Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby Iversen » Sun Mar 12, 2023 9:07 am

Yesterday morning I woke up from a dream in German ...

GER: Ich saß in einem Nahverkehrzug und wollte eigentlich in Nürnberg aussteigen, aber das gelang mir nicht, weil der Waggon mit Reisende voolgestopft war (eine Erinnerung an das 9 €-Chaos des Sommers ?), so ich stieg an der nächsten Station aus - und das war Fürth. Und warum gerade Fürth? Vermutlich weil Deutschlands erste Eisenbahn von Nürnberg nach Fürth führte. Hier ging ich durch eine schmale Straße mit mehreren alten Häusern. Ich habe keine Ahnung, wie die Stadt in Wirklichkeit aussieht - ich war noch nie dort. Und ich landete am ende der Straaße an einem Hafenbecken, das es in dieser Stadt garantiert nicht gibt. Hier habe ich mehrere eingeborene Deutsche gefragt, ob es im gegend ein Hotel gäbe, bin aber aufgewacht, bevor ich eines gefunden habe. Und somit hab' ich ein Haufen Geld gespart…

EN: Apart from that: in the real world it had snowed during the night, so I went out to get some photos, but the rest of the day I spent studying and watching Youtube videos (and sometimes also oldfashioned flow-TV with sound). The list over my activities below is not complete, but you may notice that it doesn't mention my music collection. I'm right now between Coates and Coperario, but just as it saves a lot of money just to dream about hotels, it saves a lot of time skipping my daily dose of music listening.

OK, the first video I watched was clearly inspired by Ecolinguist, but came from youtuber 'Language map'. It confronted a Romanian with a Spaniard, a Portuguese and an Italian person. Then I succombed to the tentation of watching a one hour long video about fungi in English, followed by a genuine Ecolinguist thing where an Irish speaker and a Welsh speaker tried to understand each other - but alas no, they basically simply couldn't. The format was slightly different from the norm since they each posed two questions and between speaking their own languages they discussed the meagre outcome in English - which was good because I only know a little bit of Irish and no Gymric at all (and yes, it's normally spelt Kymric, but the lady said Gymric). With the subtitles I could more or less follow the Irish guy, but without them I would have been totally lost. And I didn't understand the Welsh lady at all.

After that some Linea Verde in Italian from flow-TV RaiUno with sound, but I turned the sound off when they started to sing, and then I just left the subtitles running - after all that's how I normally watch TV. And at that point I saw here in Llorg a post where CaroleR not only referred to my wordlist method, but also gave the links to three videos about it from señor Ruben Quinones. I watched the middle one ASAP (and the others later), and it was actually quite good - but also eight years old, and in the meantime people have forgotten all about the format. That's life...

Then a video about fake polyglot tricks, and I had expected a tirade against a string of named Youtube stars, but it was instead a fairly sober list of things you can do to impress people with your skills - such as learning a small number af phrases by heart, which you then rattle off in a discussion no matter what the other person says. Well, for those actually know the language this trick should be quite easy to spot, and on the list was also learning related languages - but that is in my opinion not a scam, just practical good sense.

Then I did some paperbased study: I worked my way through the Indonesian article about the poor genius Roger Bacon (inventor of the magnifying glass and other things, expert in Aristotle, alchemy and astrology, but also an early empiricist), who committed the single greatest error of his life by far when he joined the Franciscan monk order :roll: . That meant that he was physically incarcerated and blocked from publishing his works for the rest of his life - except during a period where the pope himself overruled the fiercely anti-intellectual Bonaventura, godfather of the Franciscan order. And after that an article in Russian about the Wrangel island, where the last tiny mammoths survived until 4000 years ago.

Back to Youtube, but here I happened to find some videos about archeological genetics in English. I did two talks about this topic at gatherings in Bratislava, but the scientists have been busy in the meantime (and Svante Pääbo has got a well deserved Nobel price in medicine). The first of these videos (by GeoNomad) followed the wanderings of the male carriers of the R1B1 gene. I knew that the Yamnaya that invaded Western Europe from 2800 BC and onwards were members of this haplogroup, but not that their forebears had arrived there from somewhere in Central Asia through Anatolia and (conceivably) SE Europe, nor that some of them had settled in central Africa. And after that a video about the wanderings of the R1A1 people, who today populate not only Eastern Europa, but also areas down towards Northern India. And after that a video about Homo sapiens versus the Neanderthals, which stated that the larynx of these last ones didn't wander as far down the throat as it does in modern humans, so even though they probably could speak they must have had rather squeaky voices. I also watched a video about the Denisovans, but forgot to jot down the web address.

Then I went back to good ol' Ecolinguist and watched (for the second time) a video where a Mexican guy and a Québecqois tried to understand Catalan, and that went fairly smoothly (at least compared to the meeting between the Irish Gaelic and Gymric speakers I mentioned above). After that something I hadn't watched already once, namely a video where a Québecqois, a Catalan and a speaker of Ligurian tried to understand Arpitan, which is a dialect or language spoken in SE France - though not much these days. I knew about it from my studies in the 70s, but I hadn't heard it spoken until now. - not even during my travels in the area. But actually I found it easier to understand than the Ligurian guy.

And after that a video where a Sicilian and an Albanian had a go with Arberesh, which is spoken by Albanians in Southern Italy - and of course the Albanian man understood more than the poor Sicilian (and me, in spite of my fragmentary studies of written Shquipt).

And during the final hour or so I listened to videos in Dutch. It wasn't easy to find them, but I arrived there through a video in English about hyperintelligent children (score 145+), and I watched among other things a video (26 minutes) by Tijl Koenderink about three such kids who in various ways didn't quite live up to the expectations because of their dubious survival strategies in school. One of them pretended in school that he couldn't read, but at home he could sit down and read the newspaper with his mother. And after some time the low expectations of the school spread like a disease to his reading skills at home. School made him actually stupider.

DU: In zowel de Engelse als de Nederlandse video's werd benadrukt dat een IQ van 130 al erg genoeg kan zijn, maar vanaf 145 lopen de betrokkenen het risico de mentale verbinding met hun meer normaal begaafde leeftijdsgenoten (en leraren) te verliezen. Dit is natuurlijk een interessant problematiek, maar voor mij persoonlijk is het meest relevante dat er meer video's met pure ongebroken Nederlandse praat op Youtube staan - zodat ik mijn Nederlandse luistervaardigheid kan trainen.

Fürth (de.Wikipedia).jpg

...and today I so far just have fed the birdies outside and myself and written this lengthy rant. My next task will be to check whether all the links in it function.
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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby luke » Sun Mar 12, 2023 9:36 am

Iversen wrote:Then a video about fake polyglot tricks, and I had expected a tirade against a string of named Youtube stars, but it was instead a fairly sober list of things you can do to impress people with your skills - such as learning a small number af phrases by heart, which you then rattle off in a discussion no matter what the other person says. Well, for those actually know the language this trick should be quite easy to spot, and on the list was also learning related languages - but that is in my opinion not a scam, just practical good sense.

It was all worth it when I found this comment:
simptip.png
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Iversen
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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby Iversen » Mon Mar 13, 2023 11:53 am

My program yesterday did resemble that for Saturday, except that I didn't jot down as many Youtube addresses. I tried to get them all Saturday just to illustrate what I do extensively - else I mostly write about the texts I study intensively. So today I'll just mention two main areas of Youtube extensive listening and one excursion into reading Wikipedia.

SW: Wikipedia-resan började med min fil med primitiva ryggradsdjur ("Arter01_Nixkæbedyr.pdf"), som till övervägande del är skriven på engelska och Latin med tillagda danska namn där de finns. Det vill säga, jag började med Tunicata (salper och sjögurkor) och Cepahalochordata-djuret Pikaya från Burgess-shale-formationen i Kanada, och sedan gick jag över Amphioxoformes såsom lansettfisken Branchiostoma lanceolatum til de käkløsa Agnata, som inkluderar Myxini (piråler) och Hyperoartia (nejonögar etc.) - och då skola jag såklart gärna velat ha utvecklat skillnaderna mellan dessa båda grupperna, så jag vandrade över till engelska Wikipedia för att låta mig bli rätt informerat om dessa fascinerande djur (som alla ser ut som bitar af slemmiga korvar). Men jag mår dåligt av att bara läsa förklaringar på engelska engelska och engelska, så jag bytte över till den svenska versionen, som är mer kortfattad och på ett språk som också behöver användas då och då för att inte atrofieras. Och så läste jag i en timme om primitiva, men uppenbarligen ganska livskraftiga varelser, samtidigt som jag lyssnade på engelsk musik från renässansen av Giovanni Coperario och ett antal delvis anonyma kompositörer av musik till 'masques'. Och när musiken slutade öppnade jag naturligtvis Youtube igen.

Petromyzon_marinus.001_-_Aquarium_Finisterrae.jpg

EN: The first video came of course from Ecolinguist, where I heard a French and a Spanish lady and a Romanian man trying frantically to make sense of questions in Lombard which is a dialect of (maybe) Italian (and rare, but according to the Lombard lady not stonedead yet). The Romanian man really struggled, and I would also say that I had to listen closely to hang on. From there to a video with an interview about Homo erectus, where it was said that this creature may have been the first humanoid to have a proper nose.

After that some other videos and some TV, but then I fell down into the black hole of Dutch videos about hoogbegaafde (highly gifted). First I listened to part of a talkshow named "Met andere ogen" (with other eyes), then I followed a link to an interview with a lady called Adrienne on a site named Stefan's something - and she spoke like a machingun (and for much longer). At first I thought that I could read Wikipedia articles in English at the same time - but no. Then I tried to just watch TV and look at pictures - but no, no.no To follow that white-water-rafting stream of words emanating from lady Adrianne and her partner I had to really focus and do just one thing, namely listen, and I'm not really used to that. Today I opened Youtube again, and its algorithm lured me into watching one more interview with Adrienne, and here she spoke at the same speed. OK, then let me try to listen to some other Dutch person, and on a channel called Lach en Leer I found an interview with a Kathleen Venderickx (funny spelling, could that be oud Vlaams?). She started at a moderate speed, but as she and her conversation partner got ever more fired up and laughter-prone these two soon spoke as fast as Adrienne, and again I had to really concentrate in order to hang on for dear life. So now I think I have tested (and trained) my Dutch oral conprehension enough for now, and I shall refrain from listening to anything in Dutch and/or pertaining to the problems of highly intelligent people for a couple of days until Youtube stops stuffing that stuff down my throat.

Kunst094.JPG

By the way: yesterday evening and at least one hour during the night I read an old yellow Teach Yourself Samoan, and now I know a wee bit aboot a language with half a million speakers which I can't see any point in learning. It's Austronesian like Bahasa Indonesia, which means that the morphology is limited (although verbs do have 4 or 5 unpredictable forms, often but not always based on reduplication patterns ), and that means that you have to juggle a lot of structure building particles that may have several totally unrelated roles for one form. Since the likelihood of me moving to Samoa or American Samoa is nil then I think I'll stick to just having one project from that family on my agenda.

Kunst089.JPG
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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby vegantraveller » Mon Mar 13, 2023 12:41 pm

Lombard is an Italian dialect from Lombardy and not rare at all!
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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby Iversen » Mon Mar 13, 2023 5:27 pm

Well, Lombard may have a high number of potential speakers, but the lady in the video (Simona Scuri) said in English near the end of the video (34:40) that the language was endangered, that the speakers were scattered over a vaste area and that they didn't have radio or TV stations (let alone an army and a fleet), but also that the possibility for using digital media might break the downwards trend - a few new young speakers had apparently taken it up using the social media. So I don't know exactly how many native or just fluent speakers there are, but for a tourist they are invisible so my guess is that there aren't many active speakers.

In case you wonder about my doubts about marking it as an Italian dialect: it's partly the usual question about the degree of mutual incomprehensibility you need before you give up thinking of something as a dialect, but also a historical fact, namely that Northern Italy during medieval times was the home of a dialect bundle that had as much in common with Occitan (and maybe Arpitan) as with the language spoken in Toscana, which through Dante Alighieri and some other notable authors became the model for Standard Italian. I heard some Ligurian a few days ago and now Lombard, and I had more trouble understanding those than I had with Napulitano and Sicilianu.

ItalienskDramatik.JPG
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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby vegantraveller » Mon Mar 13, 2023 7:39 pm

Iversen wrote:Well, Lombard may have a high number of potential speakers, but the lady in the video (Simona Scuri) said in English near the end of the video (34:40) that the language was endangered, that the speakers were scattered over a vaste area and that they didn't have radio or TV stations (let alone an army and a fleet), but also that the possibility for using digital media might break the downwards trend - a few new young speakers had apparently taken it up using the social media. So I don't know exactly how many native or just fluent speakers there are, but for a tourist they are invisible so my guess is that there aren't many active speakers.

In case you wonder about my doubts about marking it as an Italian dialect: it's partly the usual question about the degree of mutual incomprehensibility you need before you give up thinking of something as a dialect, but also a historical fact, namely that Northern Italy during medieval times was the home of a dialect bundle that had as much in common with Occitan (and maybe Arpitan) as with the language spoken in Toscana, which through Dante Alighieri and some other notable authors became the model for Standard Italian. I heard some Ligurian a few days ago and now Lombard, and I had more trouble understanding those than I had with Napulitano and Sicilianu.

ItalienskDramatik.JPG


Thanks for your intervention. She’s right, Lombard is mostly confined to super rural areas and not so lively as Veneto, Neapolitan, and Sicilian. Even Piedmontese is more widespread in rural areas than Lombard.
Occitan, on the other side, is highly widespread, spoken and understood even by small children in the Cuneo and Turin Alpine valleys, and luckily stronger than in Southern France! They’re doing a great job, with traditional dances, culture, traditions, food, and free language courses, even at local universities.
Occitan was also an official language of the 2006 Winter Olympic Games, together with Italian, English, and French.
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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby CaroleR » Mon Mar 13, 2023 8:50 pm

Iversen wrote:… a post where CaroleR not only referred to my wordlist method, but also gave the links to three videos about it from señor Ruben Quinones. I watched the middle one ASAP (and the others later), and it was actually quite good - but also eight years old, and in the meantime people have forgotten all about the format. That's life...
About a year ago, Quinones said that he still uses the method, particularly with words that don't stick. And many of the comments are fairly current, so it doesn't look like the format has been forgotten.

I've only been using it for a couple of weeks but I find I'm remembering many of the words when I come across them while reading. This is different from my Anki in-context words, whereby I find that I often don't remember the words when I see them out of that context. All that to say, I think your idea of learning the words by themselves seems to be working better for me, contrary to current advice.

Coincidentally, your Language Learning 4: Bilingual texts video from 12 years ago just popped up in my YouTube recommendations. Who knows, maybe we'll see an Iversen-Method(s) renaissance. :D
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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby Iversen » Mon Mar 13, 2023 9:09 pm

I have never heeded current advice, and that hasn't harmed me. My teachers in school must have scratched their heads because that that damned kid who didn't do as they said but nevertheless passed all the relevant exams. I may have been a bad example for my classmates and (later) co-students.

The old video you found is part of a Youtube presence which I decided to end - mostly because I couldn't stand watching myself speak, but the thing that finally settled the matter was that I made a series (or rather the first few parts of it) where I intended to speak about my paintings in the relevant languages plus English - and pratically nobody watched those videos. Why then make them??

All in all I made three series of videos, the first about my language learning methods, the second about my languages back then, the third about the paintings. It should be said that I had to learn some fragments of text by heart to make some of the videos in the second batch - and it's not as bad as reading aloud from a piece of paper or one of those sneaky tele-something-prompters, but in hindsight I still find that it was kind of cheating. And it took far too much time to learn those fragments and piece them together. However the rest of the non-English sections were improvised with just a few keywords and an outline for the talk on a piece of paper´. The one exception was my Scots rant, where I told viewers that I intended to read a text aloud which I had written earlier.

But when I got through the 'easy' languages and reached the weak ones the process took longer and longer time and became more and more stresssful. Then I thought that I could start from the easy end of the scale again and use my paintings as a topic- but as I said: practically nobody watched those videos. I did one more isolated video about either the first polyglot conference or the first gathering (I don't remember and don't really care) and then goodbye - that was the end of my career as a youtuber (apart from some recorded lectures, which are ghastly) and I haven't planned to return. And now I have also stopped doing lectures at gatherings etc. so there won't be any renaissance.

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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby Le Baron » Tue Mar 14, 2023 10:15 pm

I'm going to have a good look at this. Whilst I've got to be on okay terms with Anki and use it on my own terms, it's not ideal. For a lot of people it's either a tyrant or it is ignored because it is a tyrant and therefore does nothing.

I like lists, especially lists that can be consulted even when devices aren't switched on. I didn't actually know what the list methodology was. I like short lists though, rather than reams and reams of stuff. I assume I can use this system in that way? Creating targeted lists I can absorb and cycle?
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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby Iversen » Tue Mar 14, 2023 11:01 pm

I have written about my wordlists in my guide to language leaning here at Llorg version 3, but it's from 2015 or 2016 (the first version for HTLAL and the video I did once are even older) and may not cover all aspects of my current use. And it might be necessary to do modifications if they were to be used on languages with other writing systems - for instance I would probably include a column for transcriptions if I decided to learn an Asian language like Thai or Mandarin (though that's not going to happen in the near future).

When I start a new language I will be inundated with new words (or just words I want to reinforce) from my bilingual study texts, but the problem with these words is that they are spread all over the alphabet, and also that they occur in all kinds of morphological forms. I prefer to quote them in the canonical forms (infinitives of verbs, nominative singular of nouns and adjectives) and that of course means that I can't just import the wordforms from my texts directly into the lists - I have to check many of them in a dictionary which takes time. However it would be silly to just quote the canonical forms if I didn't also know how to inflect them - my green grammar sheets play an important role there. So the idea that you just find some words somewhere and write them directly into a wordlist does not really reflect the reality.

Later on, when the onslaught of new words has abated, I spend more and more of my time on wordlists based directly on dictionaries, where I of course mostly get the canonical forms served - so here it's even more important also to do practical exercises to make sure that I also can inflect them. The dictionaries often give examples, including idiomatic espressions whose meaning can be quite unpredictable. Here the narrow columns in my standard formatIcan be a problem so in some cases I have made special wordlists with wider columns where I only quote expressions (of limited length of course, not whole novels), and recently I started to make Polish wordlists only for verbal pairs (imperfective and perfective) because I noticed that I knew relatively few of those. As for thematic lists - I'm sceptical because you may mix up the items if you get a long list with just one kind of items. Here you can compare with for instance field guides for birds, where each species is described in detail with a photo - and even then it can be hard to keep them apart. To memorize words from a wordlist you just have the translations and the associations you can create yourself on the fly so 2-3 words from each word family is enough. One reason that I have a problem with long Slavic words that start with prefixes could be that the all look pretty much the same ..

I have also experimented with different repetition techniques. I normally just do one repetition round, and the normal format is that I copy the translations block by block to a new sheet - and yes, I can see then original words when I do this - and then I have to recall all the original words in each block in one go. But with wordlists based on texts I now often just read the original text acribically through and check that there isn't one single word whose meaning I don't remember - otherwise I look it up or invent 'memory hooks' or whatever to make absolutely sure that it stays in my memory. But all in all my wordlists have become an indispensable tool for me, and because I just need a bilingual text and/or a dictionary, some paper and ballpoint pens in at least two colours I can do them everywhere and at all times. I can even listen to music while I do them. And of course you can make short wordlists, but my personal experience is that I start to remember the words much more easily after a quarter of an hour or so - especially when the words are taking directly from a dictionary so that I don't have to fiddle around in the book to find them.

GR: Από πρόσφατα, ασχολούμαι κυρίως με τη Δημοτική. Είχα πολλές σελίδες με νέες λέξεις στο περιθώριο, και τώρα τις μετέφερα σε μια λίστα λέξεων με περίπου 200 λέξεις - και μετά πρόσθεσα άλλες περίπου 100 λέξεις από το λεξικό. Η ανάγνωση του οδηγού για τη Ρόδο προχωρά σιγά-σιγά γιατί πιάνω το βιβλίο μόνο όταν ήδη υστάζω. Είναι πιθανό να επιλέξω να το διαβάσω στην πολυθρόνα μου, και μετά μάλλον να το τελειώσω σε μια ώρα.

Greek wordlist.jpg


PS I just noticed that this thread now has reached 200 pages, which means that at the end of the present page it will also have reached a length of 2000 posts.
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