Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

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Iversen
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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby Iversen » Mon Dec 04, 2017 10:07 pm

vonPeterhof wrote:На самом деле английский перевод был ближе. Может быть в словарях есть форма несовершенного вида засекать? В любом случае, тут предполагается значение "to pinpoint" или "to spot", так что "to sight" в принципе подходит.


RU: Благодаря встроенному динамику von Peterburg я теперь также предпочитаю английский перевод!

EN: As I wrote in the nerd's thread a few moments ago: "when your goodnight reading the last three nights has been "Quechua für Peru-Reisende" in German from Kauderwelsch, "L'Albanais de poche" in French from Assimil and "Θεσσαλονίκη - Σύντομος Τουριστικός Οδιγός" in Greek from Μαλλιάρης Παιδεία. I have been on a family visit since Friday, and there is one think more to report, namely that my mothers hornbeam tree has been proven innocent in the case about disturbances to satellite TV reception. We found out that the guilty part was her golden rain (laburnum), which without permission has evolved from a bush into a sizeable tree ... and it stands precisely on the line from her parabola to the Astra satellite complex. So after some judicial pruning we can now watch German TV from somewhere between 40 and 50 TV stations. But it seems that almost all the stations in other languages like Spanish, Dutch, French and Chinese have been closed down. I have looked the fate of one of them (BVN in Dutch/Flemish) up on the internet and..

DU: "Belangrijk bericht inzake de doorgifte van BVN TV. BVN is verhuisd naar een andere transponder op de Astra 1L satelliet. Het signaal van BVN wordt sinds 1 augustus 2014 doorgegeven op de nieuwe transponder 48. Na 21 september 2014 is BVN niet meer te ontvangen via de huidige transponder 105."

So to get those channels back I'll have to make a new channel search and reestablish the favorite lists etc etc. (and weed out the 117 variants of WDR or NDR). Life was easier in the old days where we just had ARD and ZDF and NDR.

As mentioned about I have been reading a book about Quechua. It seems to be a mostly agglutinative language, and the author is adamant that

GE: "Wie in vielen Indianersprachen, gibt es auch in Quechua nicht die Deklination (Beugung der Hauptwörter). (...) Den Beugungen liegt in Quechua ein gänzlich anderen Grammatikverständnis zugrunde: Grammatische Bezüge von Wörtern innerhalb eines Satzes werden mit bestimmte Suffixen ausgedrückt (...). Dabei handelt es sich meist um Besitzanzeigen und Richtungsangaben, die mit einer Deklination, wie sie etwa der Lateiner erwartet, nichts, gar nichts zu tun haben!"

Well, I understand the importance of keeping German learners from blindly applying the rules and concepts of German on a very different language like Quecha, but is it really true that the affixes of agglutinative languages and flexives of inflected languages absoluty nothing have in common? The flexives of a language like German have two characteristics: they differ according to things like gender, and there is only a limited number of them. Quechua has a lot of different affixes, and they mostly remain unchanged (although there is at least one whose form changes according to whether the preceding sound is a vowel or a consonant ). But if you consider Finno-Ugrian languages they have they have lots of socalled cases with relatively constant endings (if you take vowel harmony into account), so they lie somewhere between German and Quechua.

One thing more: many if not most of the affixes of Quechua have different roles, so even if you see them as items with a meaning that meaning will be somewhat fluid and heterogenous. The same could be said about cases, although the picture is blurred because of things like prepositions which a connected with specific cases. The Dative in German has something to do with giving something to somebody in a very wide sense, and once upon a time there must have been a semantically motivated reason for using it in each and every of its applications - but right now it is difficult to see why "mit" should be followed by something in the dative case. Another language may use other cases in situations which we would see as quite parallel to those occurring in a German sentence, and some languages actually have cases which German hasn't got. But when I read about the many roles of for instance Quechua "-ta" the picture is just as confusing. It is characterized as a "Richtungsangabe" (indication of direction), but the examples show that this includes situations where the point is some action having a goal or something having a purpose - like in this example:

warmi mikuy-ta yanu-n
Frau Essen kochen-sie
Die Frau kocht das Essen

So if you say that -ta has a meaning, then you also have to admit that this meaning is fairly hard to pin down. And of course learners can't use their experiences from German to help them with this task(-ta), but it still ressembles the problems a learner has to deal with when getting a sense of what the dative or accusative covers in German. The main difference is that the actual endings in German are more complex, but only have to be learnt for a small number of gramamtical cases. The affixes of Quechua are more numerous, but don't vary much.

This reminds me of a self-inflicted problem in the generative linguistics of Chomsky and his followers. In "Syntactic Structures" from 1957 he compared three types of grammar: a finite state grammar, a constituent structure grammar and his own transformational generative grammar. Most of the good things he said came with the realization that some ambiguous phrases could be derived from two different phrases by using some appropriate transformations - so one surface formulation could hide two different deep structures, and then you could of course use the same idea on cases that weren't ambiguous. Unfortunately he retained the constituent structure grammar of the mid 50s as part of his theory and just added the transformations. In this way he brought some unnecessary assumptions into his systems, like a preference for binary divisions including the notorious NP + VP and the idea that semantics should be introduced as late as possible. And he and people inspired by him have been battling with the consequences of these choices forever since.

There are competing theories. My own preference is to say that things like words and flexives are the bread and butter of language, and grammar is just the description of observable regularities in their behaviour. Or in other words: where Chomsky's grammatical rules almost have the status of Platonian ideas I just see them as practical rules of thumb. And this implies that the meaning is there from the beginning (although I agree with Chomsky that we should base the formulations of grammatical rules on hardcore facts that actually can be observed and not on loose semantic talk). It also implies that there may be different kinds of descriptions at play in the analysis. S = NP VP is not a viable startingpoint for the analyses of most phrases in Indoeuropean languages. In most such phrases the finite verb organizes whatever roles the other elements can have, and there is nothing that dictates that those roles should be organized in a binary way. So what about NP VP? Well, if you have a phrase without a finite verb it may still have a structure where two elements are connected in some way (in the Danish grammatical tradition we have traditionally call it a "nexus"). There is for instance such a structure that involves "this" and "nonsense" in both the formulations "this is nonsense" and "I call this nonsense", and you could say that it is the same relation that exists between a subject and the verb - but there is no reason to do so unless the verb is a copula verb (or the void left by its absence in Russian). And for ergative languages the NP VP formula just serves to make the analysis more complicated.

So, to revert to Quechua and German: both the consequences of using a certain affix in Quechua and those caused by using a certain case ending in German should be described in terms that refer to observable behaviours, but in at the bottom of the matter it is a question of using words and affixes/endings with more or less vague semantics that tend to be used in some typical patterns. There is no grammar without a halo of semantical 'dark matter'.

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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby Iversen » Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:43 am

... and now it's time for the annual crash course in the confection of braided Christmas hearts! As I write each and every year I'm not terribly fond of Christmas - especially not when it starts mid November when a fat bearded man in a red costume arrives by boat to my town to urge its inhabitants to start a senseless shopping spree which some hope will last until Christmas eve (in Denmark christmas gifts are distributed the 24. to silence the kids). But as I also always emphasize there is one thing I like about christmas, and that's the 280 or so plaided hearts which decorate the walls in my mother's house (my sister and I went mad in the early noughties). In my own humble abode the only sign of the impending sinister christmas will be that I put a christmas nausea painting on a wall. I certainly do expect to show some of these paintings in this thread, though not today because now you are going to learn how to make hearts. Au travail !

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LAT: Primo dua rectangula de charta cum coloribus inequalibus configenda sunt, utraque exempli gratia de magnitudine 4 x 12 centimetribus. Utramque plica in medio. Si latum frontalem et latum postiorem chartae habent, latus posterior externe essere debet quia cum liniis auxiliaribus instructurus sit. In fine prope sino utriusque charta plicata lineam ducare 4 centrimetra ab sino, quadratum ita facens. In quadrato isto omnes lineas ducendi sunt (et omnes sectiones): omnes lineae de sino ad linia ad 4 centrimetra ducere debent, et in plurisque cordibus lineae de utraque charta eaedem sunt (et partes duas in modo quod axis symmetriae inter eas est - vide imaginem supra). Cordes de aspecto diverso nempe linias diversas requierant, et possibile est cordes cum triangulis, circulis aut exempla obscura alia facere cum lineis astutis - sed istae pars cursi prevecti sunt. Omnis lineis factis, cum forfice chartas praeter lineas secare.

Nunc chartas vertere ita ut latus frontalis utriusque charta ostentatur et in positione de angulo 90˚ ponere. In utraque charta nunc lacinia duplica sunt cum sino inter strata. Laciniam ad lato chartae una per lacinias altrius charta ducere, alternis PER laciniam et laciniam circumplectens usque ad finam chartae. Pergere cum secunda lacinia, sed in ordo inverso: si primo PER primam lacianam secundae chartae lacinia de charta prima duxis, nunc prima circumplica laciniam, insera in secundam et cetera et cetera usque ad finem chartae, et ita pergere cum omnis liciniis, deinde ansam adjungere. Ita facturatae sunt cordes plicatae!

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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby Iversen » Fri Dec 08, 2017 10:51 pm

I have been working on the last movement of a certain symphony today and have now finished all but the least dozen pages (and of course I haven't done the piano version of that movement yet). It should be in the bag sometime next week, and then I can forget about composition again ... until I get tempted to rescue some of the later works in my production. The reason that I'm more satisfied with the first 30-40 or so works is quite simple: I revised them at the same time I wrote the last 20 or so opusses OR I wrote them for some specific purpose and made sure they were OK from the start. But when I should have revised those last works I had stopped composing music. And that's why they are as bad as they are and it takes forever to save them.

I have also spent time shuffling items around from file to file in my music collection. For instance I had Kabalevsky's Cello concerto no. 2 and "To Khamogelo tis Tzokontas" (Mona Lisa's smile, also known as "Το Χαμόγελο της Τζοκόντας") by Hadjidakis in one file. Not good, so I moved things around and ended up with Gretchaninov's Suite op. 86 for cello and orchestra coupled to Kabalevsky's cello concerto in one file and Hadjidakis was coupled up with Theodorakis and Skalkotttas, who also are Greek composers. The problem is that sometimes you need to involve several files in such an operation to make things look nice, but I have now weeded out most cases where the works of a major composer are spread all over the place or where some work just doesn't belong in company with something else - no names mentioned..

So now you expect me to write that I didn't have time to study.. Well almost, but I did manage to read some Romanian science articles from the site descopera.ro as my goodnight reading yesterday, so my conscience may be slightly tainted, but it isn't pitch black as it would have been if I had done nothing in any other languages than Danish and English. Actually I also have watched the German quiz "Wer weiß doch so was" several days in a row. And a few times I do feel the urge to point to myself when I know or can guess an answer - like when there was a question about an animal which had "villosus" as its scientific species name .. and one of the three possible answers had something to do with being hairy. Or today when the question involved the words "penumbra" and "antumbra" and one of the three alternatives referred to solar eclipses ("-umbra" of course means 'shadow'). But mostly you have as little chance of knowing the answer as the participants.

GE: Es gibt jedoch ein Element in der Sendung, das ich völlig törich finde, nämlich der sogenannte "Publikumsjoker". Einmal pro Sendung darf jedes Team jemandem aus der Hälfte der Anwesende, die hinter ihm sitzt, das Recht eine Frage zu antworten überlassen. Leider ist die Antwort von dieser Person dann verbindlich, auch wenn er oder sie ein Idiot is, der noch weniger weiß als die Teammitglieder und nur raten kann. Warum dann aufstehen? Und damit sind die Kalamitäten nicht vorüber, weil auch die Schwachköpfe für ihren Mut gelobt werden. Ahem ... Mut ?? Seit wann ist das Mut ein Trottel zu sein im öffentlich-rechtlichen Fernsehen ein positives merkmal geworden? O tempora o mores...

RO: Acum aș putea menționa mai multe articole de Descopera, dar aș vrea doar să menționez unul singur, Acum aș putea menționa mai multe articole de la Descopera, dar doar menționăm un singur, și anume că acum este posibil să oprim lumina timp de până la un minut. Trimițeau un fascicul de lumină într-un cristal care are caracteristica că suprafața sa exterioară devine opacă atunci când este iluminată cu lumină laser. Și când acel fascicul de lumină va ieși din nou, probabil că este un pic morocănos!

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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby Jar-Ptitsa » Sat Dec 09, 2017 2:23 pm

Iversen wrote:... and now it's time for the annual crash course in the confection of plaided Christmas hearts! As I write each and every year I'm not terribly fond of Christmas - especially not when it starts mid November when a fat bearded man in a red costume arrives by boat to my town to urge its inhabitants to start a senseless shopping spree which some hope will last until Christmas eve (in Denmark christmas gifts are distributed the 24. to silence the kids). But as I also always emphasize there is one thing I like about christmas, and that's the 280 or so plaided hearts which decorate the walls in my mother's house (my sister and I went mad in the early noughties). In my own humble abode the only sign of the impending sinister christmas will be that I put a christmas nausea painting on a wall. I certainly do expect to show some of these paintings in this thread, though not today because now you are going to learn how to make hearts. Au travail !

Crash-course-in-christmas-hearts-folding.jpg

LAT: Primo dua rectangula de charta cum coloribus inequalibus configenda sunt, utraque exempli gratia de magnitudine 4 x 12 centimetribus. Utramque plica in medio. Si latum frontalem et latum postiorem chartae habent, latus posterior externe essere debet quia cum liniis auxiliaribus instructurus sit. In fine prope sino utriusque charta plicata lineam ducare 4 centrimetra ab sino, quadratum ita facens. In quadrato isto omnes lineas ducendi sunt (et omnes sectiones): omnes lineae de sino ad linia ad 4 centrimetra ducere debent, et in plurisque cordibus lineae de utraque charta eaedem sunt (et partes duas in modo quod axis symmetriae inter eas est - vide imaginem supra). Cordes de aspecto diverso nempe linias diversas requierant, et possibile est cordes cum triangulis, circulis aut exempla obscura alia facere cum lineis astutis - sed istae pars cursi prevecti sunt. Omnis lineis factis, cum forfice chartas praeter lineas secare.

Nunc chartas vertere ita ut latus frontalis utriusque charta ostentatur et in positione de angulo 90˚ ponere. In utraque charta nunc lacinia duplica sunt cum sino inter strata. Laciniam ad lato chartae una per lacinias altrius charta ducere, alternis PER laciniam et laciniam circumplectens usque ad finam chartae. Pergere cum secunda lacinia, sed in ordo inverso: si primo PER primam lacianam secundae chartae lacinia de charta prima duxis, nunc prima circumplica laciniam, insera in secundam et cetera et cetera usque ad finem chartae, et ita pergere cum omnis liciniis, deinde ansam adjungere. Ita facturatae sunt cordes plicatae!

Xmas-hearts-F2250a05.jpg


I remember those wonderful Christmas hearts. I made some when you posted it before and I posted the pictures, but it was a long time ago and I haven't got them now. I'd like to make more this year.
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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby Iversen » Sun Dec 10, 2017 9:21 pm

Welcome back Jar-Ptitsa.

I have not much to tell here today, since I have spent the weekend on finishing a certain symphony, but now the job is done - maybe not at a sublime level, but I'm basically satisfied with the result. But midnight is approaching and I have things to do so... I think I'll do some easy reading tonight. I found a small book about French cathedrals while putting Descartes back on the shelf, so that hopefully that will keep me awake for an hour or so. By the way..

FR: Un fait peu connu: L'âge d'or des cathedrales en France a finit au moment où la plus extravagante d'entre elles a croulé. Comme le dit la Wikipédia française: "Elle possède le plus haut chœur au monde (48,50 m). De 1569 à 1573 la cathédrale est avec sa tour de 153 mètres la plus haute construction humaine du monde. Terminée, elle serait la plus grande cathédrale gothique de France devant celle d'Amiens". Et que'est-ce qu'il est arrivé le 30 avril 1573: CRASHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! Aujourd'hui seuls le transept et le choeur existent, mais ils sont assez beaux pour figurer sur la liste de la patrimoine de UNESCO. L'ironie c'est que selon un article que j'ai lu quelque part le désastre aurait pu être évité puisque on avait déjà inventé un plan pour la construction de cathedrales gothiques qui aurait produit des bâtiments plus solides - mais hélàs, on l'a utilisé seulement pour le cathédrale de Bourges .. et après tout-le-monde a apparemment oublié comment et pourquoi on s'est permis cette divagation isolée de la tradition, et le résultat: BOUMMM! Le cathédrale de Utrecht au Pays-Bas a aussi fait BOUMMM!!

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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby Iversen » Mon Dec 11, 2017 9:07 am

LAT: Hoc mane cogitatio mihi venit molesta: quid facet lector textum mei de cordibus plectatibus videns se sermonem latinam non potens sit? Probabiliter in instrumentum translationis Gogglei ponet ut sciret quid scripsi ego ... et tunc quisquillias videt:

egomet: Primo dua rectangula de charta cum coloribus inequalibus configenda sunt, utraque exempli gratia de magnitudine 4 x 12 centimetribus. Utramque plica in medio. Si latum frontalem et latum postiorem chartae habent, latus posterior externe essere debet quia cum liniis auxiliaribus instructurus sit. In fine prope sino utriusque charta plicata lineam ducare 4 centrimetra ab sino, quadratum ita facens.

GT: First two small rectangles of paper colors are unequal configenda, for example, both of size 4 x 12 centimeters. Each fold in the middle. If a broad forehead and wide postiorem messages have external side, the latter must be carried with the auxiliary instruct. At the end of the line is drawn close to allow both folded paper 4 by allowing centrimetra, thus becoming square..

Bone, ego certe menda feci, sed mehercle non nugas scripsi. Exempli gratia hodie vidi quod pro "latus posterior" melius sit vocabulum "clunes", sed in contexto "wide posterior" (approx. 'fat bum') non ut translatio valida expressionis mei valet. Et clarus est in texto mei quod charta prope sino et non prope linea plexa sit.

Quid faciet GT si eam textum autenticum datur? Quid de contra Catalinam sermonem Ciceroni faciet? Videbimus infra:

Cicero: quo usque tandem abutere, Catilina, patientia nostra? quam diu etiam furor iste tuus nos eludet? quem ad finem sese effrenata iactabit audacia? nihilne te nocturnum praesidium Palati, nihil urbis vigiliae, nihil timor populi, nihil concursus bonorum omnium, nihil hic munitissimus habendi senatus locus, nihil horum ora voltusque moverunt? patere tua consilia non sentis, constrictam iam horum omnium scientia teneri coniurationem tuam non vides?

GT: How long will you abuse our patience, Catiline? How long is that madness of yours still to mock To what end will your unbridled audacity of yours? Do not the nightly guard of the Palatine, patrols of the city, nor the fear of the people, does not the gathering of all good men, does not this most fortified place of holding the senate, the standard of the faces and expressions of none of these things? Do not you feel that your plans are, do you not see that your conspiracy is already held by the knowledge of all these things?

Infeliciter, hoc translatio satis bona est, id quod indiceret quod textum meum facte quisquillia sit. Sed certe, hoc textum Ciceronis inter texta cum translationem humanum de Googleo inhibitum ut lingvam latinam perdiscere est, et ergo iam sciat programma quae intentio autoris sit. Cum alio texto non tam bone aget, hic textum ex Ephemeridibus:

A. Novocomensis: Collisio in via Rheno-Vestfalia Occidentali hodie paucum ante tempus locum habuit. Hamaxostici in numero duorum conflixerunt: alter merces, alter CL homines ferebat. Primum, vulnerati L treno inesse putati sunt, sed, postquam flammarum vigilantes ad locum venerunt, numerus offensorum maxime deminuit: V homines in conflictu vulnerati sunt nemoque eorum graviter. Coitionis rationes nondum novimus: nam, tramini merces ferenti non in ferrivia hac, ubi tantum tramina ad homines transduncendos semovere possunt, manendum erat. Ita dixit legata ferriviaria apud diurnario “Die Welt”.

GT: The collision Rhine-Westphalia in the west today, a short time before the war. Hamaxostici fought in the number of two, one reward, the other 150 are permitted. First, the wounded were taken within 50 treno, but after watching the flame arrived at a number offensorum most of his friends, 5 people were wounded in the conflict and no one of them seriously.The attraction reasons not yet know for now, on a train carrying cargo that is not Ferrivia where only tramina to humans transduncendos natives can stay there. The envoy said that the train journalists in "Die Welt".

LA: Post hoc, conscientia mea melior est - se etiam autoribus Ephemeridium tale abutantur ego in bono convivio sum.

My translation: [a train] collision took place in Western North Rhine-Westphalia today 'before time' (presumably in the morning). Two trains (literally "trains two by number") collided, one carrying goods, the other 150 persons. At first it was assumed that 50 persons had been wounded in the train, but after the firemen had come, the number of wounded fell drastically: [only] five persons were hurt in the collision, and none of them seriously. We don't yet know the reasons for the crash, since freight trains shouldn't be (literally: stay) in this [stretch of] railway, where so many lines meant for carrying people can run. This was stated by a railway spokesperson to the newspaper "Die Welt".

EN: PS: "transduncendos" should probably be "transducendos", and I'm also slightly puzzled by the word "semovere" and the use of "tempus" in the first sentence. I have looked "ante tempus" up in several sources, including glosbe, whose examples mostly point to a meaning like "premature(ly)", and a Spanish Glosario Juridico, where I found the explanation "Ante tempus: Antes del momento deseado". But since train collisions rarely happen at a previously chosen moment, these explanations don't really help us here. So unless somebody knows the correct meaning I guess that the accident simply took place in the early morning.

- - - -

In spite of appearances I do recognize the plight of those who didn't understand every single word of my Latin explanation from Wednesday, so to help them also to make braided hearts I would like to offer a translation ... into Afrikaans. Why Afrikaans? Well, simply because I haven't written anything in that language for some time now, and I think they might need something christmassy to cover the fact that Christmas falls squarely in the middle of their summertime:

AF: Eerstens moet twee reghoeke papier van verskillende kleure gemaak word, byvoorbeeld grootte 4 x 12 sentimeter. Maak vou aan albei in die middel. As die papier voor- en agterkant het, moet die agterkant uitwaarts wees omdat dit met gidse linieën toegerus sal wees. Aan die einde naby die vou op albei papierbakkies 'n lyn 4 sentimeter van die vou trekken sodat 'n kwadraat verskyn. In hierdie vierkant word alle lyne geteken (en sny alle snitte) [PS: afgesien van die halfsirkel, natuurlik - ek het die vergeet in die Latynse verduideliking te noem. Ek het ook vergeet om Romeinse syfers te gebruik]. Harte van verskillende voorkoms vereis natuurlik verskillende lyne, en dit is moontlik om harte met driehoeke, sirkels en ander snaakse vorms te maak, maar dit is deel van die gevorderde kursus. Wanneer al die lyne geteken word, sny die lyne met 'n skêr.

Draai nou die papiere sodat die voorkant van die albei uitwaarts uitkyk en die en 90˚ hoeke plaas. Op albei stukkies papier is nou dubbele stroke gekoppeld met vou. Nou die strook van papier 1 beweeg deur die stroke op papier 2, afwisselend DEUR 'n strook en ROND OM die volgende strook tot die papier sy einde. Ga voort met die volgende strook, maar in omgekeerde volgorde: As jy die strook eerste vanaf papier 1 deur die eerste strook op papier 2 gelei het, lei die nou eers buite die strook en deur die volgende ens. ens. tot die papier sy einde, en ga dus voort met die res van die stroke. Daarna [Sny langs die halfsirkels] en voeg 'n hak by. So word gevlegde harte gemaakt!

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Iversen
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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby Iversen » Wed Dec 13, 2017 11:52 pm

A few days ago I mentioned a book about French cathedrals which I intended to use as goodnight reading. I had seen it when I returned Descartes to his place on the shelf, but when I later returned to pick up the cathedral book I couldn't find it. At this point I should probably mention that I use a type of open shelves where you also can put books into the backside, and whereas my dictionaries and grammars and bird books and travel guides and a couple of multivolume history books have been allotted place on the front side (vide video) literature and philosophy and other books that should been kicked out long ago are relegated to the backside of those shelfes. And during the dark hours it is difficult to read their titles.

I did later find the book about cathedrals, but chose to place it in the handbag I carry during travels, and there it awaits my next excursion out of town. But I did nevertheless get a severe dose of French, since a random remark in Tarvos' log inspired me to take a closer look at the lore surrounding the later kings of the house Capet (basically those that ruled during the Centenary war with England) - more about that later. And as goodnight reading I looked through a stack of old used Russian study texts and found one that deserved a reread.

The text describes king David IV 'The builder' of Georgia, and I'll also write a few comments about him below, but first I might be relevant to mention that the printout is so old that it used the format I call 'interspersed', since each text in the target language immediately is followed by its translation into Danish. To make these bilingual printouts I used a quirk of the combination of Google translate and MSWord, namely that if you copied a passage from a translated page to a blank page 'as text' then you got precisely the sequence I mentioned, where each foreign sentence was followed by its translation. OK, there was some confusion with for instance ordinary numbers and abbreviations because of the dots, but I also painstakingly gave all Danish sentences another colour to separate them from the original sentences in Russian.

Was that enough? No, because those Danish sentences break my reading rhythm by attracting my attention at the expense of the Russian sentences. It might have functioned long ago where I had to work my way slowly through each sentence almost word by word, but now where I basically can read the Russian text without help they function like the hurdles in a hurdle race. I have no such problems with the side by side format, and the even the interlinear format wouldn't have been as downright irritating - but luckily I dropped this last format long ago because it was even more time consuming - and sometimes impossible - to make interlinear bilingual texts with sensible line shifts than to colour all sentences in Danish in an interspersed layout.

I'll comment on the topic of Capetian French kings separately and instead turn my attention to the formidable king დავით IV აღმაშენებელი of Georgia - but unfortunately I can't do it in Kartuli - I have to do it in my poor rambling Russian..

RU: Дэвид пришел к власти переворотом против отца Георгия II, который, по-видимому, не смог организовать сопротивление вторжению против сельджукидых, которые вторглись в страну. Он был на этот раз только 16 лет, но необычайно энергичен. Ему также повезло, когда умер султан сельджукидов, после этого между его сыновьями вспыхнула борьба за власть, что сильно ослабило их империю. Но это был великое достижение Давида, что ему удалось превратить разделение власти в стране, чтобы сделать его более боевым, - но и центр культуры. Нужно было кататься на ограничить влияние консервативного бояров, которые назывались "азнауры" (слово, которое заставляет меня думать о могучих сказочных животных с большими рогами в лбу из 'Starwars'). Вместо этого ближайший советник короля стал более влиятельным, и он обычно был ученым монахом, который был не из выдающейся семьи. Этот человек имел невыразимое название "мцигнобатыхыцес" - я не знаю, что значит это, а звучит очень грузинский.. Давид также был блестящим военачальником. В 1121 году его армия разгромила в поля Дидгори вражеской армией, которая, согласно современным оценкам, была в четыре раза больше. Давид умер в 1125 году, и, как хотел, был похоронен под камнем в главных сторожевых стенах монастыря Гелати ... и я был там в 2000 году (смотрите рисунок ниже).

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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby Iversen » Thu Dec 14, 2017 5:16 pm

FR: Bon ben, plus d'excuses, maintenant il faut jeter un coup d'oeil sur les Capetiens et pour les motivations pour la guerre de cent ans qui eu lieu de 1337 à 1453 (donc plus de cent ans).

D'abord il faut constater que toute la partie occidentale de l'Hexagone jusque Navarre au sud des Pyrenées avait des liens aussi fortes avec l'Angleterre qu'avec le roi des français. Les rois Anglais étaient en principe des Normands déplacés, et depuis que Eléanore d'Aquitaine (ou Guyenne) avait abandonné son époux ennuyeux et maladroit, Louis VII de France, et épousé roi Henri II d'Angleterre (de la dynastie nommée Plantagenet) en 1154 les Anglais avait regardé l'Aquitaine comme leur territoire - mais là ils étaient en principe des vassaux du roi français, ce qui était un peu pénible pour eux. Pour compliquer les choses encore un peu, la reine du désastreux roi Edward II d'Angleterre, Isabelle, était la fille de Philippe IV de France et Jeanne I de Navarre, et son fils Edward III avait donc des droits de succession réels sur la thrône française si jamais la ligne directe des Capétien serait interrompue. En outre l'Angleterre aussi un influence considérable de charactère économique le long de toute la Manche et la mer Atlantique, de Brugge par Cherbourg jusqu'à Brest, et de là jusqu'à Navarre. De l'autre côté, la France était beaucoup plus peuplée que l'Angleterre.

Donc il n'est pas si étrange que ça si on a eu une guerre prolongée entre les deux maisons royales et les pays qu'ils ons gouverné.

Pour comprendre le reste il convient de regarder ce tableau (tiré de Wikipédia) des rois de France et quelques autres personnages:

Maison-Capet.jpg
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Philippe IV "le Bel" (1285-1314) était un roi fort et sans scrupules - c'est celui qui a fait brûler les Templiers pour se débarasser du coup d'une partie considérable de ses dettes et d'un groupe de personnages qui seulement devaient obéir au pape. Mais comme prévu du grand-maître monsieur de Molay sur le bûcher, le roi lui-même est mort moins d'un ans après l'épisode incendiaire, et son successeur Louis X dit "le hutin" n'était pas un homme de la même taille. Le sobriquet veut dire "querelleur" ou "opiniâtre", mais à vrais dire on l'a laisse maugréer tant qu'il voulait sans écouter ce qu'il disait - comme son père l'avait fait. Et Louis est mort en 1314 sans un héritier vivant, mais la reine était enceinte. Hélas, le nouveau-né, connu comme Jean I "le posthume" (ou "le jeune") est mort après 5 jours seulement. Et dans cette situation son oncle, le prince Philippe - qui avait aussi géré les choses pendant la grossesse de la reine - a pris le pouvoir comme Philippe V le long. Il est mort en 1322, et son frère Charles IV "le Bel" a occupé le trône jusqu'à 1328, où il est mort sans se laisser des héritiers.

Pendant son règne une chose importante seulement s'est produit, mais de conséquences assez lourdes: un petit conflit a éscalé sur les terres de Gascogne (Guyenne) concernant la forteresse Saint-Sardos, qui appartenait aux français. Les anglais (qui controlaient Guyenne) ont perdu de manière piteuse, et le roi Edward II d'Angleterre a fait une faute grave: puisqu'il était tellement éprisé de son amant Hugues le Despenser le Jeune, qui a son côté avait fait tout ce qu'il pouvait pour nuir à la reine Isabelle, soeur du roi français (allant même a arrêter ses dames d'honneur), la vie conjugale entre Edward et Isabelle est plus que froide, mais il a tout-de-même eu l'idée risquée d'envoyer Isabelle à Charles pour négocier. Haha, elle a d'abord convaincu Edward a envoyer aussi le petit prince Edward, héritier du trone anglaise, et alors Isabelle est revenu à Angleterre avec son amant à elle, un certain Mortimer, où ils ont pris le pouvoir, fait éventrer et écarteler Mr. Despenser et emprisonner et (probablement) tuer Edward. Eh, à vrai dire, personne ne sait exactement ce qui s'est passé avec Edward, et certains historiens modernes ont tenté de soutenir qu'il soit échappé vive, mais soyons réalistes: cela est fort douteux. Il est plus vraisemblable qu'il a été tué, quoique peut-ètre pas avec un tisonnier chauffé au rouge dans son cul comme le veut la tradition.

Avec la mort de Charles il y a donc un problème puisque c'est le nouveau roi Edward III d'Angleterre qui avait la relation plus proche au feu roi, étant fils de sa soeur ainée Isabelle, et en principe il y avait encore un prétendant à considérer, à savoir Charles II de Navarre (dit "le Mauvais"), petit-fils du roi Hutin, mais par Jeanne II, reine de Navarre, qu'on déjà avait privée de ses droits de succession à la trône de France à l'occasion de la prise du pouvoir de Philippe le Long et avec une référence à la vieille loi dite salique - mais du moins contre une indemnisation. Une fois de plus on a invoqué cette loi pour éviter ces deux prétendants, et comme on le voit celui qui a profité de la situation fut le neveu de Philippe IV le Bel, Philippe VI, que ses sujets avec raison ont doté du sobriquet "le Fortuné". Avec lui commence la dynastie de Valois (et la guerre de cent ans) ... mais c'est une toute autre histoire, qu'il faut raconter une autre fois.
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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby Jar-Ptitsa » Fri Dec 15, 2017 4:56 pm

Iversen wrote:Welcome back Jar-Ptitsa.



Thank you.

I made some of your decoration hearts yesterday with some paper with some pictures of rabbits and then dogs. I will upload a picture soon.
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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby tarvos » Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:36 pm

Ah oui, les Capétiens. Comme tu as déjà signalé, j'étais en train de lire un série de tômes qui s'appelle "Les rois maudits" (d'après la malédiction de Jacques de Molay). Ce série raconte l'histoire des Capétiens et les Valois (qui les ont succédés), mais d'une forme plus dramatique (lorsqu'il s'agit de fiction, certains détails ont été exagérés, bien que Maurice Druon, l'auteur, nous ait fourni des annexes historiques bien compréhensifs). Je n'ose pas imaginer que tu t'amuseras avec son oeuvre (encore moins sachant qu'il était un membre notable de l'Académie Française).

D'ailleurs j'ai pris l'habitude de faire le contraire - en lisant ton journal, des fois je me mets à chercher sur Wikipedia des petits morceaux d'infos sur ce que tu as écrit. Surtout s'il s'agit de quelque chose de scientifique.
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