Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

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Iversen
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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby Iversen » Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:20 pm

Once again I have spent a weekend at my mother's place, and as usual this has limited my language studies to a minimum - though not to an absolut zero. I did bring along an old bilingual printout in Greek (see below), and I did make Russian wordlists (approx. 300 words), and of course I did watch television in Danish, Norwegian, Swedish, German and English - but by far the most important thing I made this weekend was to adorn her living room with 312 Christmas hearts. My sister and I produced the first wawe of hearts around 2002-03 and a second wawe about five years later. If you want to know more about this utterly Danish tradition then you can check out my message pertaining to this issue from 2015 (including instructions in making the simplest kind of heart with 4x4 squares). If you just want to see how far paper folding madness can drive people then please refer to the image below.

The funny thing is that I actually don't like Christmas - and certainly not when some unscrupulous biziness people start out with Christmas trees and snow and Father Christmas and ugly Christmas songs and all that nauseating stuff from mid October. It is bad enough to fill one month (December) with Christmassy pollution, but we'll soon have to start thinking about next year's Christmas already before new years day. I also find it idiotic to force grown-ups to exchange presents. I can to some extent understand that parents want to bury their kids under mountains of presents - the reason is simply that parently love may lead to absurd consequences - but the point is that the kids don't have enough money to buy their own junk so somebody has to do it for them. With adults that argument isn't valid, and it puzzles me that us adults have to refrain from buying things we need because our families need to have present options - and then we end up getting something that isn't exactly the kind of merchandise we had in mind... But more about that later.

GR: Κάποτε έκανα μια σειρά δίγλωσσων εκτυπώσεων για το κοάλα και για την πόλη της Αδελαΐδας, και αυτοί ήταν οι κείμενα που έφερα στο σπίτι της μητέρας μου. Έχω φτάσει αρκετά μακριά με τις ελληνικές μου σπουδές για να μπορώ να διαβάσω αυτά τα κείμενα σχεδόν χωρίς να εξετάσω τη μετάφραση, γι 'αυτό είναι εξαιρετική ανάγνωση τις 'καλής νύχτας'. Φυσικά, γνωρίζω πολλά πράγματα για τα κοάλα, αλλά είχα ξεχάσει ότι το 40% του κρανίου του τα κοάλα είναι γεμάτο με υγρό. Επιπλέον, τα κοάλα μολύνονται μόνιμα με ψυχοδραστικές ουσίες στην τροφή τους που αποτελούνται αποκλειστικά από φύλλα του ευκαλύπτου. Είναι επομένως πολύ κατανοητό ότι δεν θεωρούνται ιδιαίτερα πολύ έξυπνα.

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Iversen
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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby Iversen » Wed Dec 05, 2018 11:23 pm

Since my last message I have worked with texts in a number of languages, including Bulgarian, Russian, Italian, Indonesian and Irish, but I have also been listening to music, and here I have passed a milestone: I have reached the end of my music collection!!!!!! This is not a small thing since I have calculated that it would take almost two months to play it all if you let it run without stop 24 x 7 ... which I obviously can't do since I also need to sleep once in a while. As I have explained earlier the whole collection is digital now, but still adhers to the format of the old cassettes - i.e. pairs of files, each with a length of 40 to 50 minutes (because the old cassettes had durations of 45 or 50 minutes per side, a or b). Each set of files is concentrated on a main composer, and then the works of composers with fewer minutes are used to fill out the holes.

I had to use this system in a fairly consistent way in the years 1991-92 when I made my second cassette collection (collection no. 1 being rather chaotic) because the durations of those tapes can't be changed, and since I transferred the whole caboodle to waw and MP3 a couple of years ago I have spent oceans of time moving those scattered filler items around so that the works of each composer all are found in as few files as possible - and if those aren't 'the files of that composer, then at least they should be lodged in files with related music. For instance I have got 4 files named Zelenka 1a, 1b, 2 and 2b, but 2b doesn't contain any music by the famous Czech Jan Dismas Zelenka. Instead it contains everything I've got by the German baroque composer Franz Tunder, who didn't get his own file set - but now at least I can hear all my Tunder in one go.

Of course it would be more logical to have separate files for each composer, but then some of those files would last one minute only - like the one reserved for Walther von der Vogelweide ('Palestinalied' in a version for consort) or the one dedicated to José Maria Valle Riestra ('Ao pé do Fogeira'), and I want to have fairly long files so that I can start a file and go to my armchair to study languages without having to rush back to the computer every five minutes. And since my life was invaded by cassette tapes in the early 70s I have been living with durations in the interval around 45 to 50 minutes so now I am going to stick with that format to the end of my life.

SP: En este momento escucho el archivo Albéniz 2b, donde acabo de escuchar toda la colección de piezas para piano llamada Iberia, y ahora mismo estoy escuchando la instrumentación de Déodat de Sévérac para orquesta de la pieza llamada Navarra. Mi vida con señor Albéniz se remonta a un grabación barata sur LP que incluía su Concierto Fantastico con Felicia Blumenthal y el Orquesta sinfonica de Torino bajo Alberto Zedda. Compré esta grabación en algún momento durante los años 60, y cuando hice mi segunda colección de casetes en 1991-92, transfirí la música a una cinta de cassette, y ahora se transfirió una volta más a un archivo digital. ¿Y entonces la calidad del sonido tiene que ser horrible? Ahora, realmente no, pero por supuesto hay un poco de zumbido y se puede oír tambien como la aguja se alza del viejo plato de vinilo. Pero siempre que la calidad no es demasiado terrible, me gusta mantener esta grabación antigua porque me recuerdo mi vida con esta grabación. Y, por cierto, ya que no tengo más un tocadiscos en funcionamiento, yo no podría reproducir mi disco de vinilo aunque lo quisiera.

RU: Но иногда мне приходится выходить за пределами моей существующей коллекции, а затем я в основном перехожу на Youtube, потому что это одно из немногих мест, где я нахожу музыку вне наиболее распространенного репертуара (который обычно уже е включен в мою коллекцию). Например, я прочитал список моих файлов и назвал, что у меня есть файл с единственным опусом в сборнике русского композитора Гео́ргий Васи́льевич Свири́дов, Триптика. Хорошо, поэтому я слушаю несколько других работ, сделанных им на Youtube. Он работал в сталинскую эпоху и поэтому писал в консервативном стиле с воспоминаниями о русской народной музыке. Западные любовники уродливого и невежественного модернизма ненавидят таких композиторов, но мне это нравится (тогда как я ненавижу уродливый и невежественный модернизм). Культурная политика Сталина была отвратительной, но композиторы научились жить с ней и все равно писать хорошую музыку. Это соответствует прослушиванию органной музыки для литургического использования (и посещениям соборов), хотя я не религиозен.

Но история на этом не заканчивается. В Youtube я случайно увидел ссылку на концерт арабских тем Назировой и Амировым. Эльмира Назирова была ученицей и другом Шостаковича, но ее работы на Youtube не так много. С другой стороны, я нашел много отличной музыки Эльмира Назирова была ученицей и другой Шостаковича, но ее работы на Youtube не так много. С другой стороны, я нашел много отличной музыки от Амирова (Fikrət Məşədi Cəmil oğlu Əmirov), который был азербайджанским композитором.

Я сомневаюсь, что на любом концерте в Дании была играана какая-то музыку какаям-то азербайджанским композитором, и вы, вероятно, не продавали ни на музыкальных кассетах, ни на CD-дисках произведения Амирова в датских магазинах. Соответственно, на мой скептицизм в отношении Youtuba с авторскими правами должны найти скрытые драгоценности на Youtube.

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Iversen
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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby Iversen » Thu Dec 06, 2018 10:34 pm

Today I have been listening to about three hours of music by the Italian baroque composer Albinoni, about one hour of works by Eugene Francis Charles d'Albert, who in spite of his French name is a German composer born in Glasgow, and about 1½ hour of music by the Romanian composer Liana Alexandra. Albinoni is sometimes played in Denmark, though mostly it is his oboe concerto op. 9 no. 2, since you can't count the famous adagio, which is in reality the work of his biographer Giazotto (1910-1998) with just the main theme - and maybe not even that - originating from the old master himself. As for Eugene D'Albert, his works have probably not been played on a regular concert in Denmark since before the first world war, and I daresay that Alexandra is as unknown to the Danish concert public as Sviridov, Nazirova and Amirov were yesterday. She was a Romanian composer, which may be part of the explanation (besides being female). The only Romanian composer (apart from the panflute player Zamfir) who has ever attracted the hypervigilant eagle eyes of the Danish concert program compilers, is George Enescu ... or, well, maybe not, but they may know who he is, which is all you can expect. To actually play his works is another matter.

So I don't go to concerts any more.

RO: Wikipedia române explica că "Liana Alexandra (..1947-2011..) a fost o compozitoare și pianistă română, doctor în muzicologie și profesoară universitară la Universitatea Națională de Muzică din București, (...) (...)este considerată drept cel mai important compozitor român al generației ei." Asta sunt cuvinte foarte lăudabile, dar, evident, nu a cauzat faima internațională. Opusul meu preferat în producție sa (unele dintre ele pot să fie auzite pe Youtube) este Simfonia nr. 9, Ierusalim - în special ultimele 7 minute, amintindu-mi de stilul compozitorului armenean / american Hovhaness. De fapt, am ascultat acest pasaj două ori la rând, ceea ce nu este tipic în timpul unei revizuiri generale.

Cu toate acestea, observați că scorul care poate fi văzut la IMSLP (și aici mai jos) este scrise de mână - e probabil că nu au fost bani să-l conduc printr-un proces de digitizare. Lucrările au fost, de asemenea, puse la dispoziția gratuit pe IMSLP, ceea ce arată că nu s-a estimat ca-i bani în publicarea acestora. Cu excepția cazului în care compozitorul sau moștenitorii permit publicarea, există o limită de drepturi de autor de 70 de ani în Europa (50 de ani în Canada) înainte ca acestea să poată fi publicate în mod liber. Lucrările mele sunt, de asemenea, gratuite pentru preluarea la IMSLP, pentru că nu mă aștept să câștig un singur cent asupra lor. Dar este mai surprinzător că același lucru sa întâmplat și cu producția d-nei Alexandra, care totuși a avut un succes considerabil în țara de origine și a primit multe prețuri fine.

Alexandra_Jerusalem.jpg

BU: Завърших работата си с текстовете в моята българска колекция от археологии, и последният текст беше яростено протест срещу вярването, че българите не са били там поне 10 000 години. Такива статии обикновено трябва да са бъдем скептични, но изглежда, че българският народ в техните y-хромозоми съдържа изненадващо голяма част от наследствения материал от най-старите времена. Има поне 5 големи популации, а R1A1 и R1B1 (двете от степите) дори не са най-голямата група. По-на запад в Европа R1B1 е господстващо, а в Полша и Русия R1A1 е доминиращо, но инвазорите може би са преминали покрай България по новите си коне.
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Iversen
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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby Iversen » Sat Dec 08, 2018 6:35 pm

EN: I have had some kind of inflammation in my lungs for a week, and yesterday I got a doctor to write a prescription for some medicin - which turned out to be an antibiotic named azithromycin. In the old days you could put a pencil in the hand of your sleeping medical serviceperson, and if you then woke him/her abruptly the involuntary movements of his/her hand might produce a prescription on penicillin. So I have never tried Azi-something before and didn't know that it has a very beneficial side-effect: boosting my Icelandic language skills. The point is that the package insert is in Danish and Icelandic, and I have spent some time today working my way through the Icelandic version. It is common for gadgets of all kinds to have multilingual manuals, but they mostly tell what all the buttons are for - which rarely is too exhilarating. Medical inserts are slightly closer to real life since they tell what you should do or not do and which other medicins you shouldn't take at the same time and what may happen if you don't follow the instructions - in this case temporay hearing loss and severe nausea if you take too much of the stuff. Therefore the sentence constructions may be relevant in other situations than pill consumption.

IC: Strax fra byrjunum inniheldur textann sumir af þeim mest einkennandi mannvirki á íslensku, t.d. frúmlaglausa málefna: "Lesið allan fylgjiseðlinn aður en byrjað er að nota lyfið" (read all insert-the before than begun is to use medicine-the), og "Ekki má gefa það öðrum" (not may give it to-others). Íslendingar eru þekktir fyrir að forðast lánaorð. Er hægt að segja "apótek" (frá græsku, hvar orðið upphaflega þýddi geymsla fyrir allt, ekki bara lyf), en besta orð er lyfjabuð, og og starfsmenn inni í versluninni eru lyfjafræðingar - þ.e. 'fróðingar viðvikjanda lyf' - (örugglega ekki 'pharmacians').

EN: Apart from that, I have been working with texts in Bulgarian (Alzheimer's disease) and Indonesian (dark energy), and my goodnight reading yesterday was the latest issue of the magazine of UEA, "Esperanto".

EO: Ĝi ne estas la plej ekscita revuo de la Tero, sed enhavis unuopa interesa artikolo, kie la Esperanto-movado komparas al la Komunuma de Starwars. Mi kutime komparas la komunomo de Esperantistoj kun la tuboludantoj aŭ kolektantoj de poŝtmarkoj (neniu el ili havas iu-ajn influon sur internacia politiko), ĉar iliaj ĝeneralaj pacemaj tendencoj malhelpas min kompari ilin kun la Klingono-studentoj.

EN: And concerning music: I have listened to music by the two Swedes Hugo Alfvén and Elfrida Andrée and the French Alkan. Alfvén is well known in Denmark because of his Midsommarvaka (and also for having seduced the painter Krøyer's wife), Andrée is not known at all.

FR: Et combien de personnes ont entendu parler du pianiste-compositeur français Charles-Valentin Alkan? Il vivait 1813 - 1888, et sa prouesse ès virtuosité pianistique était louée par tous le monde qui eurent la chance de l'entender jouer. Seul problème: il a terriblement souffert du trac et évitait tant que possible jouer en publique. Et c'est pas comme ça comme on devient riche et fameux, hein? Mais du moins sa mort aurait du attirer un peu de notoriété: on dit qu'il est mort écrasé sous une bibliothèque encombrée. Hélàs, c'est un mythe: selon Wikipédia "Il meurt le 29 mars 1888, à 74 ans et contrairement à la légende, ce dernier n'aurait pas été écrasé par sa bibliothèque en voulant saisir le Talmud. Alkan aurait été retrouvé prostré dans sa cuisine sous un porte-parapluie auquel il se serait tenu avant de s'évanouir. (...) Alkan meurt dans un oubli presque total".

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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby jeff_lindqvist » Sat Dec 08, 2018 11:10 pm

Iversen wrote:EN: And concerning music: I have listened to music by the two Swedes Hugo Alfvén and Elfrida Andrée and the French Alkan. Alfvén is well known in Denmark because of his Midsommarvaka (and also for having seduced the painter Krøyer's wife), Andrée is not known at all.


In my area, Elfrida Andrée isn't totally unknown - she was born here, and a high school is named after her. She was also Sweden's first female domkyrkoorganist as well as Sweden's first female telegraph operator.
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Iversen
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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby Iversen » Mon Dec 10, 2018 2:48 pm

SW: Jag känner bara Elfrida Andrées biografi från Wikipedia (på engelska och svenska), men det ger intrycket av en dam som var villig att slåss för sin sak, och som på sikt också fick några resultat av det. Jeff nämner att hon blev telegrafist - ja, men bara efter att två nedlåtande avslag från kungliga majestätens kontor. Till slut ändrades en lag mot att anställa kvinnliga telegrafister och hon fick ett jobb, men efter segern byttede hon yrka och slutade som organist vid Göteborgs domkyrka, men återigen krävs föra dette en lagändring. Och när hon skulle studera komposition, måste det göras via privata lektioner med danskaren N.W.Gade och svensken L.Norman (både ansedde konservative samhällsstöd) eftersom det ännu inte akcepterades kvinnliga studenter vid konservatorierne. Och så ble hon förresten föddes i Visby på Gotland, där ett gymnasium en tid var uppkallad efter henne - men tyvärr er denna skola sedan blivit innkorporerat i en större skole som heter Wisbygymnasiet (kanske Jeff vet varför det stavas med W och inte V?). Det verkar dock som om en spårvagn i Göteborg fortfarande bär hennes namn (men tyvärr inte den på bilden).

Just nu lyssnar jag på musik av en annan svensk, Kurt Atterbergs andra symfoni (var speciellt den första satsen är sublim).

EN: Apart from that: I have been rereading old texts in Irish, Albanian and Bulgarian - but since I already have mentioned those texts in this log once it would be a bit too much to tell about them again.

Sporvogn-Göteborg.jpg

PS: In another thread the question of the spelling of Aegypt (and Aegyptology) was raised. Here is my input to that topic:

Ae- and E-. Any usage difference?.

Here in Denmark the spelling "Ægypten" was formerly the most common one, and we often have 'Æ' where the Germans have "Ä", but nowadays the English spelling with E has become the normal one ("Egypten"). The irony is that the old spelling was more in line with the pronunciation, where we still mostly use an open e-sound and not the closed variant. But who knows? Maybe the pronunciation will also succomb to lure of English + modern spelling habits and adopt the closed e-sound. I do however trust that the name of Egypt won't ever be pronounced as /eedjipt/ as in Inglish.
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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby Iversen » Wed Dec 12, 2018 6:47 pm

As everybody else I have noticed that we have a member named Avalon, who has a thread named Avalon, and... no, it is not about Avalon, but about Modern Greek. So I became curious to see whether there actually is a word like "Αβαλον" (or "Αουαλον") in Modern Greek, but it doesn't seem so. Instead I ended up reading Wikipedia articles in Greek about topics from the Arthurean legends, including the one about Avalon itself.

GR: Το άρθρο για το αυτό το νησί Άβαλον δεν είναι πολύ μακρύ, αλλά περιέχει ένα διάσημο απόσπασμα:

Hic jacet sepultus inclitus rex Arthurus in insula Avalonia.
Ενθάδε κείται ο Βασιλιάς Αρθούρος στο νησί Αβαλονία


Αυτό είναι το κείμενο ενός μνημείου που βρέθηκε στη γη στα ερείπια της μονής Γκλάστονμπερι (Glastonbury) στου Σόμερσετ κατά το έτος 1998, αλλά είναι σχεδόν σίγουρα ένα ψεύδος από τον Μεσαίωνα. Το μοναστήρι είχε καεί πριν από λίγα χρόνια και οι μοναχοί χρειάστηκαν χρήματα για να τον ξαναχτίσουν - και στη συνέχεια βρήκατε πολύ άνετα (!) κατάλοιπα του βασιλιά Αρθούρου, τα οποίοα η αδελφή του, Μοργκανα λε Φέϊ (Morgana le Fey), σύμφωνα με τους ισχυρισμούς έφερε για Γκλάστονμπερι από το νησί Avalon.

LA: In facto, nos scimus paululissimum de ipso regi Arthuro. Sed ut ius Arti notitia melius elucidare necesse est ad tempum Britanniae sub imperio Romanorum regredi. Egressus romanorum de monacho Gildae descriptus est in carmine suo "De Excidio et Conquestu Britanniae" in saeculo VI, et ego umquam de isto scripsi in hoc filo. Post fuga romanorum pars Britannorum continuabam mores romani vivere, et illi etiam linguam latinam in usu conservabam. Alii (vulgus et non-clerici) linguam celticam loquebant et sub reges parvarum nationium vivebam in oppidis suis. Societas ista romana-celtica de pictes scotesque aliquotiens direptae est, et Gildas narrat quomodo rex unum, Vortigern, insipienter mercenarii germani invitavi ut contra pictes et scotes et inimicos alios pugnare, sed ille stipendium stipulatum numquam pugnatoribus dedit et tunc totam patriam suam acceperunt invasores.

Fons paulo posterior, Beda Venerabilis, in libro suo "Historia ecclesiastica gentis Anglorum" scripsi mercenarii Saxones, Angli lutique esse et duces eorum fratres Hengist et Horsa essent. Chronica Anglosaxonum (in lingva Anglosaxonica) idem inquit. (DU: Het is opmerkelijk dat een stam niet genoemd werd: de friezen - maar ze zijn mogelijk afzonderlijk naar Groot-Brittannië geëmigreerd, zowel voor als na de invasie door Hengest en Horsa).

EN: Some modern scholars have claimed that Hengest and Horsa are pure fiction, maybe even some mythological horse spirits or gods (otherwise unknown to science), but this seems more like a feeble attempt to fight the tendency of previous times to believe anything in any old legend than as a serious scientific attempt to prove that the clear and unmistakable information given by Bede and the Chronicle might be wrong. Bede wrote some 200 years after the probable date of the invasion, and it is more likely that people still remembered the names of the Anglosaxon leaders than that he should have invented them just for fun. And it is more likely that Bede knew his stuff than that the modern sceptics know anything that rules his statements out. We find the same problem with king Arthur.

LA: Facte Gildas nomen "Arthurus" non mentionavit, sed referentia ad hominem 'ursum 'feci, et homo ille magnopere pugnavit contra Anglosaxones, incessum eorum ad fines Cambriae obstruens.

EN: And now I should have switched to Kymric (Welsh), but unfortunately I can write in that language yet. So I'll just mention that a scholar named Graham Phillips has found the navn of the king in that period in the kingdom at that precisely border in an Old Welsh manuscript called the Harleian Genealogies. But alas, it isn't Arthur- it is Owain Ddantgwyn (pronounced “Owen Thant-gwyn”). But apparently it was common to refer to notable persons by their nicknames back then, so this isn't a showstopper.

Back to the etymology of the name Arthur: "arth" in Old Welsh actually meant bear, but as mentioned with untimely glee in the English Wikipedia,

(the) proposed derivation of Arthur from Welsh arth "bear" + (g)wr "man" (earlier *Arto-uiros in Brittonic) is not accepted by modern scholars for phonological and orthographic reasons. Notably, a Brittonic compound name *Arto-uiros should produce Old Welsh *Artgur (where u represents the short vowel /u/) and Middle/Modern Welsh *Arthwr, rather than Arthur (where u is a long vowel /ʉː/). In Welsh poetry the name is always spelled Arthur and is exclusively rhymed with words ending in -ur—never words ending in -wr—which confirms that the second element cannot be [g]wr "man".


Game over or what? No, because there is no other likely source. The original nickname can't be 'bearman', so the second element then just has to be something different - heaven knows what. It is worth stressing the fact that Gildas didn't use the real name of that old king either - no Owain Ddantgwyn in his poem. But Owain D was in the right spot at the right time to be the real person behind 'king Arthur', and the name 'Arthur' pops up just about anywhere in the sources from the 7. century and onwards, so I tend to accept this identification until somebody comes up with something that functions better.

And what then about the rest of the myth?

IR: Ní féidir liom scríobh ar sa Bhreatnais (Kymric), mar is í an Ghaeilge an teanga is gaire i mo bhailiúchán. Agus an scéal ar fad ar King Arthur a bheith ag brath ar fhéiniúlacht Cheilteach, lena n-áirítear an iomarca álainn sa "Y Gododdin" ón 6ú haois.

EN: And then a certain Geoffrey of Monmouth wrote a book named "Historia Regum Britanniae", where he systematically lied about the history of the English kings all the way back to Arthur. Btw. I have learned a new word from the Wikipedia article about Arthur: "Pre-Galfridian" - which means 'before Geoffrey of Monmouth" - too much honour, if you ask me, to invent a word for this pathetic obfuscator. But the point is that mr. Monmouth wrote his book in the 1130s, where chivalry was the word of the day and kings built real castles with turrets and all that stuff which we associate with king Arthur's Camelot, so it is his version of the tale that has been used in all later Arthurean fiction, up to and including a massive novel called "the Mists of Avalon" by a lady whose name I have forgotten.

By the way, even the name "Camelot" is a fabrication, but this time by Chrétien de Troyes, who needed a place name to rhyme on "Lancelot" (the hero of his chef-d'oeuvre). If we are very friendly to this author, then the name could come from the Roman town name Camulodunum, which may be tentatively identified with the modern town Colchester. But did Chrétien actually know this town name - back in the 12. century where there was no Wikipedia around to ask about such things?

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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby Iversen » Fri Dec 14, 2018 3:41 pm

I have spent some time today rereading old books from the course I got in Ancient French at the university, and I may have overstated my reading abilities a little bit - there are isolated words in the old texts that do call for some hard thinking or a peek into my Old-to-Modern-French dictionary from Larousse. I wrote the sentence after a short peek into Groult/Emond/Muraille's collection, and apparently the text found where the book opened by itself was one I have worked with earlier - and that's of course why the book opened precisely there...

In spite of this I still think that reading old prose texts in Old French is at least as easy as understanding anything written by people like Derrida or Lacan in Modern French. Or certain articles in Le Monde...

I'm pondering currently whether I should spend some time composing a wee report in Ancient French - I have done this twice on this forum, on page 6 and page 41 (quote: Anc FR: Donques, icel ne est mie la tapiserie de Bayeulx, come ge croyai avans.), but because I lack the essential Modern-to-Ancient-French dictionary it is laborious process, which only can be performed after several days of concentrated reading of dusty old stuff.

AL:
Kam studiuar gjithashtu tekste të ndryshme për disa vende pranë Gjirokastit në Shqipëri, por është një temë krejtësisht e ndryshme.

Kunst004.JPG


[FR]: Et comme promis:

[AncFR]: Come gié vos escrivi desus, voldrai volontiers conter longuement sur mes estudes dels textes Arturiens en vieulx françois, or cil ne est mie posible char gaire ai lu assez por me bien exprimer en ceste langue sans dictionaire por me guier. Donques gié ferai altrement, gié vos dirai come escrire en une langue dans laquelle a faict hom ne puit escrire.

Devancierement: puet on trover un dictionaire XX -> Ancien Langue d'Oil come livre? Gié ai vu sur le site ucalgary.ca que il est un, "Walker, Douglas. 1982. Dictionnaire inverse de l'ancien français (Ottawa)". Sur le site freelang hom trove un "Dictionnaire en ligne", et glosbe presente un altre, mais les dois ont por base un nombre moult restroit de mots, et ne sont donques point tres utles. Verbix ne ofre tableaulx por ancien François, mais gié trovai un bon alternatif: le site TCAF.

Si gié desja une bone idee por un mot gié puis chercher le mot en le dictionaire de A.J.Greimas (chiez Larousse) ou icel de Godefroy, qui se trove sur le site micmac.

Un essample: Gié désirai escrire "d'abord", mais selonc Greimas et Godefroy cil ne fust en usage oncor - seuls "aborder" et "abordement" (li fet de entrer un bateau sans permis). Or gié eu l'idee de porchaceor "avant" et trouvai donques dans le Godefroy le mot "devancierement", avecques la declarciement (en françois moderne) "adv. Premiérement, d'abord". Et gié suis saulve, mais seul por icest mot ... et ay moults altres que gié abesoignie por escrire bien.

Et si gié n'ai point de bone idee ... pauvre de moi!
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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby Iversen » Fri Dec 14, 2018 6:04 pm

IT: In un altro thread c'è un link a una competizione in cui l'a sfida è di tradurre il primo capitolo del romanzo italiano "Neve, Cane, Piede" di Claudio Morandini in inglese. É quasi impensabile che il vincitore non sia un anglofono nativo, e inoltre si deve accettare un abbonamento di un anno presso la casa editrice per participare .. quindi ho appena tradotto il testo di esempio in danese (meno il dialogo finale). Ho messo il risultato qui sotto.

Normalmente è necessario un permesso per tradurre materiale sotto copyright e pubblicare il risultato, ma poiché tutti sono invitati a partecipare a questo concorso e il testo è dato gratuitamente da scaricare per lo scopo presumo che sia OK per fare una traduzione, anche se non la fa entrare nella competizione Se la Casa Peirene pensa diversamente, la traduzione sarà ovviamente rimossa ASAP.


DA: Sne, Hund, Fødder
kap.1

De første forårstegn får Adelmo Farandola til at tage til landsbyen for at gøre indkøb. Om morgenen da han kommer ud af sin hytte og ser sig omkring på sæteren, er græsset gennemtrukket af rimfrost der har svært ved at tø. Iskolde vinde farer gennem dalen, trænger tilmed gennem sæterhyttens vægge, synes at hamre på døren både dag og nat. Skyerne bliver større, tynger alt ned, og intet løser dem længere fra klippevæggene. Ergo ned i landsbyen, før det bliver for sent og et snefald måske gør tilbagevejen vanskeligere.

Adelmo Farandola går og går med ranslen på ryggen. Han har brug for tørret kød, pølser, vin og smør. Kartoflerne som han har lagt tilside holder nok vinteren over. Nu hviler de i mørket i stalden, ved siden af de gamle alperedskaber: baljer, grimer, smørkærner, kæder, børster, og de blege spirende skud rager frem som for at minde om deres eksistens. Så kartofler er der, og også æbler - kassevis af æbler, som frosten gør rynkede, men stadig spiselige. Adelmo Farandola elsker smagen af de der grimme æbler, en smag der snerper munden sammen og hager sig fast i de små næsehår og minder lidt om kød, om det møre kød som kommer efter en vellykket jagt. Æblerne er der også, og der er nok til hele vinteren. Pølser behøver man, og vin. Vin og smør, Smør og salt.

Vinden puffer ham til siden mens han går ned mod landsbyen. Trætheden rammer ham, og han kommer næsten til at smågrine ved tanken om hvor træt han vil blive på tilbagevejen med den vind. Stien snor sig langs slugter og over flade områder, og sommetider forsvinder den mellem gamle nedbrudte træstubbe, i det høje græs eller mellem stenbunker i endeløs bevægelse, men manden ved hvordan man holder kursen.

Her, midtvejs langs kysten, giver efteråret lærketræerne en falmet gullig farve. Det er ikke det muntre og pågående efterår fra dalbunden, med den hidsige palet af vinmarker iblandet elle- og kastanjeskove. Bladene heroppe dør straks, de tørrer ud på grenene inden de falder til jorden.

Tidligere tog Adelmo Farandola oftere til landsbyen for at lytte til landsbyorkestret på festdagene. Han gemte sig bag husmurene og fandt sig i at lyden fra bandet var noget rodet når den nåede ham. Men han var holdt op med at gøre dette fordi nogen havde set ham og var gået hen mod ham for at trykke hans hånd og veksle et par ord med ham. Nu nøjes han med at gå ned til midt i bøgelunden og lytte til ensemblet derfra, godt beskyttet af bladene og træstammerne. Musikken kommer utydeligt derop, som en blanding af stortrommeslag, tubaer og skingre lyde fra trompeterne som blafrer i vinden, men det er fint nok, og sommetider lykkedes det ham endda at genkende en eller anden melodi, og han får sågar lyst til at nynne den - og så gør han det, men musestille, fordi han ikke ønsker at blive opdaget af en eller anden forbipasserende, som kunne finde på at gå hen til ham og give hånd til ham og spørge om ting han ikke ved eller har glemt eller ikke ønsker at vide noget om eller udtale sig om.

Men efter nogle minutter bliver han utilpas endog af bandet. De er for mange, for sammenstuvede, for larmende og for glade. Og så spytter han på jorden, vender sig om og går den stejle vej hjemad, mens han siger til sig selv at det ensemble lyder gudsjammerligt, at alle indbyggerne i landsbyen er dumme og at musikken ikke tjener noget formål. Men det sker også at han drømmer om bandet, og i drømmen hører han smukke melodier, som musikerne spiller aldeles klokkerent. Og så følger han frygtløst bag efter ensemblet og synger af fuld hals den musik der kunne have míndet ham om gamle dage i hans ungdom, hvis han ellers kunne have husket stykkerne i deres helhed - baller med piger, og især strid og kampe med de andre bejlere, lange snakker med pigerne, mestendels sammensat af tavshed og suk og beruset småbøvsen.

En vag fornemmelse af uro griber Adelmo Farandole ved landsbyens første huse. Han ser sig omkring, og alt virker mindre fremmedartet end det normalt er tilfældet når han kommer til landsbyen for at købe ind efter måneder alene på sæteren. Han tager uden vaklen hovedgaden, den eneste der fortjener at blive kaldt en rigtig gade, og går med en lethed der overrasker ham selv mod butikken, den eneste der fortjener det navn. Butikken kommer til syne på kirkepladsen, den eneste plads der fortjener det navn, med et vindue fyldt med støvede redskaber og gaveting som det lange ophold i solen har gjort næsten farveløse, Der sælger man alting, fødevarer og landbrugsredskaber, linned og aviser, sågar nogle nipsting til damerne. Adelmo Farandola går indenfor, idet han helt naturligt bøjer hovedet som man gør af frygt når man går ind i en kirke, eller som han altid gør for ikke at slå hovedet ind i den lave overligger på sæterhyttens dør. Butiksdamen ser overrasket på ham og smiler.

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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby Iversen » Mon Dec 17, 2018 1:57 pm

POR: Tenemos algumas veces discutido o tema se você sonha em línguas estrangeiras o não. Eu tenho muitos sonhos onde não é falado de jeito nenhum (pelo menos não tanto quanto eu me lembro), mas onde eu me movo por cidades ou casas para explora-las. E quando é falado, é geralmente em dinamarquês, mas às vezes se fala tambem em línguas estrangeiras - geralmente porque o lugar convida a isto. Me acordei esta manhã após um sonho onde me mudei por uma enorme biblioteca em vários andares - e isto não era um edifício que visitei no mundo real, mas parecia um pequeno o Oceanário do bairro Oriente de Lisboa. Ao começo, eu tentava encontrar uma máquina de fotocópia (não sei porque), e quando cheguei no salão principal comecei portanto a perguntar a alguns bibliotecários onde havia uma máquina desse tipo. Mas eles responderam falando de qualquer outra coisa - um deles sugeriu que eu devia ler Os Lusíadas (que eu realmente possuo, mas ainda não li) - e então eu acordei...

SE: Сјећам се (врло нејасног) из другог сања да сам сједио за столом у Србији са неким стварима које нисам могла имати у кабини у кући авиона, укључујући и велики нож. Али у том сну вероватно није сам говорио. Само знам да је то Србија јер сам размишљао да одем аутобусом у Бугарску.

EN: And then there is of course the implacably returning annual Christmas thing. In my family we have luckily managed to cut down on many things, which onlike the Christmas hearts aren't on my personal wish list - like presents. We have decided that the sum spended should be minimized to something like 20 € or $, and in principle we make wish lists to avoid unwelcome blunders. Therefore we normally know beforehand what we get, which makes the whole buying and packing circus even more ridiculous. Actually I got my Christmas from my sister present a month ago because I needed it (it was a thing that can be used to charge things through USB directly from a plug in the wall) so I'll just repack and label the object and put it under the tree. And the tree ... haha, it is no longer some kind of pine, but a wiry metal thing with LEDs on - and my mother use it all year round to light up her living room after dark. But up to Christmas eve (which is the main present-distributing-day here in Denmark, with Christmas day only used to eat, digest and jog around) we load it with glass balls and other traditional stuff - but no hearts, since the whole room is decorated with hundreds of Christmas hearts, and that's enough - too much of a good thing isn't a good thing...

But this year we'll do one thing that has become a rarity: we'll cook KLEJNER !!!!! The picture below is from 2008, which may be the latest year where we went through this ordeal. Wikipedia defines them as follows:

Klenät, klena, klejne, kleina, kleyna, and fattigmann are all names for a fried pastry common in the Nordic countries. It is also found in nearby countries (such as Lithuania, under the name Žagarėliai). The name is related to klen, the Swedish term for "slender",[1] but is originally of Low German origin, which may indicate that the pastry was originally German. It is made from flattened dough cut into small trapezoids. A slit is cut in the middle and then one end pulled through the slit to form a "knot". The kleina is then deep-fried in oil or another kind of fat. In Scandinavia, klenäter are traditionally eaten around Christmas (...)

But this is not enough to define them properly. The fatty stuff used to cook them in should be "palmin" (the Danish name for hydrogenated coconut oil), which has a high content af all the wrong fatty acids and would be likely to make you swell up like a balloon if you ate it every day - but once in ten years should be OK. In the old days before people got stoves in their homes most of the homemade cookies were in fact cooked, but the "klejner" are today the only kind that has survived in Denmark - probably because of the funny look. But beware: the specimen you see in Wikipedia represents a low quality variant produced by lazy bastards and/or the industry. Truly good "klejner" are thin and crispy and delicious, which means that the dow should be less than a millimeter thick. And then you understand how it can become a delicate task to take one corner of one trapezoid and stuff it through the slit in the middle without breaking the whole thing - you need to get the dough cooled to just the right temperature, and you need to take your time. And that's why we don't make them every year. Actually we have also dropped making homebaked cookies since you can buy them everywhere in aceptable qualities. But you simply can't buy good "klejner" anywhere - you have to make them yourself.

F4600b01_klejner.jpg
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