harpsichord (and rewrote the lot in the process) I decided also to change the genre designation. The funny thing about the baroque trio sonatas is that they normally were played by not three, but FOUR musicians - the reason being that the cembalo part actually was a basso continuo part where the bass line was doubled by a viola da gamba or some other instrument (even wind instruments have been used). And the right hand was not written out in detail, but left to the discretion of the player with some guidance in the form of chord symbols ("becifring" in Danish). I do not follow that totally outdated tradition, but write the notes which I would want the harpsichord player to play. And the left hand is not designed for being played on a supplement bass instrument. After all, I live in the 21. century and don't wear a wig.

GER: Gestern habe ich eine Fernsehsendung gesehen, wo es die Rede von "Supermenschen" war. Die Sendung wurde in Deutschland produziert (aber gezeigt auf DR3 in Dänemark ... selbstverständlich auf Deutsch!) und es gab unter anderem eine Rubrik mit den Brüder Youlden, die zusammen so etwa 30 Sprachen sprechen können. Sie wurden mit einem einfachen und einem harten Test getestet, nämlich in einer Woche einer Sprache soweit zu lernen, daß sie darin mit die Einheimischen kommunizieren könnten und dazu noch hohe Noten von drei Spezialisten erreichteten. Als der einfache Test diente Plattdüütsch zu lernen (was für Deutschsprecher relativ einfach sein sollte), und für den schwierigeren Test mußten sie Maltesisch lernen. Und meiner Meinung nach haben sie das Ziel in beiden Fällen erreicht, aber ich kann natürlich nicht beurteilen, wie tief ihr Wissen reicht - insbesondere nicht in Bezug auf Maltesisch. Und mein eigenes Platt wird almählich auch ein wenig rostig ...

SW: Jag har också sett ett svenskt program om slottet Drottningholm, som ligger utanför Stockholm. En del av det är bebodd av den svenska kungafamiljen, men andra delar kan besökas av gäster. Och jag har varit där en gång, men bilden nedan är fotograferat från skärmen.

FR: Cela me rappelle un programme de télévision qui traitait de la cour du 'roi soleil' Louis XIV. Et c'était terrifiant d'entendre parler des conditions d'hygiène grotesques que l'on devait supporter à cette période. Apparemment, le roi lui-même a seulement pris un bain trois fois dans toute sa longue vie - il croyait que c'était malsain. Malsain haha...alors, les gentilhommes et -dames ont chié et pissé dans les pots de nuit apportés par des serveurs ou tout bonnement sur le plancher pendant qu'ils conversaient entre eux ou regardait le roi.

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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby reineke » Wed Feb 21, 2018 5:10 am

Iversen wrote:SCO: It is in fact me myntin tae write in reel Scots and not the kind o Sassenach wi an accent which the comedians fra Scotland.. .

EN: By the way, I tried to find my old contributions in Scots with the help of Google, and somehow it also found a discussion about a panel discussion from one of the polyglot gatherings in Berlin where I said that I wouldn't learn languages with an opaque orthography because I then wouldn't know how to pronounce them. I mentioned Chinese and Arabic as examples of this, and apparently that irritated some of the commentators who thought that I hated all non-Roman scripts. Quote:

ME: Chinese or Arabic, for example, I wouldn’t learn because the pronunciation isn’t evident from the writing.
Somebody's comment: How can you learn so many languages and still be so stupid? "If it's not in a Latin script, why even bother?"


Luckily others had noticed that I have languages like Greek and Russian on my study program, so obviously I don't abstain from learning languages with other alphabets. But I do see the myriad of tiny Chinese symbols as a good reason not to learn languages based on non-alphabetical systems. As for Arabic I've read that the all vowels are marked in the Quran, but not in ordinary texts, like those on the internet or newspapers. In this way the native writers use their alphabet as an "abjad", which is the name for a alphabetic system without vowels. And apart from my bias towards learning mostly European languages that characteristic of the writing system would make it almost obligatory to learn the spoken language first, probably with the help of a teacher. And that's not how I do things. But what then about languages with a silly orthography, like English? Well, same argument, but a twist: I did learn that language mostly through the ears, and then I learnt to spell it later.

There are elements in other writing systems (or rather missing elements) which makes it more difficult to learn how to pronounce them - like the lack of accent signs in the Cyrillic alphabets, including the one of Russian (apart from "ë", which I have chosen not use when no other accents are indicated). Luckily there are accent signs in my dictionaries, and I once bought a Russian history book with all the accents marked, so maybe I still make silly errors, but I have methods to deal with that type of writing systems.

SW: Och just nå lyssnar jag til quizzen "Vem vet mest?" på svensk STV2, och jag vet faktisk mycket .. men visste inte att svenskarne plocker gäss när dom har något problem med någon annan person - vi danskare "har en høne at plukke" med honom eller henna.

Kunst092_bird.jpg


Some not so friendly comments in that thread
I see that Sprachprofi is actively commenting and defending the polyglottery cause. I am not sure this is the best way to go about it:

"The most "celebrated" polyglot who goes for breadth is Moses McCormick, laoshu on Youtube. He can have very basic conversations in 60 languages or more, including a lot of non-European ones. He's an exception among polyglots and he doesn't get asked for his advice nearly as often as those who go for depth.

I don't think someone who knows 1 language 100% (even Japanese) is news-worthy though. That would mean every single professional translator would get celebrated, maybe 1000 people in every city rather than one person per country or so. Another exception is Khatsumoto - he is celebrated because he didn't just master Japanese, he supposedly did so in only 18 months."

"Number of native speakers..." I feel like reading the old forum.

Some readers may find some of Sprachprofi's other comments more interesting:

"3x1 [hours per week] is imho the absolute minimum to make any progress at all.

Once you're B2, you should stop counting hours and just enjoy the language, read books, watch movies, talk a lot - no amount of study can force C1/C2. If you don't reach it automatically from the way you use the language in real life, you probably don't have need for that high level. Languages adapt to the level you need them to be (for what you're doing with them over a long period of time), for the better or the worse."

"The more languages you learn, the more likely that you won't need them all at C1/C2."

I am not entirely convinced that you can do an FSI-like crash course of 40 hours per week (25 in classroom and 15 outside) dedicated to a single language (over an extended period of time) without losing some efficiency over slower approaches.

The FSI numbers assume that you don't know any related languages. If I study Dutch after German, there is no way it would take me anywhere near 600 hours. In fact, it took me only 100.

I have been meticulously keeping track of how many hours I spend on which languages ever since 2009 (wish I had done so earlier) and the numbers just don't bear out. I have done a total of 137 hours of Indonesian so far, including some class time even, the FSI says I'll need 900 hours to reach C1/C2, but I'm already almost at B2 now.

So let me amend my statement: you CAN become fluent in a language by putting in 3 hours a week, as long as those are quality hours (self-study or with a 1-on-1 tutor) or you already speak another foreign language."

I suppose Reddit is the way to go. Thankfully I don't care for the new social media platforms.
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