Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

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Iversen
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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby Iversen » Sat May 13, 2023 8:54 pm

I have not written in this thread since Tuesday, and I'll have to blame that on three major distractions: horticulture, mammalian taxonomy and domestic tourism (plus eating and sleeping). The gardening aspect has been mentioned several times, so let me just mention that I have watered the thing and removed some weed, and my lawn mower is looking at me, wondering why I haven't used it yet. The mammalian taxonomy .. well, I have mentioned that I make a comments file parallel to the species list I made earlier, and now I run into the same problems with conflicting cladistics as when I made the species list. Actually one of the reasons to make the comments files is to remind me why I made the choices I did months ago. And finally tourism. Well, two days ago I just participated in a tour through a local police museum in the afternoon, but yesterday I followed a list over 'vejkirker' (road churches), i.e. churches that are open to visitors outside services (which I don't attend). I visited six - plus a paleontological museum and a bell museum with a school museum as its neighbour. And today I started out visiting a ferry berth from where I could have sailed to a small island - but I couldn't see any reason to do so, I just wanted to see the ferry. And then I visited one church, a splendid village museum based on the collections of one excentric gentleman (those are mostly the best because private people want to display everything they have got - professionals prefer hiding most of it away from the lowly mob) - and after that three zoological gardens. And it also takes time to organize my photos and travelogue entries, so study time has been limited.

But not reduced to zero. I have still had my goodnight reading session each evening, and for the moment it's an issue of Science et Vie from 2009, ...

FR: .. lequel me dit qu'en 2009 on pouvait déjà laisser un ordinateur deviner à quoi pensaient des sujets en utilisant des scanners cérébraux. Ou plus précisement dit: on divise l'exterieur du cerveau en petits 'voxels' dont on peut mésurer les minuscules changements magnétiques causées par l'augmention du flux sanguinaire.D'ailleurs j'ai lu que les experts dans une matière utilisent leur cerveaux MOINS que les néophytes en galère - mais je suppose que c'est une experience connu à tous ceux qui ont appris une langue. Bon ben, en 2009 on était au niveau où l'on pouvait déjà distinguer les empreintes cérébrales d'une série d'images diverses, de manière qu'on pouvait dire à quel image une personne regardait (ou pensais). Mais d'abord même les meilleurs mesures sur l'exterieur du crâne seulement donne une idée assez brouillée de ce qui se passe dedans, deuxièment ce n'est pas vraiment le magnétisme ou courant electrique qui conte - c'est plutôt un processus partiellement chimique, partiellement physique à l'échelle microscopique (qu'on ne peut pas mesurer sans pour le moins insérer des electrodes), et pour combler il y a un problème difficile à surmonter: plus on étudie les détails, de plus en plus l'organisation du cerveau devient personnelle. De manière qu'on ne peut toujours pas ici en 2023 lire les pensées d'une personne comme on lit un livre. Mais on peut lire le cerveau assez bien pour confectionner des membres artificiels dirigés par la seule pensée pour les personnes handicapées - et c'est déjà quelque chose...

Psykologi.JPG

Apart ça, j'ai fait les répétitions de deux listes de mots, l'un pour l'ancien français, l'autre pour le français moderne, et...

GR: Έχω μελετήσει ένα κείμενο για το Παρίσι από το αεροναυτικό περιοδικό BLUE (από της αεροπορικής εταιρείας Aegean). Αλλά μέρη του άρθρου ήταν ενοχλητικά επειδή οι συγγραφείς συνέστησαν ορισμένα εστιατόρια και νυχτερινά κέντρα και περισσότερα χρησιμοποιώντας την αγγλική γλώσσα (θα ήταν λιγότερο άσχετο αν ήταν γαλλικά, αλλα γιατι οχι ελληνικα;;). Ο γενικός μου κανόνας θα ήταν να συχνάζω ΜΗΝ ΠΟΤΕ σε ένα κατάστημα που προτείνει ένας δημοσιογράφος σε ένα περιοδικό, αλλά αν ήταν επίσης ένας δημοσιογράφος που επιδιώκει την "εξυπνάδα" χρησιμοποιώντας αγγλική ορολογία, η εμπιστοσύνη μου σε αυτό το άτομο θα μετρούσε ως αρνητικές αριθμητικές τιμές.

F6408a04 - wee ferryboat to Årø.jpg

EDIT: I suddenly remembered that the Greek use ; instead of ? - but so far nobody has complained so maybe I should just have left the error.
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Iversen
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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby Iversen » Tue May 16, 2023 4:57 pm

The last couple of days I have finished my comments to mammals (but still have the birds and fish waiting for me), and I have worked with my garden, where the growth rate has increased with rising temperatures. In this moment I'm watching a program on SVT2 about lost civilisations in the Bolivian part of the Amazonas, and since it's on Swedish TV the main voice is Swedish, but the interviews are in Spanish - no dubbing, and no simultaneous speak in two languages.

SP: Parece claro que había grandes poblaciones en la Amazonia que vivían en la cima de pequeñas colinas artificiales colocadas alrededor de una pirámide de tierra en el medio. Una ciudad moderna llamada San Bartolo se encuentra encima de una de estas colinas. Los antiguos campos aún son visibles, y son inmensos. Entonces, ¿a dónde fue esa gente? Bueno, es casi seguro que murieron a causa de las enfermedades traídas por algunos invasores españoles.

POR: A chave para a agricultura nessas áreas é o 'terra preta', que é formado pela atividade humana (formação de composto e cultivo de mandioca em vez de de grãos), onde o solo ácido foi convertido em solo preto com composto. Mas quando a população foi reduzida a alguns por cento, esse processo caiu no esquecimento. E isso é contado por meio de entrevistas em português, porque os experimentos estão sendo feitos agora em um local no Brasil. No Oriente Médio, as grandes civilizações surgiram porque eram necessários sistemas para administrar a irrigação artificial, mas esse desenvolvimento não foi necessário na Amazônia, onde chovia muito.

SW: Och nu har scenen ändrats till Peru, och språket har ändrats tillbaka till spanska omväxlande med svenska. De har ännu inte nämnt jordbruket i Anderna, men bevattning och odling av potatis bidrog till att gynna bildandet av administrativa system i bergen, med inkafolket som ändpunkt. Just nu uppger den svenska utroparen att en pyramid har hittats i djungeln som byggdes för 5000 år sedan – INNAN pyramiderna i Egypten. Och allt detta har varit okänt för vetenskapen fram till för några år sedan. Världens historia måste skrivas om.

POR: E agora fica uma vez mais uma senhora brasileira falando de novo, e ela está triste e zangada :twisted: porque a cultura de seus ancestrais foi esquecida por tanto tempo. E também porque a selva está sendo destruída por gente 'modernos' que não sabem cultivar a terra de forma sustentável...

EN: I have of course also read some stuff, but mostly in French and Greek ... and Galego. I have had a Galician essay collection lying on my 'night chair' for some time together with the history of Portugal, first-time travelogues in Romanian, French sci mags and other things, but hardly read anything in it. I have not studied Galego, but it resembles Portuguese and Spanish enough to make it comprehensible. The only text I have studied during the day is an old blue TY Modern Greek ..

GR: ..και αυτό είναι τόσο παλιό ότι χρησιμοποιεί την παλιά ορθογραφία. Το κοιτάζω και γράφω τις ελληνικές προτάσεις γιατί χρησιμεύουν ως επανάληψη του στοιχειώδους επιπέδου της γλώσσας.

SW: Och nu har twå svenskara åkt till Berlin, där det första de visar är en bevarad del av muren ock kyssen mellan Honecker och Breshznev – men de stackars svenskarna pratar uppenbarligen inte tyska, eftersom de intervjuar folk på engelska. Det är ynkligt!

EN: When the Swedes started to show ice hockey (not my cup of tea..) I switched to Danish TV, and hurray - here a program about the find of the Sutton Hoo treasure has just started. The speak is partly in Danish, but it's a BBC program with a lot of speech in English - and here it is OK because it's all about England. The only thing that would have been even more OK would have been Anglosaxon - and then I would have needed subtitles!

Sutton_Hoo.jpg
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Iversen
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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby Iversen » Thu May 18, 2023 7:41 pm

More of the same, including more pages in the ancient blue TY Modern Greek by Sofroniou which I must have bought in the early 80s, just before I stopped all my language studies for 25 years so I didn't open it back then. It happened in the 2010s, but I mostly used another text book written in Swedish by Mystakidis - and then I also got the mad idea to translate a Greek guidebook to Athens into Danish, just using the textbooks and an old, but otherwise excellent pocket Langenscheidt dixctionary (Greek - German). Just to make clear: since I started learning Greek I have bought new dictionaries with the new orthography, including those for Danish and Greek signed Rolf Hesse and a couple more - but I still cling to my pocket Langenscheidt in spite of its age, because it is so full of words without being cumbersome to handle.

Normally I just copy my study texts texts while doing my utmost to understand everything, but at the TY level I know most already so there is not much gain from the copy process. However I have started also to do the active exercises, and my recall is not nearly at the level of my recognition skills so here I do learn something. Or rather: I relearn it. Besides there are some useful lists and other kinds of grammatical information which I definitely can profit from (remember, it's an old TY from 1962 (13. reprint 1980) - and they weren't as grammar scared back then); But there is one aberdabei, namely that it isn't 100% modern - it uses the deprecated orthography with three accents and aspirations and accents even on one syllable words. But it has a partner, namely my oldest micro Greek-German Langenscheidt (even smaller that the Pocket series). I intend to bring both along to Crete - they don't weigh much, and I only have an 8 kg hand luggage allowance (which has to leave space for a book or two on the return flight). I learnt to avoid heavy luggage when I travelled on a series of interrail cards back in the 70s. I'll also carry a thin Danish guidebook to the Greek islands along, mostly for the maps.

OK, I'm still at home, but I am looking at my garden and hoping that it will rain while I am away - at least some of the time.

Another language larning activity: I proceed slowly, but steadily through the repetition of language lists under the 30 language folly project, each with at least 200 words. And I have now added Ancient French, French, Portuguese, Castilian and Catalan to the finished part - which means that I only lack Italian, Romanian, Greek, Albanian, Bulgarian, Serbian, Croatian, Slovak, Czech, Polish, Ukrainian, Russian, Irish, Esperanto and Bahasa Indonesia. And when I have finished writing this sentence I'm going to look some touristical information up on the internet - maybe in Greek if it's concise enough to be printed out.

TY Modern Greek.jpg
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Iversen
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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby Iversen » Sun May 28, 2023 8:45 am

Yesterday I arrived home from a week on Crete, and I'm quite satisfied with the whole thing, I have thought about adding Greek to my formal language list, which is based on 'monolingual' trips, i.e. trips where I only speak in the local language to local people and try to limit any use of other languages. But I did have some conversations in English - like for instance on my hotel when I asked why there wasn't one single Greek program on the TV, but just Sky News and for the rest half Italian, half Russian programs (and rotten ones, to boot). And again when I had to get up extremely early to get a return flight at 6:45 and needed at wake-up call (which I actually didn't need in the end because I solved sudokus instead of sleeping). I did however use Greek for almost all 'small' operations, like buying food and tickets and communicating with museum and shop employees - so I actually came fairly close to making the trip monolingual.

I could however not prevent the Greeks from speaking English to me since I quite obviously was a tourist. When I then answered in Greek some kept speaking English (not necessarily out of malice, but because they didn't realize that they had heard Greek and not English). Others seemed genuinely happy to meet an excentric foreigner, and some needed an explanation - and then I told them that "Ξέρω να διαβάζω ελληνικά, αλλά είναι πιο δύσκολο να μιλήσω και να ακούσω γιατί δεν ακούω ποτέ τη γλώσσα στο σπίτι" (meaning 'I can read it, but it's harder to speak and listen because I never hear it at home'). That was for instance the explanation I used in a bookstore in Irakleio (Ηράκλειο) where I tried to find something about science in Greek (in vain - it seems to bequite a rarity down there). I did however return home with a new issue of Aegean's bilingual airflight magazine and some touristical booklets including a good little thing about Ierapetra which I got for free in the municipal Virtual Museum there.

Right now I'm heavily involved in organizing my photos and my travelogue etc., but over the next couple of days I'll come with some tidbits in Greek abut the trip. However right now I'll mention another thing, namely a deeply troubling TV program from Swedish SVT2 (NOT Norwegian!) which I watched the evening before leaving for Greece.

F6415a06_Swingin' Lady from Agia Triada (Archeo.museum Irakleio).jpg

You have probably never heard about a Norwegian painter named Oscar Waldemar Johannesen who lived a sad life with alcohol and other problems including a mortally ill wife? Well, then here comes... When the man died she discovered a stash of disturbing paintings which he had painted in secret. She organized an exhibition and then she also died, but a wealthy private Norwegian named Haakon Mehren saw them later and decided that they should be rescued. Well, he soon discovered that this wasn't as easy as he had thought. But let me first make a digression ... to China, where the mighty emperor Shi-Huang Di Qin Shi Huang had died and a eunuch Zhao Gao grabbed the real power, leaving the real heirs dead or reduced to puppets. Quote Wikipedia:

Zhao Gao was contemplating treason but was afraid the other officials would not heed his commands, so he decided to test them first. He brought a deer and presented it to the Second Emperor but called it a horse. The Second Emperor laughed and said, "Is the chancellor perhaps mistaken, calling a deer a horse?" Then the emperor questioned those around him. Some remained silent, while some, hoping to ingratiate themselves with Zhao Gao, said it was a horse, and others said it was a deer. Zhao Gao secretly arranged for all those who said it was a deer to be brought before the law and had them executed instantly. Thereafter the officials were all terrified of Zhao Gao. Zhao Gao gained military power as a result of that.

Back to Norway. Here the National Gallery had been under the control of a godfather type named ... well, let's not name him, but he was the kind of person who could mould the personnel into blindly accepting his more or idiosyncratic judgments, and he didn't even refrain from smoking in the archival rooms in spite of the strict tobacco ban. Maybe he just was irritated that he didn't discover Johannesen himself and that a mere mortal privat person insisted that his works should be shown, maybe he didn't even care to look at them. But Mehren got them shown outside Norway to great acclaim in places like the Leopold in Vienna, MOMA in NY and a festival in Venice. And in the meantime the godfather had died, but leaving the staff he had moulded in his own spirit - and those people succeeded in intriguing a new Danish director with other ideas away. Someone at the National Gallery even threatened a German museum (Berlin's Bode shown) that they would never see even the shadow of EdwardMunch if they showed Johannesen publicly, and they suggested that all the paintings be sent to nearest the junkyard (suggesting that the lot be burned might be too direct a reference to the nazis).

Speaking about Munch: he is seen as the god of Norwegian art, and a new and very expensive museum has been built to show his works. But I have seen the pictures of Johannesen at the Danish Wikipedia, and I also saw those of Munch at the old museum - and I was not too impressed. Some of Munch's paintings have acquired iconic status, partly from being shown again and again, but in my humble opinion he was not that much better generally than Johannesen. But precisely the things that are lauded in Munch are used against Johannesen - however that can be. So why the difference in status? Well, the blame seems to rest with the dead godfather and his loyal and mourning congregation at the National Gallery.

The trouble is that iconic status isn't just a concept limited to the world of painting. And the idea that the quality stamp can and should be bestowed by professionals and only by them is definitely a fundamental error (at least quality = price tag is a measurable criterion, though hardly just) - which reminds me about an article about the not-geologist Alfred Wegener who claimed that there was such a thing as a continental drift and got whacked in scathing comments by all the professional geologists of his day. And as we now know the whole bunch of them was dead wrong - but if they hadn't been so intent of confirming each other's opinions they might have discovered continental drift long before the sum of facts toppled their game.

Johannesen 1922 (WIkipedia).jpg
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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby allf100 » Mon May 29, 2023 3:24 am

But let me first make a digression ... to China, where the mighty emperor Shi-Huang Di had died and a eunuch Zhao Gao grabbed the real power, leaving the real heirs dead or reduced to puppets.


I think there is probably a typo for 'Shi-Huang Qin' instead of 'Di' in your writing.

However, Shi-Huang Qin is not correct either.

His full name was Yin Zheng. (His surname was Yin, and Zheng was his given name though it is contraversial, as some historians regard that his surname was Zhao. In Chinese, we put surname name before given name. For example, the incumbent President of China is Xi Jinping which is spelt by English media outlets i.e. CNN. 'Xi' is his family name.)

Qin was not the emperor's surname, but the name of the dynasty founded by the first ever emperor who historically first ever united the other vassal states in China as well as the name of the previous vassal state ruled by his forefathers.

In Chinese 'shi' refers to 'beginning, the first'; and 'huang' means emperor. 'Qin Shi Hunag', which was his title, means the first emperor of Qin (Dynasty). He was also known Qin I, the First Emperor of Qin.

Since Qin was not his surname, I think it is inappropriate to put it behind 'Shi Huang'. Likewise, Shi Huang was not his given name, so it is inaccurate to add a hypen between 'Shi' and 'Huang'.

In my humble opinion, it is Qin Shi Huang, the First Emperor of Qin, or Qin I as which relatively less people would address him. I personally prefer Qinshihuang as it is a proper noun.

Just my two cents.

PS. Coincidentally an British man happened to mention to Qinshihuang to me today too as he plans to visited his terracota army. :mrgreen: In his message, he referred him as Qinshihuang. When I was a teen, I watched a TV series named Qinshihuang. I was so impressed by him and wished to visit his mausoleum too. Now I wouldn't like to travel any more.
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Iversen
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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby Iversen » Mon May 29, 2023 9:50 am

Ouch, I even think I have made the same error a few years ago - but now I have corrected the name to Qin Shi Huang, and I hope that I'll somehow remember to use the correct form (or at last one of the correct forms) the next time I need it.

By the way I also read some Wikipedia articles about later emperors (what a weird and mostly paranoic slash murderous bunch!), and there the complicated imperial naming rules were mentioned. In one case I think there was five names or so to keep apart, and certain combinations would never be used - like the word for 'emperor' with some of those other names. I remember that the old Egyptians had similarly complicated habits, but in both cases I leave the details to the professionals.

Ready for a bit of Greek?

GR: Τον Φεβρουάριο του 2020, η ασθένεια κορονοϊού έφτασε στην Κεράλα της Ινδίας την ίδια μέρα που έπρεπε να πετάξω σπίτι μου - και μετά ταξίδεψα στη Δανία μόνο για το υπόλοιπο του 2020. Το 2021, το ίδιο συνέβη ξανά, εκτός από το ότι ήμουν ένα ταξίδι με τρένο στο Ρόστοκ στη Γερμανία, γιατί κάποιοι ντόπιοι ερασιτέχνες μουσικής ήθελαν να παίξουν ένα από τα έργα μου εκεί. Περίμενα λίγο περισσότερες δωρεάν ευκαιρίες ταξιδιού το 2022, αλλά η υγεία της μητέρας μου κατέβηκε τόσο γρήγορα που άλλαξα να την επισκέπτομαι κάθε εβδομάδα. Και τελικά πέρασα περισσότερο χρόνο στο σπίτι της παρά στο σπίτι στο δικό μου διαμέρισμα. Έπρεπε να οργανώσω τα ταξίδια του καλοκαιριού με αυτούς τους όρους, οπότε έμεινα στο σπίτι της μητέρας μου τουλάχιστον τις μισές φορές και ενδιάμεσα είτε πήγαινα σπίτι στο διαμέρισμα είτε σε σύντομα ταξίδια στη μερική Δανία, αλλά τώρα και σε γειτονικές περιοχές στη Σκανία ή βορειότερη Γερμανία, και το πιο απομακρυσμένο από το σπίτι μου ήταν ένα ταξίδι στη Ρηνανία και στο Μοζέλα, όπου πέρασα μια νύχτα στο νυχτερινό τρένο και 3 στην πόλη Κόμπλεντς. Έτσι, όταν πέταξα στην Κρήτη, ήταν η πρώτη πτήση μετά από σχεδόν 3½ χρόνια και σχεδόν ένιωσα ότι θα πήγαινα σε απεξάρτηση.

Το ξενοδοχείο μου στη Μάλια ήταν μερικές εκατοντάδες μέτρα από το καλύτερο σούπερ μάρκετ της πόλης, τον Χατζιαδάκη, και υπήρχαν στάσεις λεωφορείων (αριθμοί 32 και 33) άλλες μερικές εκατοντάδες μέτρα μακριά. Θα έπρεπε να νοικιάσω αυτοκίνητο αν ήμουν εκεί για περισσότερο από μια εβδομάδα, αλλά τα δρομολόγια των λεωφορείων κατά μήκος της βόρειας ακτής ήταν αρκετά για να καλύψει τις ταξιδιωτικές μου ανάγκες για μια εβδομάδα. Η μόνη φορά που διέσχισα το νησί στη νότια ακτή ήταν ένα παράπλευρο ταξίδι στην Ιεράπετρα από τον Άγιο Νικόλαο και στη συγκεκριμένη διαδρομή υπάρχει σύνδεση κάθε ή κάθε δύο ώρες. Αλλά και ο χρόνος ήταν παράγοντας - όταν επισκέφτηκα το Ρέθυμνο και τα Χανιά μέσω Ηρακλείου η μεταφορά χρειάστηκε συνολικά περισσότερες από 8 ώρες. Ένα ενοικιαζόμενο αυτοκίνητο θα μπορούσε να το κάνει πιο γρήγορα (υπάρχει ένας αυτοκινητόδρομος για το μεγαλύτερο μέρος της διαδρομής), αλλά δεν θα ήταν διασκεδαστικό να κάνετε ελιγμούς πόσο μάλλον να παρκάρετε στις πόλεις. Οι τιμές ήταν λογικές - 3,80 ευρώ για μια ώρα με το αυτοκίνητο μέχρι το Ηράκλειο - αλλά σχεδόν σε κάθε λεωφορείο ακουγόταν μουσική, αν και σπάνια χειρότερη από το παλιό μου MP3 player με καταρράκτες και τον ήχο της βροχής μπορούσε να το πνίξει. Το καλώδιο μου για τα ακουστικά έκανε απεργία ήδη την Κυριακή, αλλά αγόρασα καινούργια ακουστικά 5€ στην Ιεράπετρα.

Διαφορετικά, τα μαθηματικά έγιναν ως εξής: Σάββατο πόλη Μάλια, Κυριακή ερείπια του κάστρου των Μαλίων (το τρίτο μεγαλύτερο μετά την Κνωσό και τη Φαιστό) συν Cretaquarium συν Κνωσός, Δευτέρα Ιεράπετρα με καλό καιρό και Άγιος Νικόλαος με βροχή το απόγευμα, Τρίτη τα μουσεία στο Ηράκειο, Τετάρτη Ρέθυμνο και Χανιά, Πέμπτη ξανά Άγιος Νικόλαος συν Ελούντα και Χερσόνησος (με το AquaWorld), την Παρασκευή εκκλησίες και επιχειρηματικές περιοχές κ.λπ. στο Ηράκλειο και μια τελευταία βόλτα στα Μάλια, και μετά το ταξίδι τελείωσε με πρόωρη αναχώρηση (μεταφορά σε θορυβώδες μίνι λεωφορείο) και λίγες ώρες στην Κοπεγχάγη. Μιλούσα ελληνικά τις περισσότερες φορές στο νησί εκεί κάτω, αλλά με κάποιες κουβέντες στα αγγλικά - επομένως δεν ήταν ένα "μονόγλωσσο" ταξίδι. Και στην Κοπεγχάγη μίλησα ιταλικά με τη σερβιτόρα σε μια πιτσαρία. Αλλά συνολικά μια επιτυχημένη επανέναρξη της κανονικής ταξιδιωτικής ζωής.

F6423a01_Aquaworld, Hersonissos_me and a Boa constrictor.jpg
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Querneus
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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby Querneus » Wed May 31, 2023 1:18 pm

Iversen wrote:By the way I also read some Wikipedia articles about later emperors (what a weird and mostly paranoic slash murderous bunch!)

Fortasse tuā intererit haec dissertio de modo ad quem imperatores Romani Sinicique occĭdēre (vel occisi sunt, ut saepenumero sane accidit) — etiam quantos annos regnaverint disserit scriptor. Cuius querella de historiographia Sinica in Wikipedia inventa risum mihi movit, quod, ut apparet, meliores vel peiores esse relatum sit quam ut credi possit.

First, a short rant:

Wikipedia articles for the Roman and Chinese empires really are night and day! Roman articles are generally closely cited, frequently offer opposing viewpoints, attempt to describe the emperors as complex people, but also freely acknowledge when not enough is known to have any firm opinion on someone. Chinese articles read like fanfiction. Almost everyone is either a valorous hero (though sometimes lead astray by evil eunuchs) or a supervillain; [...]
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Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=1027
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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby Iversen » Fri Jun 02, 2023 6:04 pm

Since I wrote my last post I have read a series of portraits of Chinese emperors, including those of "Northern Wei" - inspired by the general list over Chinese emperors, where the authors apparently felt it necessary to indicate when an emperor died of natural causes (including illness). The majority was murdered, and in such a climate it is understandable that they became slightly paranoic and liable to take rash decisions. And the portraits of certain chief eunuchs would also be a reason to fear for your life. I have already mentioned Zhao Gao, but a certain Zong Ai murdered emperor Taiwu (an in principle successful emperor, who had doubled the size of his empire by war) in 452 , because he suspected the emperor would be angry to hear that the crown prince had died of fear because Zhao Gao got his all nearest associates executed. And then he got the obvious heirTuoba Han killed and another son of Taiwu, Tuoba Yu, nominated as emperor, and then he got him killed too - but after that other court offials decided to get rid of Zong Ai, who was convicted of the murder of Tuoba Yu (not that of Taiwu), and with another official Zong Ai was mutilated, flogged to death and decapitated (better be certain it worked!), whereupon his body was ground up and plowed down into the earth.

But Chinese emperors didn't seem to have much empaty in general with others, especially ordinary people, and just to take one example: I noticed in the article about Northern Wei this piece of information: "During the reign of Emperor Daowu (386–409), the total number of deported people from the regions east of Taihangshan (the former Later Yan territory) to Datong was estimated to be around 460,000. Deportations typically took place once a new piece of territory had been conquered." (the two biggest deportations of 100.000 individuals each - out of some 5 mio. inhabitants - happened in 398 and 399). Stalin didn't invent that procedure..

Apart from that I can't see that there is that much difference between the articles about Roman and Chinese emperors, except that we as Westerners feel we know the former better and therefore better can se them as real living dead people. The Chinese mostly are unknown to someone like me and feel more like empty names. The history of China is every bit as complicated as that of Europe, but I have spent years reading about the latter and generally know what happened when. Not so with China.

Kunst074a.JPG

SP: Por cierto, he visto un quiz español llamado El Comodín de TVE dos días seguidos, y ahora mismo hay otro quiz en la pantalla llamado "Más allá del jardín" - aunque no ve dónde está ningún jardín, tal vez porque estamos ya más allá de el. Afortunadamente, las preguntas están a un nivel en el que incluso yo puedo responder. Por ejemplo, hicieron la pregunta a un participante: ¿cuál es la abreviatura del pronombre español 'usted'? La señora respondió mientras yo escribía esta oración, pero sospecho que lo sabía también.
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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby tastyonions » Sat Jun 03, 2023 8:07 pm

Hey Iversen, I thought of you after listening to this radio episode earlier today: you (and anyone else proficient in both Spanish and Portuguese) might enjoy listening to some of this bilingual interview, with the host asking questions in Portuguese and the guest (a war correspondent from Spain) responding in Spanish:

https://www.rtp.pt/play/p260/e693956/prova-oral
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Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=1027
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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby Iversen » Mon Jun 05, 2023 9:58 am

I'm happy when I hear people taking the trouble to ignore a language difference and just carrying on their conversation. Better that than forcing both to speak an irrelevant foreign language (no names named).

I mentioned in the 50 words-a-day thread that I had done a couple of wordcounts to see whether my Serbian vocabulary had seeped away because I have spent more on other darlings lately - but it seems not to be the case ("side"=page, "ord"=word, "(u)kendt"=(un)known, "#"= absolute number) - 48% and 50% are slightly lower than the figures from 2021, but not irreparably so:

Serbian_2014 to 2023.jpg

Maybe it's time to write a few observations down about wordcounting in general. I did the first one in 2007 to check my progress in reviving my dormant Romanian, passive vocabulary size being one of the few things that can be measured - albeit with serious reservations. The first of which is to judge your knowledge of a word correctly and avoid wishful thinking / selfdelusion. As I wrote in the other thread there is a bottom of maybe a third of the words in a typical Slavic dictionary which I 'know' because they are found elsewhere - and I can rarely remember whether I actually have seen them in the language I'm counting. Which incidentally is my reason for dropping the term "guessable" for my middle category - it might be the case also for many words in the "known" category. Instead I have used the Danish word "la-la", which is used about sloppy mediocre workmanship or knowledge (vaguely known words or words expected in another form end up here). And I accept a word as "known" if I know what it means and it has exactly the form I would have expected."Unknown" is easier to define, except that I sometimes remember having seen a word after I have marked it as unknown. I can often also guess other members of a word family if I have seen just one member of the family, but unless I'm sure that I have seen (and maybe even used) one word in such a family they all go into the unknown 'cauldron'.

And one obvious problem more: I look the words up in a dictionary, and then I evaluate them. But I can also see the translations in the dictionary :o . However here I have some observations from my triple-column wordlist activities to counter my nagging suspicions: I mostly use a review procedure where I copy the first column with the foreign words, and my task then is to add a second column with translations (ideally the same words as in the original list, but synonyms are OK). And to test my own 'honesty' I have sometimes done the copying while covering the translations in the original list. And as far as I can see it doesn't really make a difference -so it seems that I can handle a test word without letting its translation influence me. And if not, then it's a general problem which should have similar effects across all languages and years (resulting in too high percentages for known or 'la-la' words), and I can still draw the conclusion concerning Serbian that I lost some words after 2014, but mostly during the first years -and since then my passive vocabulary has basically been stable.

To do a wordcount there is a fixed procedure. You need a dictonary (the size is not really important if you focus on the percentages), a sheet of paper and at least three ballpoint pens in different colours. Then you open the dictionary on a random page and after that on equidistant pages. You select right or left side and a column (if applicable), and then you essentially copy all words (except maybe proper names and expressions) in that column to the sheet, using one colour for clearly known, one for clearly unknown and one for the grey zone in the middle. And after that you find the total number of pages in the whole dictionary (or relevant half of it if it is bidirectional), count the three categories separately and add the numbers for all pages. And then you do the calculations and find the percentages and absolute numbers and end up with something like the table above.

And then you remind yourself that this isn't hard science, but just a guideline based on a lot of basically untenable assumptions - but still better than just a gut feeling. And you still don't know the size of your active vocabulary, except that it must be smaller than that of the passive one.

By the way: I'm currently doing the repetitions for old wordlists in the silly 30-language project - and because I have postponed doing them for far too long I now have seven columns with each at least 30 words to do for each language. And that will take time. I still have eight Slavic languages plus Esperanto plus Irish plus Indonesian waiting for me, and it may take the rest of the week. But I'm finding time for a few other things too: yesterday evening and the evening before I read some pages in a Greek guidebook to Thessaloniki before falling asleep. And I watch TV in some languages (Arte in French rather than German), but I haven't had much time for intensive text studies the last week or so.
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