Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

[Iversen]

The thread in question is definitely acrimoneous in some places, and not only in the section commenting on my comment in the panel discussion. And Sprachprofi is as usally a lone sensible voice clamoring in the wilderness.

I do find the choice to learn a lot of languages to a low level defensible as long as you don't pretend that you are an expert in them. But I would be worried if they (apart from your native language and maybe one of two others) all were at such a level. Actually I don't seen whether Moses McCormick (laoshu) still pursues his goal of learning as many languages as possible at the depense of depth, but if that's his choice then it's fine with me.

Personally I have chosen to prioritize being able to write in a substantial number of languages instead of trying to learn to speak them all fluently here and now. With my lifestyle I don't need to speak them here in Denmark, but I know that with a period in a suitable place I can speed up my thought processes to the point where I can start using them in conversations. During my first learning period, where I studied at a university with courses and all that, I had to learn to speak at an earlier time, but now the situation is different. Likewise I do want to see my languages get better, but I don't like to spend all my time Khatzumoto style on just one language, so they consequently have to develop somewhat more slowly.

And now for something completely different:

I woke up this morning after a dream where I saw a man working at a long table in a corridor. Suddenly he sees that the person working beside him is stone dead, and so are the others further away. He walks to the end of the corridor, and behind a screen he sees one more dead person sitting in an armchair, who is identified as Josef Stalin, and he decides to get out of there before security forces flood the place. He follows a route past (and sometimes between) long rows of fences made of wire mesh wrapped in clear plastic. Along the way there are workers putting up even more fences of this type, and he speak to some of them in Russian, sometimes arguing about whether he is allowed to walk through their workplace. Actually there isn't much speak in the dream, but whatever there is is in Russian.

At a certain point he finds a hole through the fence to the left and he steps through it, and then he finds himself in a bustling street. Across the street there is a large onion-shaped brick dome painted in a reddish colour, and this defines the scenery as Russian. And now for the first time I feel I get involved myself - I try to remember whether I actually have seen anything like during my trips to Russia, and I have to admit that I haven't (at this point the dream has clarly become lucid). The 'actor' followed from the air by my invisible self moves along the street to see what the town looks like, but soon after I wake up - at least being determined to remember the dream.

I generally don't have high thoughts about dream interpretation, but it is hard not to see this dream as an allegory over the theme of learning Russian.

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[Iversen]

PLATT: Ik hef nichs hier siet Middeweek schreven om dat ik wöör op Familiebesöök ahn Internettoegang. Ik hööf aver Fernseehn schaut, un de laatste Süündag vün iedere Maand hett NDR sien opstüns eenzige Programm op Platt, Hello Niedersachsen. Ik weet nich worüm een önner Programm "Buten un Binnen" op Hoogdüütsch is en "Hello Niedersachsen" op Platt - dit wöör mehr logisch de Prograammen in sien egen spraak te nömen, en "Hello Niedersachsen" wöör dann so wat wie "Hello Neddersassen" noemd. Dit Sünndag wöören de düutschen Karnevallen en Unesco sien Muddersprakendag op 't program (seht de Bild ünnen).

Studeeren is nich eenfach wieldat ek bün met mien Familie en ahn mien PC, aver ik höff enige ölle utprintete Texten as Godenacht-Lektuur leest, darünner Wikipedia sien Artikel vun Neutrinooszillatschoon op Platt. Ik bün froh dat 't sülke Artikels över wetenschap op Platt geeft - dit bewiest dat nich ölle Plattschnackers doofe ölle Törfgravers sünd. Un ik moet toegeven dat ik nich ölle Uutsagen drinne verstah, wie to'n Bispeel dit:

"Na dat Standardmodell hebbt Nuetrinos keen Masse un dermit sünners ok keen Massenünnerscheden. Bito schülln de blots as linkshannig Deelken opduken. Hebbt de neutrinos aver doch een Masse, as dat dör de Neutrinooszolatschoon bestätigt warrt, sünd ok rechtshannige Neutrinos möglich, de swacks Wesselwirken hett blots Influss op linkhshannige Neutrinodeelken, de rechtshannigen dorgegen weern blots vun de Gravitatschoon beinflusst".

Ik verstah dat 't of wenig Elektronenneutrino in de Eksperimenten hier op de Eerd funnen sünd, en dat de Wetenschoplers dit dörch Oszillatschoon (un domit implizit Typuswessel) verkloren, un wenn de Lüü seggen dat de Neutrinos dorför een Masse bruiken (wann ook bannig kleen) seeh ik uut de Gliekings da dit wohr is - voruutset dat die Gliekingen wohr sünd! Ik verstah aver gor nich waarom blots de linkshannige Neutrino-Deelken vun de zwacke kraft beinflusst warrt, de rechtshannigen nich.

AF: Ek het ook 'n artikel oor kwarks op Afrikaans gelees, maar dit bevat nie soortgelyke verrassings nie.

EN: Apart from that: if the TV Program in Low German from NDR hadn't mentioned the 'Mother tongue day' of Unesco, I wouldn't have noticed it. apparently it took place Februar 21 2018. Did anybody out there remember to celebrate it ??

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[jeff_lindqvist]

EN: Apart from that: if the TV Program in Low German from NDR hadn't mentioned the 'Mother tongue day' of Unesco, I wouldn't have noticed it. apparently it took place Februar 21 2018. Did anybody out there remember to celebrate it ??

I was indirectly reminded of it a few days later - I'm told that Gotlands Museum had asked people (on their FB page) to name their favourite word in Gutnish (which is the local dialect/(language)). I don't use FB so I don't know how many responded, nor the mentioned words.

By the way, the Gutnish calque of FB itself is "tröinkeiken".

[Iversen]

I don't quite know where such 'days' are published, except maybe on Facebook and some obscure UN page (and maybe LLORG, if somebody notices them), but it is not likely that they will slow down the death of the dialects and small languages around this world. And the media don't do much to keep them alive, but I would however mention that for instance SVT has regular programs in the Saami language(s) - and apparently NDR does have half an hour the last Sunday in every month, but as I mentioned the powers that be on the upper floors of NDR have not had the common sense to give the program a name that clearly spells "PLATT" - and if you check NDR's text TV then the pages marked Platt are below totally useless: they don't even mention their one and (apparently) only program in Low German. But you can find the programs in the Mediathek on the homepage (or else watch them the last Sunday before noon each and every month from now on).

There are other countries (and respective countrywide media) which treat their dialects/small languages even worse. For instance I don't remember ever never having heard French TV5 or TF2 even acknowledge that such a thing as Occitan exists - and much less Breton. On the other hand, these two also have far fewer programs about aliens and bigfeet than at least some of the Anglophone stations have got so maybe it is part of a wider cultural straitjacket-and-blinkers syndrome. And they also have fewer programs about zoos than the German TV stations (actually none at all). Or all the weird stuff (including zoos and Occitan and Breton) is on other senders than TV5 and TF2 - senders which I don't have access to...

Yesterday I have spent time on several languages: I have read about the creation of planets in Dutch, added a few waterfalls in Indonesian from an old printout and finally read and partly studied a text in Polish about the Serbian and/or Croatian inventor Tesla. I have earlier written extensively about him because I once used a text in Serbian as study object, so let me just repeat that he invented AC, the remote control and scores and scores of other things. He also invented the radio, but a crook named Marconi made a radio based on Tesla's ideas and patents and passed it off as his own invention, and when the US Supreme Court finally acknowledged the rights of Tesla he was dead.

POL: Czuję, że mój polski język stał się zardzewiały, i dlatego tu nie piszę wiele. Ale już na pierwszej stronie tekstu Tesli przypomniałem sobie coraz większą część słów.

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[jeff_lindqvist]

And the media don't do much to keep them alive, but I would however mention that for instance SVT has regular programs in the Saami language(s)(...)

This week on SVT2:
Monday - News in: Meänkieli, Romani chib, Saamic, Finnish
Tuesday - News in: Saamic, Finnish
Wednesday - News in: Saamic, Finnish
Thursday - News in: Saamic, Finnish
Friday - News in: Saamic, Finnish
Saturday - News in: Romani chib arli and lovari
Sunday - News in: Romani chib arli, lovari, kalderash and Meänkieli


10 minutes here, 15 minutes there... Better than nothing.

[Iversen]

EN: Long ago I sometimes watched "Liselotte Funcke television" on German TV. Why Liselotte Funke? Because she was "Ausländerbeauftragte" (the minister whose job it was to take care of foreigners), and if I didn't understand anything of the language in a program for foreign workers it sounded to me like babbelibabdutduthonkhink Liselotte Funcke babbabbab Liselotte Funcke bababbabab Dortmund bababababaapükgokgok auf Widersehen. Now where I might understand something I don't listen to such programs - and I actually don't even know whether they still exist, or whether the foreign workers watch TV directly from their native countries. They probably do.

It is fairly cold here right now - the Danish media speak about "Siberian temperatures", but that's just whining - they've got the real mcCoy in places like Oymyakon, where the termometer recently reached -62C (and then it broke down so it may have been even colder). But it's much colder here than it was in January, which almost broke the record for high temperatures. In this situation it should come as a relief to watch French TF2 this evening: there was a long program about ...

FR: .. les plaisirs et effets bénéfiques pour notre santé du froid. On avait convoqué l'assistance d'un monsieur qui est devenu un star même dans les programmes Americains pour son abilité de supporter le froid pour beaucoup plus longtemps que nous autres, les gens ordinaires qui préfèrent baigner dans l'eau tiède sans des morceaux de glace flottants à la surface. Mais il y aussi chez nous des 'vikings' qui aiment prendre des bains glaciaux. Dans le programme les pratiquants de la cryothérapie (dans ses formes diverses) essayaient de nous convaincre que le froid aussi pouvait guérir presque tout ce que ce soit, du mal au dos à l'insomnie. Quoi, il devrait même pouvoir servir comme régime minceur, et peut-être c'est vrai: si on est mort de hypothermie on cesse de manger trop. En effet, on cesse de manger du tout...

EN: I have spent a lot of time yesterday checking the maps and other information about zoos I have visited, the reason being that I have decided to throw most of the brochures away which I have accumulated from hundreds of voyages. I intend to keep town plans, concise and comprehensive museums lists and brochures which are like small books or which for some other reason are worth preserving. One reason could be that the institution I have visited has closed, and then it may soon be impossible to find new stuff on the internet about them. One particular sad case is

DU: ... Aquatopia in Antwerpen. Het was echt een goed (en echt labyrintisch!) aquarium op drie verdiepingen tegenover het centraal station, en het werd pas in 2003 opgericht. Maar toen is het reeds in 2017 gesloten en ik begrijp niet waarom het niet zou kunnen overleven. Nu kan ik nooit meer naar Antwerpen gaan: als ik van de stationshal uitstap naar het plein aan de voorkant, zal ik het gebouw waar het aquarium lag zien recht voor me - en dan zal ik van ergernis kotsen. EN: Goodbye, Antwerpen. You have ceased to exist.

IT: Ci sono altri zoo e acquari che si chiuse perché erano veramente cattivi - ad esempio, l'orribile zoo di Spalato (Split). L'acquario di Doehrn a Napoli è temporaneamente chiuso, ma citato solo in un comunicato stampa sul sito web dell'istituzione che lo gestava - tutte le sue altre attività sono ovviamente più importanti. Ma era uno degli acquari più antichi del mondo e l'edificio era un gioiello architettonico - quindi è un peccato che l'interno non sia stato rinnovato in tempo. Si riaprirà mai? Io dubito ...

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[Ogrim]

IThere are other countries (and respective countrywide media) which treat their dialects/small languages even worse. For instance I don't remember ever never having heard French TV5 or TF2 even acknowledge that such a thing as Occitan exists - and much less Breton. On the other hand, these two also have far fewer programs about aliens and bigfeet than at least some of the Anglophone stations have got so maybe it is part of a wider cultural straitjacket-and-blinkers syndrome. And they also have fewer programs about zoos than the German TV stations (actually none at all). Or all the weird stuff (including zoos and Occitan and Breton) is on other senders than TV5 and TF2 - senders which I don't have access to...

In France the only channel that has a true regional network is France 3, and locally they do emit programmes in the local dialect/language. France 3 Occitanie has a weekly programme in Occitan called Viure al pais" and a weekly news programme in Occitan and Catalan. France 3 Bretagne has a daily Journal Télévisé in Breton and a weekly show called Bali Breizh. Here in my region, France 3 Grand Est has a culinary show in Alsatian called A Gueter, and another called Kùmme Mit which is partly in Alsatian partly in French.

As regards zoos, I've been able to find a whole series with various seasons for you on France 4 called Une saison au zoo.

I don't know if there is any geo-restriction on these programmes, but I would be surprised if there is.

[Iversen]

Thanks to Ogrim for these informations. I can't get those channels by cable, but maybe it is possible to check out some of their programs via their websites - I'll try that later today. It would be particularly nice to find something in Occitan because I have heard next to nothing in that language, but I can more or less read it because I followed a course in Ancient Occitan (the language of the troubadours) while I studied at the university - and because it really isn't difficult to understand it once you know a smattering of French and Catalan and a few other related languages. A couple of years ago I read (and to some extent studied) a long article about the Sumerians in modern Occitan, and I have even concocted a few messages in it (here, here and here) (with the help of an online dictionary since I haven't been able to find a paper dictionary into Occitan).

Let's stay on the zoo track for just a moment more. Here is a true horror story:

SW: En gång i tiden var det ett vackert og stort tropikcenter i staden Halmstad, som annars inte just er känt för sina sevärdheter. Det ble installerat av en ivrig amatördjursamlare i stadens gamla vackra tullhus vid hamnen och jag lyckades se samlingen medan den var där. Men tyvärr höjdes hyran och mannen gav upp att köra vidare. Då borde djuren ha överförts till en ny djurpark i Skåne, men projektet gick åt skogen ock intet ble ut af det (förutom chaos och en skuld på flera miljoner svenska kronor). Och då upptäckte någon flera månader senare att det hade lämnats olika spindlar och ormar och fåglar och skorpioner och andra djur i byggnaden - utan vatten eller mat. Och alla frånsägda sig naturligtvis ansvaret. Jag antar att den tidigare ägaren var i chock och att projektutvecklarna i Skåne druknade i trubbel, och då gick allting fel. Byggnadsägaren hade planerat att inrätta ett pampigt lyxhotell i byggnaden, men det tjänar inte något ändamål - det finns tyvärr inte längre någon anledning att åka till Halmstad...

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[Iversen]

I'm still running through the zoo plans and descriptions/comments on my computer. I have just finished the North American part, so most of it has been in English ... and you may ask: why write about that on a language learning forum? Well, not all zoos are placed in Anglophone countries, and not all reviews of those are written in English, and part of the job yesterday was to scour the internet for better maps and information updates. And that means that I have replaced some old texts with newer ones in the relevant languages, and I have read through a lot of homepages in those languages. As for the maps I sometimes have replaced the old ones with newer ones, but there is a limit as to what I can do there. Some zoos have changed a lot since I visited them, and then it would led to anachronisms to use newer maps because they don't reflect the reality of what I once saw. On the other hand there are cases where the changes are fairly small and the new map is so much clearer that it actually is better suited to perform the core task the maps have, namely to let me maintain my memories of those places.

FR: Parfois j'ai pu à l'aide des nouveaux plans sur l'internet contrôler les vieux plans que j'ai du faire pendant ma visite, faute de plans lors de ma visite au lieu même. Ici j'ai dessiné le petit plan à droite pour le jardin zoologique Ivoloina dans l'est de Madagascar, et maintenant que j'ai trouvé des images sur l'internet je vois que mon esquisse d'antan était en effet assez bien réussi - endore qu'il ne couvrit que la partie centrale du lieu (à savoir la partie où les lémuriens étaient mis en cages - ils circulaient librement dans le reste du domaine).

Il faut peut-être ajouter que je fais d'abord un esquisse sur place, et je dessine la version définitive le même soir où je peux toujours me rappeler les détails. Mais le processus impliqué dans la production d'une belle carte d'ensemble d'un lieu ne finit par là: parfois j'ai remplacé les mots manuscrites au moment où j'ai inclus un lieu dans mon système digital, juste comme il faut parfois écrire les noms des animaux sur les plans produits par les zoos eux-mêmes, soit parce qu'on a utilisé un système avec des nombres plus un tableau avec les noms, soit parce qu'ils n'étaient pas indiqués du tout.

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BA IN: Contoh berikut menunjukkan kasus dimana prinsip Ii telah menangkap semua informasi, namun kartu tersebut tidak sepenuhnya sempurna. Ini menyangkut kebun binatang di Yogyakarta di Indonesia, di mana saya tidak memperhatikan arah segmen di paling kiri. Tapi saat membandingkan kedua versi tersebut, Anda bisa mengikuti jalan saya. Kebun binatang ini telah direnovasi sejak kunjungan saya, dan sekarang dipresentasikan sebagai institusi ekologi dengan fokus sebagian berubah. Saya tidak memasukkan daerah selatan sungai ke dalam rencana lantai saya sendiri karena sebagian besar adalah hutan dan taman bermain untuk keluarga dengan anak-anak.

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AF: Ek moes self die volgende kaart teken, want daar was geen kaart van die gebouw met die vistanken inn Durban se nuwe akwarium nie - daar was net een kaart oor die buite-gebiede. So het ek stapte door die donker ondergrondse gange terwyl ek my stappeen rigtingwysigings opgemerk het, en daarna dan kon ek die basiese plan opbou. Daarbenewens het ek in 2002 Durban se oue akwarium besoek, en toe ek in 2007 teruggekom het, het hulle dit gesluit en 'n groot nuwe akwarium êrens anders op die waterkant gebou. En die resultaat is baie suksesvol.

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IT: Sto pulendo le mie pile di opuscoli e schede informative di musei ecc., e la maggior parte di loro viene senza rimpianti gettata nella spazzatura - la collezione tuttavia copre solo una parte delle centinaia di musei che ho visitato e c'è sempre Internet come fonte di informazioni (oltre alle mie vecchie foto e descrizioni di viaggi). Ma conservo alcuni per leggerli. Ad esempio, ho ritrovato un bel opuscolo della città di Erice in Sicilia, ed è quasi troppo bello da scartare - posso usarlo come una lettura estesa. Conservo anche qualche opuscoli per studiare le parole scelte per diversi soggetti scientifici o tecnici. E sto tenendo le carte perché le mappe su Google Maps non hanno abbastanza nomi di strade per una semplice passeggiata in città.

[Iversen]

I had actually not planned to write anything here today, but ... OK, I'm here. So let me just communicate that I am through the cleaning operation relating to the heaps of old brochures etc from sundry travels to weird places, which had grown to alarming proportions. Alas, the result didn't fulfil my expectations. I have thrown most things from single museums and glossy brochures with few hard facts out and 'only' kept town plans with lots of streetnames, brochures with lists of all the museums of a place and a few particularly pretty opuscola. And my paper bin is full to the brim, but the result is still that I have got almost one shelf meter of brochures and maps. Maybe I got rid of a third or so, that's all. I consider this as a failure.

I have however also kept a few folders for study purposes (and later destruction). I have for instance saved a few parallel folders from Ireland in Gaelic and another language (mostly NOT English) because I in theory might decide to take up the Irish language again - in spite of the glaring lack of speakers and the weird pronunciation rules. I have also kept some brochures with a lot of interesting content, like one in Italian about the proudly independent republic of San Marino, which consists of a town with three castles on a mountain top, a parlament building the size of a matchbox and a formula one track below in the lowlands. But that's for later. Right now I'm studying ...

GR: .. το φυλλάδιο από το ιστορικό μουσείο της Αθήνας, και το παχουλό πράγμα είναι ότι μπορώ σχεδόν να δω τις αίθουσες του μυαλού μου όταν διαβάζω αυτό το κείμενο. Αυτός είναι ο λόγος για τον οποίο έχω φυλάξει τόσα πολλά φυλλάδια, αλλά στην πράξη δεν τα διάβασα αφού κατέληξαν σε μικρές πλαστικές σακούλες στο ράφι μου. Αυτό θυμίζει την κατάσταση με τις παλιές σελίδες του HTLAL - ξέρω ότι είναι εκεί πέρα και χαίρομαι που ότι δεν έχουν εξαφανιστεί (όπως το περιεχόμενο του ρωσικού φόρουμ που συζητήθηκε σε άλλο νήμα), αλλά στην πράξη δεν πια της διαβάζω.

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