Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

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Iversen
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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby Iversen » Fri Dec 27, 2019 8:03 pm

I have returned to my humble abode with its precious old computer system without which I feel like a fish on dry land. As expected my studying activity was limited, but I did read the chapter about pronouns in my Bulgarian grammar one late evening, and in the train on the way home I read an Italian travel magazine which I bought in 2009 - more about that below. I mostly watched TV in Danish (also out of consideration for my family), but as I have mentioned earlier in December some channels have miraculously returned to my mother's Astra receiver system. I did a new search which yielded some 120 channels, but only around 30 were at a reasonable level (i.e. strength 90%, quality at least 50-60%) - the rest were too low on the scale to be relevant, and unfortunately my old favorite channel Phoenix was among those that didn't make the cut. The one with most documentaries now is ZDFinfo (which also has a repository on the internet), but it has the problem that the films that originally were in English are dubbed according to the terrible German method, where the English voice and the German dubbing both can be heard - maybe not a problem for strictly monolingual Germans, but intolerable to people who understand both languages. And I belong in that category. We/I also watched some programs in Swedish and Norwegian, but the most common foreign language was of course English - not least because a large portion of the content on the 'Danish' channels actually is Anglophone with Danish subtitles.

I would like to mention one program in English which we watched today: it told the story about the oldest zoo in the world, which was established in the predynastic Egyptian capital Hierakonpolis where a dynasty of local rulers collected wild animals in some kind of enclosures. Unfortunately there was one aspect of zoo keeping which they had misunderstood: at the death of each ruler they killed all the animals (plus a number of women and children). But after some time they changed the rules to something even worse: they now catched the animals and sacrificed them (and ate those of them that were sufficiently delicious). It is wellknown that many - if not most - of the later Egyptian gods were half animal, half antropomorf beings, and the find of these zoo remains suggests that this pattern was established even before the advent of writing and also before Narmer/Menes united Upper and Lower Egypt, which normally is seen as the beginning of the dynastic period. I have checked Youtube to see whether the program has been uploaded there, but didn't find it. There are however other videos (mostly shorter) about this extremely old phase in the history of Egypt, but unfortunately they seem all to be in English. Almost any other language would have been more fun and more educative for me (sorry for not writing this in Coptic or ancient Egyptian).

IT: La rivista turistica italiana si chiama "Turisti per Caso" e sembra essere stata fondata da una coppia di nome Syasy e Patricio. Si differenzia da molte altre riviste nel fatto che non favorisce gli avventurieri, ma piuttosto racconta come viaggiatori abbastanza ordinari hanno visitato luoghi che anch'io potrei visitare - e quanto costava farlo. Come New York, ad esempio, dove tuttavia non credo sia consigliabile chiamare un taxi alzando la mano come ha fatto un certo attore in qualche stupido film che io non ho mai visto. Il mio consiglio alternativo è di evitare totalmente di alzare la mano se c'è un taxi nella vicinanza - consiglio che si applica anche alle aste di ogni tipo.

POR: E, por uma coincidência especial, trouxe também uma edição da revista portuguesa "Super Interessante" que contava principalmente dos "Faraós do Antigo Egito" - mas eu acho que tenho já escrevido o suficiente sobre a história egípcia nesta breve nota.

Hierakonpolis_zoo.jpg
(nat geo)
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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby Iversen » Sun Dec 29, 2019 6:54 pm

I have written two long posts in the thread "Classical music study recommendations", one covering the period up to 1650 and the other the period from 1900 and up. I had planned also to add posts covering the Baroque, Classical and Romantic periods in that thread, but then I got a better idea: I'll write a multilingual series covering the whole history of classical music here in my own log thread, and that will give me an excuse to train my writing skills in other languages than English. I'm of course aware that not everybody can read all the languages, but then there is something called Google Translate to assist you.

So let's go back to the beginnings. The essentials are found on a page on openculture.com, although the music files are actually hosted on Youtube - which means that they can be there today and gone tomorrow, so don't postpone your experience for too long. The oldest flute is estimated to be some 43.000 years old, which has made some archeologist speculate that it might be the product of a smart Neanderthalian. Nobody knows, but it seems to have holes that correspond to do, re, mi, fa - or in other words: the scale isn't an artifical invention, it must have some basis in the physical realities and in the workings of our mind. How the music sounded is anyone's guess.

Next in line (mentioned at the same page) is a Hurrian hymn, notated in cuneiform writing - and luckily dr. Kilmer once explained in an interview how the scholars managed to decrypt this piece, which must be the oldest extant piece of sheet music in the world. It is played on a drum and some kind of plucked instrument here. Another version is found here, but it is hard to believe that it is the same piece.

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The Egyptians also loved music - they had singers employed at their temples all through their history, and several kinds of instruments have been found in their graves. However I have never seen any indication that actual musical sheets from the old days have been found. Wikipedia claims that most melodies back then were in the Phrygian, but the article doesn't quote any sources.

The Ancient Greeks also loved music (remember the myth about poor innocent flute player Marsyas, who was flayed alive for trying to compete with the evil god Apollon), and there were contacts between them and the Egyptians. Contrary to the Egyptians the Greeks did leave a few melodies in some kind of letter notation, and writers like Plato wrote about ways to render the music - mostly monophonic and with an instrument supporting a singer, or in other words: definitely not my kind of music, but if you can't restrain your curiosity you can hear a reconstruction here - with remarks about performance practice, instrument building and sundry other things. The first 4 seconds features nice sounds emanating from a double aulos, but then the singers start to interfere (oh my god, as the Americans say) - and from then on it's pure mayhem!

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The Romans were cultureless barbarians who imported Greek medics, artists and musicians to fill the void. The next thing that happens in European music is therefore the introduction of Gregorian song. There is a lot of it on Youtube (and in Roman Catholic churches up till this very day), but you can also turn your attention to a slightly more palatable version from a band named Gregorian. Anyway, ...

LAT: Cantus gregorianus nomen habet suus quia papa Gregorianus correctiones consuetudinum musicam facendi instuit, sed non ipse melodias scripsit, et Wikipedia innuat quod musica de cantoribus hodie cantata potius opus clerici ex temporibus Carlomagni sit. Notata est cum '(p)neumi' (ex Graeca πνεῦμα (pneuma)) qui modo directionem sonorium indicat, sed non omnino durationem. Unus Guido Aretionis alter rationem circa anno domini MXXX excogitavit: ille cum digitis contavit et etiam numerum linearum ad IV fixavi (postea V), sed porro rationem invenit nomina seriei graduum musicorum:

Ut queant laxis
Resonare fibris
Mira gestorum
Famuli tuorum
Solve polluti
Labii reatum
Sancte Iohannes

Bone, hodie saepe "do" pro "ut" dicitur, sed francophonici rationem Guidoni adhuc hodie utuntur - nescio cur istud faciunt, ego A, B (aut H), C, D et cetera dico...

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Iversen
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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby Iversen » Mon Dec 30, 2019 12:29 pm

First I have to apologize for an error: I had written that Alfonso el Sabio ('the wise') was king of Portugal. Wrong - he was king of Castile and Leon, but his cantigas have texts in Galician - and as you probably know, Galician is more closely related to Portuguese than it is to Castillian 'Spanish'. He ruled 1252 to 1284, and actually he promoted Castilian as the main language of his kingdom - but still wrote his poetry in Galician.

The 12. and 13. centuries were also the period where the troubadours (and a few trobairitz) wrote their songs in Occitan, while the trouvères were active in (Northern) France and the Minnesänger in Germany - and the English/Occitan king Richard Lionheart in a cell in a tower in Dürnstein Castle in Austria,where he wrote the song "Ja nuls om pres" ('No man who is imprisoned'). Well, that's debatable, bordering on maybe not quite true - Richard was definitely a prisoner and had to be ransomed for 100,000 pounds of silver by his poor subjects (who lived in Britain and parts of modern France).

OCC: Si vos realment amas li cançons dels trobadors devon absolvudament escutar lou "Trovadores occitanos" per Clemencic Consort, tant mai per li comentaires en occitan que per la musica. Quan jo aprendi legir (no pas parlar o chantar) l'occitan medieval durant li anys 70 he comprat lou libre "Introduction À l'Étude de l'Ancien Provençal" de Hamlin, Ricketts & Hathaway, e la coencidença estraoerdinari es que li textes aprofeichats per Clemencic son li meteix que vegés dins l'Introduction.

Certs trobadors furent plan senalats, com lou coms Guilhem de Peitieus ('Poitiers'), que èra tanbé Duc d'Aquitania. Ac per moiller Filipa de Normandia e li dos aguèron una filha, Alienor d'Aquitania - fòrça bona poetessa - que fo de primas la moiller dou rei Loís VII de França, dempuèi dei rei Enric d'Engleterra ... e aiçò bailét als reis d'Engleterra una revendicament per la tròn da França que menèt ultimament a la guerra de cent anys. Guilhem èra tenbén conegut com "(un) dels majors trichadors de dompnas". Tenèm de el onze cançons, tel

Ab la dolchor del temps novel
Foillo li bosc, et li aucel
chanton, chascus en lor lati.


Anèm! en mi païs Dainamark jamai mai ai escotat li aucel chantar en lati ! Quals aucels ben aletrats que tendia Aquitania dou temps dels trobadors!

Autres trobadors éran mens afortunats - com Bernat de Ventadorn, dou qual uns Peire d'Alvergne escrívèt

Lo terz Bernatz de Ventadorn
(...)
sa mair' escaudava•l forn,
e•l pair' dusia l'essermen.


Mas de qi q'el fos fils, lou libre ditz que "Dieus li det bella persona et avinen, e gentil cor, (...) e det li sen e saber e cortesia e gen parlar, et aveia sotilessa et art de trobar bos motz e gais sons". E no causèt cap guèrra...

E ara alguns collègues de Bernatz: Betran de Born, Cercamon, Guiraut de Borneil, Jaufre, Marcabrun, Peire Vidal, Raimbaut de Vaqueiras e la condesa de Dia.

Trovadors (Clemencic C).jpg
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Vos prègui que em desencusatz per escriure en una lenga pas ofertat de Google translate .... :oops:
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Iversen
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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby Iversen » Mon Dec 30, 2019 9:21 pm

OK, still in France, but now after the crusade against the albigensians and cathars and other religious groups in Southern France, which Northern France with the blessing of the pope used as an excuse for smashing the Occitan culture and leaving the whole territory as a smoking battle field, insterspersed with depopulated ruin towns (like Beziers, where the whole population of some 20.000 souls to the last child were butchered by the pious papal soldiers, headed by Arnald Amalaricus, Abbot of Citeaux).

While Southern France was burning a few more Northerly composers with connections to the Notre Dame cathedral produced religious music that still may be remembered by a few scholars - names like Leonin and Pérotin come to mind.

FR: Monsieur Leonin a publié en 1160 un livre nommé "Magnus liber organi", mais n'attendez mie que ce soit une collection de pièces pour l'orgue (ou 'les orgues', comme on dit en France). La première orgue dans l'église de Notre Dame serait batie au 12. siècle par monsieur Schambantz en 1403, et celle qui est là de nos jours fut bâtie en 1868 par le célèbre Aristide Cavaillé-Colle. Non, malheureusement le livre de Leonin ne contient rien que de la musique vocale (y inclu quelques pièces de monsieur Pérotin), et pour cette raison j'ai peu de choses a dire là-dessus - sauf que la musique sonne comme s'il y avait beaucoup de quintes parallèles dedans. Plus tard on a sévèrement condamné cette manière de mener les voix, et justement pour cette raison la musique de Leonin et Pérotin sonne comme quelque chose d'une periode très éloignée.

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La "Messe de Notre-Dame" qui fut écrite un siècle plus tard par monsieur Machaut, a aussi un peu de cette atmosphère austère et vétuste, - or l'église en cause ici n'était point Notre-Dame en Paris comme on pourrait le croire, mais la cathédrale de Rheims. Et il represente la soi-disant "Ars Nova" (comme sucesseur de l'Ars Antiqua de Léonin et Pérotin), dont les plus importantes améliorations - avec les mots de Wikipédia furent "la polyphonie, les modes rythmiques, la notation musicale et l'isopériodicité." Isorythmie - c'est quoi? Eh bien, si une voix répète la même figure pendant toute l'oeuvre concernée - normalement un motet - on dit que c'est une pièce isorhytmique. Si on applique cette définition à la lettre même le Boléro de Ravel est isorhytmique, mais généralement la pratique s'éteint vers 1430 - seulement pour être remplacée par cantus firmus, où la melodie dans la voix plus basse sera étirée à l'infini pendant les voix supérieures bougent en valeurs de notes beaucoup plus courtes.

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Les oeuvres de compositeurs comme Dufay, Josquin des Prez, Okeghem, Obrecht, Busnois, Sermisy, di Lasso et Binchois sont extremement polyphoniques et utilisent souvent des rhythmes très compliqués dans les voix supérieures. Heureusement beaucoup d'ensembles ont fait des enregistrements instrumentaux, mais je voudrais donner la place d'honneur à un homme totalement inconnu nommé Ernst Stolz qui a publié un nombre stupéfiant de pièces sur Youtube - et presque toujours il joue toutes les voix lui-même. Écoutez par example le livre de 'pseaumes' écrits par Nicolas Gombert pour la congrégation calviniste de Genève - et joués par monsieurs E.Stolz, E.Stolz, E.Stolz, E.Stolz et E.Stolz..

Demain je ne puis exclure la possibilité que je choisisse d'écrire une sorte de sommaire de 2019 pendant le dernier soir de l'année, mais alors je vais retourner la prochaine soirée pour vous raconter un peu plus sur les oeuvres purement instrumentales de cette periode, y inclu les canzonas et sonates de Gabrieli et ses contemporains. Mais personne ne vous empêche de les écouter déjà ce soir. Mieux aujourd'hui que dans la prochaine année...

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PS: remarquez qu'il y a maintenant cinq lignes dans chaque système (partie)! On se rapproche des temps modernes!
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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby Iversen » Tue Dec 31, 2019 6:14 pm

OK, it'll be one more section of the musical history of the Western World and no new years message in a zillion languages as I originally had planned. The content of such a message would basically be: language A - done nothing because I have spent too much time on music; language B - done nothing because I have spent too much time on music; language C - done nothing because I have spent too much time on music and so forth. The situation concerning my music collection right now is that I basically have got all the items I want (enough for the rest of my life), and now I just have to jot the main themes down for the items I have added within the last year or so. This will of course disturb my listening to both TV and internet sources, but not to the extent that I can't take a day off and do a marathon listening session.

But you see, it would be a very boring post if I had to formulate the same message in somewhere between 25 and 30 languages, so let's instead take a leap back to renaissance Italy to meet ..

IT: il magnifico canzoniero Giovanni Gabrieli. Nacque probabilmente a Venezia, lasciò la città un tempo breve per studi con Orlando di Lasso in Monaco (München), ma ritornò alla città i 1581 dove ottenne il posto prestigiozo come organista principale a San Marco (con un lavoro secondario come organista presso la Scuola Sa Rocco). E qui iniziò a sperimentare con musica strumentale stereofonica: se ci fosse per esempio 8 voci in una sua canzone, potrebbe mettere quattro a sinistra e quattro a destra e la congregazione di ascolto nel mezzo della chiesa. E probabilmente questo ha reso perplessi alcuni dei chierici più tradizionali, ma il nuovo suono è diventato molto popolare cogli veneziani, e molti compositori stranieri si sono riversati a Venezia per imparare l'arte dal maestro stesso.

La parola "canzona" indica che originalmente era una una canzone cantata, ma già con il zio di Giovanni, Andrea Gabrieli, si e comminciato di scrivere canzoni senza parole e cantatori, ma invece con una varietà di strumenti. Ci erano evidentemente tromboni e trombe (che non avevano ancora valvole), ma anche gli cornetti ("Zink" nella lingua tedesca) che erano una specie di trombe di legno ricoperte di cuoio con fori per le dita. C'erano strumenti a corda (viole da gamba) e flauti dolce. Molto raramente è stato indicato chi dovrebbe suonare la musica - da Giovanni Giovanni c'è una sola sonata detta "per tre violini", e questa è una rara eccezione. Il che anche significa che oggi si può ascoltare le canzoni e sonate di Gabrieli in versioni con combinazioni di strumenti molto diverse (il che mi piace).

C'erano anche compositori de musica instrumentale. Si puo menzionare il Gioseffo Guami (un po' più vecchio di Giovanni G), Pietro Lappi, Legrenzi, Negri, Lappi, Guami, Merulo, Merula, Canova da Milano and Ludovico Grossi da Viadana tra molti altri, ma come ho già detto, anche alcuni stranieri. Il ré Christiano IV di Danimarca a pagato il viaggio più spese per una folla di compositori danesi (come Morgens Pedersøn, Hans Nielsen, Melchior Borchgrevinck e Hans Brachrogge), ed altri sono fluirono a Venezia dai Paesi Bassi, per esempio il signor ..

DU: Adriaan Willaert, rond 1490 in Rumbeke in Vlaanderen geboren, darnaa jurastudies in Parijs, maar hij voltooide die studies niet omdat hij 1515 naar Italië trok om muziek te spelen, eerst naar Rome en daarna naar Ferrara en Milano, maar in 1527 werd hij benoemd tot kapelmeester van de San Marco-basiliek in Venetië, en hij verblijf daar tot zijn dood in 1562.

De musikers van deze oude dagen waren verbluffend kosmopolitisch (gezien de moeilijkheden om het reizen te doen): ze namen graag werk bij een forst of kerk in een heel ander land dan hun thuisstad, en een goed voorbeeld is de al genoemde Orlando di Lasso. Hij was om 1532 in Bergen in Henegouwen (nu in België) geboren en werkte als koorknab Roland de Lâtre in Bergen. Maar (citeerd uit Wikipedia) "de vicekoning van Sicilië nam de jongen, na toestemming van zijn ouders, mee naar Italië. Hij bleef daar onder de naam Orlando di Lasso tot 1550. Nadat hij de baard in de keel had gekregen werd hem een aanstelling in Parijs aangeboden. Vervolgens werd hij in 1553 kapelmeester van Sint Jan van Lateranen in Rome. Hij reisde door Frankrijk en Engeland en bleef in 1555 hangen in Antwerpen. Hier publiceerde hij zijn eerste vierstemmige madrigalen, gelijktijdig met de publicatie van zijn eerste vijfstemmige madrigalen in Venetië. In 1556 benoemde Albrecht V, de hertog van Beieren, hem tot lid van de hofkapel te München, waarvan hij vier jaar later leider werd en bleef tot zijn dood" (1594). Mynheer Lasso staat ook bekend als een van de meest productieve componisten aller tijden - maar helaas bijna uitsluitend van vocale muziek.

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GR: Με την ευκαιρία, από τότε που έγραψα τις παραπάνω γραμμές, έχω άκουσα μία ώρα στο Youtube για τις σκουληκότρυπες στα ελληνικά. Είμαι χαρούμενος που ήξερα κάτι ήδη, γιατί σίγουρα δεν κατάλαβα τα πάντα.

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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby lichtrausch » Tue Dec 31, 2019 8:58 pm

Have you written anywhere a self-assessment of your writing level for the different languages you write your log in? I'm interested in this because I enjoy reading your log, but I have generally avoided reading the entries you write in languages which I myself have a low level in, such as the Romance languages. This is because my own level is too poor to notice any errors you might make, so I am concerned about internalizing these potential errors. I would however like to read entries you write in languages where the errors are infrequent.

Iversen wrote:definitely not my kind of music, but if you can't restrain your curiosity you can hear a reconstruction here - with remarks about performance practice, instrument building and sundry other things. The first 4 seconds features nice sounds emanating from a double aulos, but then the singers start to interfere (oh my god, as the Americans say) - and from then on it's pure mayhem!

Fascinating. I feel transported back to Ancient Greece.
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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby Iversen » Wed Jan 01, 2020 12:44 pm

I don't think you need to worry about reading texts in languages where your level is low as long as you don't use them for intensive study - and I seriously doubt that anyone would use my log as a resource for intensive studies when there are so many texts written by capable native speakers to choose from. But I learn a lot by writing in my weak languages, and I think it is fun to do so.

Besides I expect readers to use Google translate to help them through passages in languages they can't read without help - not as a substitute for reading the original text (although that may be necessary with totally incomprehensible languages), but as a way to get through problematic passages and/or to confirm that your guesses are correct - that's also how I use it with this forum.

As for my level in different langues ... well, I normally say that I have done monolingual trips in 11½ language, with Esperanto being the half because there isn't any country where it is the majority language. Therefore I have spoken 100% Esperanto within the confines of so far five conference venues (and sporadically during six gatherings), but something else outside. A monolingual trip is not just a trip where I buy stuff in the local language, but a language where I refuse to speak to local people in anything but the local language, where I try only to read and watch TV in the local language and where I even try to switch my thinking to that language. However I have to admit that I sometimes have written in other languages in first HTLAL and now LLORG during my travels, and I have also sometimes spoken to other tourists and expats in non-local languages (though I do try to avoid it).

On top of that there are of course languages where I don't feel that I could do a fullscale conversation, and then I may buy stuff or speak to receptionists or read newspapers or try to think in the local language, but it won't count as a monolingual trip. Like Greek, where I went almost fully 'Greek' the last day of my stay after the conference in Thessaloniki, but then I had to fly home. Buggers..

At home I hardly ever speak foreign languages (except during the Monday language cafés which I have mention a couple of times in this log) so therefore it becomes even more important for me to keep writing in those languages.

Lichtrausch asked for a self-assessment of my writing level in the different languages in which I have written my log. Actually I have written something like an annual report each year, with new year 2018-19 on page 104 being the so far latest, but not as a strict self-assessment. I can judge how freely I can write in different languages, but especially in the weak ones I can't spot my own errors, and then it is of course impossible for me to assess my level. The only thing I can say is that I'm certain that some of my scribblings must be full of errors - but particularly in those languages it is important for my learning process to be productive so I don't intend to stop writing in them. For instance I recently w.... no, let's take the languages one by one (and then I have delivered my annual report and have a clean conscience again).


Standard Danish (well, I had to start somewhere): Som dansker kan jeg naturligvis skrive side op og side ned på almindeligt standard-dansk, men det føles lidt som snyd at gøre det på et sprogforum. Hvad værre er: jeg kan ikke tale eller skrive på vores dialekter, men det har ikke afholdt mig fra at forsøge. I tidligere år har jeg skrevet ting på Sønderjysk ('Synnejysk') fra det sydlige Jylland, men her i 2019 har jeg kun prøvet at skrive en smule på vestjydsk, nemlig den følgende passage her på LLORG:

Western Jutish: A håhr skrewen en kort snak å westjysk på æ siij 121, efter at te a hat wåt på Hjerl Heej, som er en frilandsmuseum i æ omegn a Skyyw. A håhr ett skrewen nowed som helst å Synnejysk i 2019, men a håhr gjorn det tidliger.
... in Standard Danish: jeg har skrevet en kort 'snak' på vestjysk på side 121, efter at (til at) jeg havde været på Hjerl Hede, som er et frilandsmuseum i omegnen af Skive.

Norsk: Eg har veldig lyst til å lære å snakke norsk, og eg ka skjøne nesten alt som blir sagt på norsk rikskringkasting sjøl om det siges på et utall dialekter. Men varianten eg vil skrive er nynorsk (som berre brukes av rundt 15% av befolkningen), og eg savna ei god stor ordbok fra noe annet til nynorsk for å lage mine uunnværlige ordlister. Derfor er ikkje norsk på lista over mine språk.

Swedish: Det händer att svenskar inte förstår talade danska, och därför föredrar jag att tala svenska med dem (definitivt inte engelska!!). Mitt svenska ordförråd är OK och jag förstår nästan allt på svensk TV (utom tänkandet hos deras politiker), men det sägas att min prosodi är avgjort usvensk.

Icelandic: Íslenskan mín fékk blómstra á fjölmenningarráðstefnunni í Reykjavík, en síðan þá hef ég ekki gert nóg með þetta tungumál. Þó hef ég hlustað á RUV á netinu og skrifað nokkrar línur af texta hér á LLORG, og ég ráfaði nýlega um nokkrar klukkustundir og hugsaði á íslensku (holu og
með mörgum villum, en betra en ekkert).

English: Well, I think in English right now, and it definitely is one of my major languages. But I can't tell you what my level is (except that it must be C something) - others have to do that for me.

Scots: Ah, ah'm fain o this leed, but 'tis muckle haird tae find onything scrieved in it, and ah cannae separate the deealects so my writins are shuir tae be not anely full o mistakes, but forby a gyre blaand o awthing ah hae iver herd or seen.

Irish: Sos ceart anois...

Platt: Nich veel te seggen. Ek höff annerdags een Poor stunden Platt op Youtube höört og dat meeste good verstaan, aver ek bün nich bannig actief.

(Hoch)Deutsch: Hier geht's besser. Ich sehe ganz oft Deutsches Fernsehen und lese auch ganz viel auf Deutsch, und ich reise auch gern in deutschsprechende Gebiete, so ich weiß, daß ich diese Sprache fliessend sprechen und schreiben kann - aber fehlerfrei? Das ist was anders...

Dutch: Dit jaar ben ik niet in Nederland of Vlaanderen geweest, dus ik heb mijn spreekvaardigheid niet getestet - maar ik hou van op Nederlands /Vlaams te lezen, en ik schrijf ook regelmatig in de taal - en dat is geen probleem, behalve dat ik waarschijnlijk veel fouten maak. Ik heb waarschijnlijk ook een aantal blunders in deze korte tekst gemaakt.

Afrikaans: Ek het nie Zuidafrika in 2019 besoek nie, maar ek het onlangs baie ure met "die Taal wat ons praat" geluister (en 'n paar uure van praat oor taal afgelaai vir later brug). Ek kan daarin skryf, maar waarskynlik met elke invloede uit 't Nederlands

Lat: Latine sermone scribere possum, sed non sine multum errare, quia non satis lego et quasi numquam ausculto.

French: J'ai étudié cette langue à l'université pendant les années 70, mais ça fait beaucoup d'années que je ne l'ai pas étudiée d'une manière systématique et ces jours je fais définitivement plus d'erreurs que je ne pourrait me permettre dans les jours d'antan. De plus, je préfère la langue écrite à la language parlée, et justement avec le français les deux sont très differentes.

Ancient French: Gié puis l'ancien françois lire, et gié itant onques dans icel languaige escrit, mais avec maint error char ne ay bon dictionaire.

Occitan: Ieu pòdi legir lou Occitan, mas besonhavi un diccionari e Verbix e lou mou livre amb poesia per autrièr escriure sus la musica dous trobadors.

Catalan: Amb el català estic de nou en territori conegut. Vaig aprendre el català la primera vegada en cursos en els anys 70, i avui en dia hi ha molts textos bons per estudiar a Internet. Jo no he visitat Catalunya en el any 2019 (i a propòsit: es diu que els barcelonins estan molt cansats dels turistes), però hi he estat moltes vegades abans i és un dels idiomes en la llista de les llengues que jo reclamo que puc parlar.

Castillian/Spanish: Un idioma más que he usado recientemente para viajar - en este caso se trata de un viaje a Gran Canaria. Puedes viajar a esta isla en un viaje charter sin hablar español porque a lo largo de la costa sur hay tantos turistas que puedes alimentar a los cerdos con ellos (desculpe a los vegetarianos - este es un dicho danés que he traducido directamente al español). Pero eso es exactamente la razón porqué elegí un hotel en Las Palmas en el extremo norte de la isla, y allá se habla español.

Portuguese: Outro idioma que eu tenho treinado num viagem, neste caso para Recife e Natal no Brasil, com passeios em Lisboa na viagens de ida e de regresso. Teve a vantagem de eu poder ouvir dialetos de ambos os lados do Atlântico, mas também significa que a minha própria versão da linguagem é um tanto confusa.

Italian: L'italiano è anche una delle mie "vecchie" lingue che ho iniziato a studiare da bambino con un libro di corso come unica fonte. Non ho visitato l'Italia nel 2019, ma molte volte negli anni precedenti - e ho appena scritto algo sulla musica rinascimentale italiana, quasi senza uso del dizionario (ma ho dato più di un'occhiata nella Wikipedia). Ho anche lavorato un po 'con la lingua sarda, ma non la conosco abbastanza bene per usarla.

Romanian: Altă limbă 'vechi', pe care l-am învăț la universitate (trei ani, din care doi ani singur cu un profesor nativ) - dar folosesc aceata limbă foarte rar și a devenit oarecum fragil.

Modern Greek: Ευτυχώς, η σύγχρονη ελληνική γλώσσα δημοτική είναι πολύ απλούστερη από την αρχαία ελληνική, και την μελέτησα για τόσο πολύ καιρό που μπορώ σχεδόν να την χρησιμοποιήσω στην πράξη - και μπορώ να διαβάσω το πρότυπο μη μυθοπλασίας στο επίπεδο των περιοδικών της Βικιπαίδειας ή των αεροπορικών περιοδικών.

Albanian: Jo shumë, por përpiqem ta mësoj..

Bulgarian: Всъщност прекарах доста време в този славянски език, който вече не огъва съществителните си имена - но от друга страна има сложна словесна система. Всъщност не е толко трудно за четене, но ми трябват зелените ми листове и речник да ги напиша..

Serbian: Исти ниво као и бугарски (мада сам га почео проучавати и раније). Имам црногорске и хрватске ТВ канале, али говорне језике је тешко разумјети. Текст је лакши.

Slovak: Prvýkrát som získal slovníky pre slovenčinu v roku 2018, keď som sa naposledy zúčastnil 'gathering' v Bratislave. Dokážem ju prečítať (s určitými ťažkosťami), ale píšem iba pomocou slovníka a zelených gramatických listov..

Polish: Vlastne som zanedbával poľský v roku 2019 (napriek pobytu na jar), ale obnovím moje vedomosti do roku 2020. Mám poľský televízny kanál, ale nerozumiem.

Russian: Русский был моим первым славянским языком - я покупал книги в 1981-1982 годах, но не успел выучить язык до того, прежде чем прекратил все языковые исследования. Русский был моим первым славянским языком - я покупал книги в 1981-1982 годах, но не успел выучить язык до того, как прекратил все языковые занятия. Я переучиваю его в течение нескольких лет, но не очень активно, и у меня нет телевизионного канала, и я не посещал Россию после 2008 года. Поэтому я (почти) не говорю по-русски, но могу писать - используя словарь (и со многими ошибками).

Esperanto: Mi povas paroli Esperanton en favoraj kondiĉoj, sed ĝi estas fragila lingvo. Se aliaj (aŭ mi mem) parolas pli fortajn lingvojn, Esperanto perdas la batalon. Tamen eĉ malmulte da preparo faras miraklojn.

Indonesian: Bahasa Indonesia adalah satu-satunya bahasa Asia saya dan saya mempelajarinya secara berkala - terutama ketika saya menemukan teks yang menarik. Di lain waktu hampir tertidur.

Godt nytår til Eder alle - Prosit Neujahr - Happy Neujahr - Feliz Año Nuevo ... one minut, when is it the Chinese have got their New Years celebrations? I was in Vietnam once (NOT January 1.), and they said something like Chuc Mung Nam Moi. Whether that's the new year associated with a specific animal or not Ah dunnoo..

Fyrværkeri.jpg
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lichtrausch
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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby lichtrausch » Wed Jan 01, 2020 9:42 pm

Thanks! I have a habit of unconsciously imitating content I consume, whether intensively or extensively, and I don't find much time to consume content in Romance languages (I've been consumed by Korean and Chinese for the past couple years), hence my concern. But I should probably not worry too much since I'm not going to be producing much in the way of Romance languages any time soon anyway.

Iversen wrote:Godt nytår til Eder alle - Prosit Neujahr - Happy Neujahr - Feliz Año Nuevo ... one minut, when is it the Chinese have got their New Years celebrations? I was in Vietnam once (NOT January 1.), and they said something like Chuc Mung Nam Moi. Whether that's the new year associated with a specific animal or not Ah dunnoo..


The Year of the Rat (鼠) will start on January 25th, and Chúc Mừng Năm Mới can be used independent of the year's specific animal. Ich hoffe du bist gut ins neue Jahr gerutscht.
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Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=1027
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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby Iversen » Thu Jan 02, 2020 5:06 pm

GER: Gut gerutscht, aber jetzt ..

EN: Back to the history of music. In the previous episode I wrote about the Italian canzona etc. composers whose activity ran from approximately mid 16. century to the mid 17. century. This means that I have to go a little bit backwards in time to tell about the English virginalists, and I have also some early keyboard and music for plucked string instruments to tell about. And as if that wasn't enough there are also some dance music composers in places like Germany, the Low Countries and Italy to rescue from oblivion, so the only certain thing is that we'll start somewhere in the 16. century. OK, let start with the dances:

IT: Chi già conosceva il signor Giorgio Mainerio? Nacque a Parma nel 1535, poi visse a Udine e morì in 1582 ad Acquileia, uno dei diversi luoghi di balneazione in cui cercò invano de rimediare alla sua salute fragile. Pubblicò molto musica sacra, ma oggi soltanto il suo "Primo libro de' balli" importa - bella musica. Ma aveva anche un interesse tutt'altro: l'occultismo. E quando cominciarono di circolare rumori su fiere notturne del diavolo e simile, la inquisizione iniziò un processo contra lui. Por qualche ragione sconosciuta questo processo non fu mai completato, e sul il pretesto di perdere una competizione di lavoro, Mainerio si trasferì sapientemente ad Aquileia, da dove fece viaggi di cura per altre città - ma non ritornò mai a Udine.

Rispetto a questo, pare che la vita di Salomone Rossi sia andata più agevolmente e senza intoppi - almeno fino al 1630, quando le truppe austriache catturarono Ferrare, deposero la famiglia Gonzaga e distrussero il ghetto ebraico dove viveva l'infortunato signor Rossi.

Un terzo compositore italiano merita anche di essere menzionato qui (sebbene principalmente scriveva madrigali): Carlo Gesualdo da Venosa, Principe di Venosa - noto per aver ucciso sua moglie e il suo amante quando li catturò 'in flagrante' e per aver gettato i corpi spudorati e mutilati nella strada. Ma poiché lui era nobile, gli omicidi non furono puniti. La cosa più strana è che si riuscito da sposarsi di nuovo. Con la sua seconda moglie Ludovico si alloggiava in un castello di Ferrara, dove si isolava quasi totalmente mentre componeva madrigali deliranti e dissonanti. Il matrimonio andò male (leggi: violenza domestica) e la moglie fuggì a Parma, mentre Ludovico affondò nella depressione a tal punto da assumere gente per frustarlo. Diagnosi: pazzo furioso. Lasciamo l'Italia mentre siamo ancora vivi...

DU: Nederland had zijn gouden eeuw na de Spaanse eeuw, en er kwamen onder andere enkele ijverige uitgevers op - zoals Tielman Susato (Tylman of Tielmann), geboren in Soest, Duitsland. Hij heeft werke van vooral nederlandse polyfonisten als "Josquin des Prez, Orlandus Lassus, Cypriano de Rore, Adriaan Willaert, Thomas Crecquillon en (..) de Franse componist Clement Janequin" (list uit Wikipedia). OK, "Willaert" ziet er behoorlijk Nederlands uit, maar de namen toonen aan dat componisten uit Nederland als bijen uit een bijenkorf zwermden. Josquin des Prez werd waarschijnlijk in Doornik geboren, Cyprien De Rore in Ronse (Vlanderen) geboren, Orlando di Lasso (als Roland de Lâtre) in Bergen in Henegouwen en Thomas Crecquillon ergens in Vlaanderen - maar hij was de enige van de genoemde die in Nederland/Vlaanderen bleef (ondanks zijn Franse naam).

Tielman Susato heeft zich de onvergankelijke glorie in de wereld van muziek inlagt door het publiceren van "Het derde musyck boexken Dansrye. Hij heeft zelf nauwelijks iets van de muziek geschreven, maar degene van wie hij geleend heeft zijn allemaal dood, dus vandaag kunnen we al met een goed geweten van de muziek genieten.

GER: Sein etwas jüngerer Kollege Michael Praetorius aus Deutschland veröffentlichte unter dem Titel "Musae Sioniae" eine ganze Reihe von Büchern mit Liedern und desgleichen, von denen er wahrscheinlich vieles selbst schrieb. Hier liegen seine Orgelwerke begraben. Außerdem schrieb er ein kleines Postil mit 300 Tänze namens "Terpsichore" - und dies ist sein bekanntestes Werk als Komponist. Kurz vor seinem Tod begann er ein weiteres Mammutwerk: "Syntagma Music", wo er ALLES über die Musikinstrumente und die Kompositionstechnik der Renaissance erklärte. Es war noch nicht fertig, als er gestorben ist, aber trotzdem ist dies unsere wichtigste Quelle des Wissens über die Musik seiner Zeit.

EN And finally a (probably) somewhat unexpected composer of delightful dance music: the notorious Henry VIII of England. But I'll return to Britain with a vengeance in a later installment of this series. So let Henry rest in peace in Westminster Abbey - which actually isn't an abbey anymore. It was Henry himself who abolished the monasteries and abbeys, but traditions die slowly in England.

Below you see a lot of musical instruments from Syntagma Musicum - too many to explain in details. I would however mention a few things. You see some crooked instruments to the left: Those are crumhorns, and they have a double reed as an oboe, but it is placed inside a little box which totally prevents the player from producing sweet and mellow sounds. A related instrument had everything curled up inside inside a small barrel so that the player could cover the holes, and the result is that this tiny instrument can produce a totally unexpected deep harsh burp. A third instrument was the serpent (bottom left), which had the shape of a snake - again in order to put the holes within reach of the player. It made a belated reappearence in the film score to "Beneath the Reef" by B.Herrmann. The instruments above the serpent are cornettos (German "Zink") which I mentioned in my rant about Venetian music. You may also notice the bagpipes in the middle frame.

As for the string instruments you see viola da gambas in different sizes and a number of instruments from the violin family. One way of distinguishing them is to look at the neck of each instrument: if the body slopes gently towards the neck then the instrument is from the gamba family. And lo and behold: this means that our contemporanous doublebass actually is a surviving dinosaur, a monster gamba that managed to sneak along with the violins, violas and 'cellos into the modern world! Who would have thought that?

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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby Iversen » Fri Jan 03, 2020 8:16 pm

And now for the daily dosis of musical history. We are still in the 16. century, but this time in Spain, NOT Italy.

SP: En los años después la reconquista los reyes católicos (Ferran y Isabela) intentaron purgar su pais de toda tendencia secular y, especialmente, cualquier sombreado de tendencias islámicas o judías. En este clima, por supuesto, la música de la iglesia era el área de trabajo más importante del compositor, pero también fue el período en que aparecieron los primeros compositores importantes especializados en la música para instrumentos relacionados con la guitarra - y esta música evidentemente fue escribo para tocar al domicilio.

En el hecho los instrumentos pizzicados con dedo o púa ya existían desde la antigüedad - incluso precursores de la guitarra moderna - pero a la corte española fue la vihuela que prevaleció, y la guitarra se convirtió en el instrumento de las clases bajas. En el resto de Europa fue, de otro lado, el laúd que se convirtió en instrumento dominante - incluyendo archilaudes gigantes y teorbos. Hoy en día puedes escuchar la misma pieza de música jugado con todos estos instrumentos, pero, por supuesto, son principalmente los músicos profesionales que poseen un laúd o una vihuela.

La obra de esta literatura de vihuela que realmente eclipsa todo fue escrita por Alonso Mudarra y lleva el título imponente: "Fantasía que contrahaze la arpa en la manera de Ludovico" (de los "Tres libros de música en cifras para vihuela") - y para arpa aqui. Desafortunadamente, la mejor grabación no hay en Youtube: fue hecha por la banda de rock Skye (incluido el guitarrista John WIlliams). Usted puede leer mas (en Inglés) sobre esta fantasia aqui, y por consequencia solo me gustaría mencionar que Ludovico probablemente era certo arpista italiano a la corte de Ferran de Aragón que tenía la costumbre de tocar disonancias impactantes. Y Mudarra hace uso de este traje en un grado extremo en su fantasía numero X.

El resto de las composiciones de Mudarra y de sus sus colegas (como Luys de Milán, Enríquez de Valderrábano, Diego Pisador, Miguel de Fuenllana y Luis de Narváez) son menos espectaculares, pero una vez que escuchaste a los primeros ciento (o más), comienzas a apreciar las pequeñas diferencias.

Kunst053.JPG
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CAT: Potser cal esmentar que la meva pintura per sobre il·lustra una obra filosòfica del mestre catalan Ramón LLull, però hi ha un instrument musical de l'època pe damunt, així que espero que pot ser acceptat així...

SP:La música de teclado en España también ganó impulso durante este período, al menos la música de órgano que obtuvo su primer gran maestro en Antonio de Cabezón (a pesar de su ceguera). He discutido algunos aspectos de la denominación de tubos de órganos españoles aquí en LLORG en noviembre de 2015, por desgracia en inglés, pero por lo menos con una discusión sobre el contenido del gran órgano de la catedral de Madrid. Espero que se pueda aceptar también esto, a pesar de la discrepancia lingüística.

POR: Eu queria en el hecho ilustrar esse texto com a imagem de um órgão espanhol com tubos de trombeta horizontais, mas então me lembrei de uma foto que tirei na igreja de Santa Cruz em Coimbra, Portugal. E sim, também havia excelentes compositores portugueses para orgão, mas nunca se tornaram tão conhecidos quanto o senor Cabezón e seus colegas espanhóis. No entanto, o tipo de órgão é o mesmo:

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