Mork the Fiddle's 2019 Log

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MorkTheFiddle
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Posts: 2113
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Location: North Texas USA
Languages: English (N). Read (only) French and Spanish. Studying Ancient Greek. Studying a bit of Latin. Once studied Old Norse. Dabbled in Catalan, Provençal and Italian.
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 11#p133911
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Re: Mork the Fiddle's 2019 Log

Postby MorkTheFiddle » Sun Sep 11, 2022 5:35 pm

Ancient Greek
Forgot to mention yesterday I resumed my story-telling experiment, but this time using Alaart’s advice to Rdearman about constructing simple sentences.

My first attempt is

ἡ γυνή κατέβη χξές εἰς τὴν ἀγορᾶν μετὰ Πολέμαρχου.
The woman went down to the marketplace yesterday with Polemarchus.

The “ κατέβη χξές εἰς τὴν ἀγορᾶν” idea is cadged from the first sentence of the first book of Plato’s Republic.
[327α]
Σωκράτης
κατέβην χθὲς εἰς Πειραιᾶ μετὰ Γλαύκωνος τοῦ Ἀρίστωνος . . .


And I’ve come up with some useful alternatives to the phrase εἰς τὴν ἀγορᾶν from TLG:

εἰς τὴν Ξέρξου διάβασιν in Xerxes’s crossing
πόλην city
ὀδόν way
ἐλευθερίαν freedom
ἀκρόπολιν acropolis
κλίνην bed
ψυχὴν soul, life
λίμνην lake

(Note that these words, like all Ancient Greek words, have 1000s of other meanings. :) )

Also there is another easy alternative to κατέβη, which would be ἀνέβη, ‘went up’ rather than ‘down.’
Here's hoping one new sentence per day won't tax my memory too much. :roll:
9 x
Many things which are false are transmitted from book to book, and gain credit in the world. -- attributed to Samuel Johnson

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MorkTheFiddle
Black Belt - 2nd Dan
Posts: 2113
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2015 8:59 pm
Location: North Texas USA
Languages: English (N). Read (only) French and Spanish. Studying Ancient Greek. Studying a bit of Latin. Once studied Old Norse. Dabbled in Catalan, Provençal and Italian.
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 11#p133911
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Re: Mork the Fiddle's 2019 Log

Postby MorkTheFiddle » Sat Sep 24, 2022 7:10 pm

French
To date, the first 5 chapters of the audio for Hugo French In 3 Months.
Exercises 1-1 through 1-3 of Complete French All-in-One

Spanish
The first 5 chapters of the audio for Hugo Spanish In 3 Months.
Exercises 3-3 through 3-5 of Complete Spanish All-in-One
El Amante Japonés by Isabel Allende: now finished 87%, including the death of the aging Isaac.

Ancient Greek
From Sidgwick's Introduction to Greek Prose Composition:
Sections on oratio obliquo, αυτος, and οιος and οσος*. These latter two words always a thorn in my side. Sidgwick's book serves in a way the same purpose as books about usage for modern languages. Kind of a practical grammar. Sidgwick gives plenty of examples of usage, and all of them translated into English.

*Still searching for a proper way to type Ancient Greek in Debian.
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Many things which are false are transmitted from book to book, and gain credit in the world. -- attributed to Samuel Johnson

jeffers
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Learning: The above, plus French (A2-B1), German (A1), Ancient Greek (?), Sanskrit (beginner)
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Re: Mork the Fiddle's 2019 Log

Postby jeffers » Sun Sep 25, 2022 6:40 pm

MorkTheFiddle wrote:Ancient Greek
Forgot to mention yesterday I resumed my story-telling experiment, but this time using Alaart’s advice to Rdearman about constructing simple sentences.

My first attempt is

ἡ γυνή κατέβη χξές εἰς τὴν ἀγορᾶν μετὰ Πολέμαρχου.
The woman went down to the marketplace yesterday with Polemarchus.

The “ κατέβη χξές εἰς τὴν ἀγορᾶν” idea is cadged from the first sentence of the first book of Plato’s Republic.
[327α]
Σωκράτης
κατέβην χθὲς εἰς Πειραιᾶ μετὰ Γλαύκωνος τοῦ Ἀρίστωνος . . .



"χξές" made me panic a bit because I couldn't understand what it meant, let alone pronounce it! Then I read the sentence from Plato below and realized it was a simple typo. :lol:

I fully support your idea of original texts as the basis for your own writing. I did the same for a while about 15 years ago, but my sentences were based on Biblical Greek because it was easy to search for similar examples to what I wanted to write in the English version, and then look up the Greek version.
4 x
Le mieux est l'ennemi du bien (roughly, the perfect is the enemy of the good)

French SC Books: 0 / 5000 (0/5000 pp)
French SC Films: 0 / 9000 (0/9000 mins)

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MorkTheFiddle
Black Belt - 2nd Dan
Posts: 2113
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Location: North Texas USA
Languages: English (N). Read (only) French and Spanish. Studying Ancient Greek. Studying a bit of Latin. Once studied Old Norse. Dabbled in Catalan, Provençal and Italian.
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 11#p133911
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Re: Mork the Fiddle's 2019 Log

Postby MorkTheFiddle » Mon Sep 26, 2022 5:22 pm

jeffers wrote:"χξές" made me panic a bit because I couldn't understand what it meant, let alone pronounce it! Then I read the sentence from Plato below and realized it was a simple typo. :lol:

I fully support your idea of original texts as the basis for your own writing. I did the same for a while about 15 years ago, but my sentences were based on Biblical Greek because it was easy to search for similar examples to what I wanted to write in the English version, and then look up the Greek version.

Sorry for the misdirection. Can χξές even be pronounced?
And thanks for the tip about Biblical Greek with its many memorable stories to imitate.
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Many things which are false are transmitted from book to book, and gain credit in the world. -- attributed to Samuel Johnson

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MorkTheFiddle
Black Belt - 2nd Dan
Posts: 2113
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2015 8:59 pm
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Languages: English (N). Read (only) French and Spanish. Studying Ancient Greek. Studying a bit of Latin. Once studied Old Norse. Dabbled in Catalan, Provençal and Italian.
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 11#p133911
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Re: Mork the Fiddle's 2019 Log

Postby MorkTheFiddle » Sat Oct 01, 2022 5:42 pm

Week of 9/25/2022-10/1/2022
French
Chroniques italiennes de Stendhal 1 c. 20 min Davia
French Conversation: Dialogues en francais around 30 minutes

Spanish
El Amante japonés, Isabel Allende, Location 3072 of 3454, 89%
In a discussion of Alma’s paintings, an observer makes an interesting observation:
Me gustan especialmente tus árboles otoñales que dejan caer sus hojas con gracia. Así deseo desprenderme de mis hojas en este otoño de la vida, con facilidad y elegancia. Location 3067 of 3454

Ancient Greek
Found forgotten on an out of use portable drive exercises and key of First Greek Exercises by A. Sidgwick (although, as one wit has noted, probably not really the first ever Greek Exercises). Simple stuff, good refresher.

More intensive reading of the first 8 chapters of Book 9 of Herodotus, trying to nail down everything.
Watched Herodotus Lecture 10: Croesus, Solon and Human Happiness
by Elizabeth Vandiver, Ph. D. Vandiver explains the anecdote in Herodotus about Croesus and Solon. [The video was on Youtube, but I lost the reference.]

The highlight of the week was restoring Linux Mint Mate to this computer with the help of Windows 7 and then getting LWT with all its Ancient Greek, Spanish and French vocabulary going again. Well maybe: the database is large and the machine is still struggling to restore it.
9 x
Many things which are false are transmitted from book to book, and gain credit in the world. -- attributed to Samuel Johnson

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MorkTheFiddle
Black Belt - 2nd Dan
Posts: 2113
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2015 8:59 pm
Location: North Texas USA
Languages: English (N). Read (only) French and Spanish. Studying Ancient Greek. Studying a bit of Latin. Once studied Old Norse. Dabbled in Catalan, Provençal and Italian.
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 11#p133911
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Re: Mork the Fiddle's 2019 Log

Postby MorkTheFiddle » Sat Oct 08, 2022 5:43 pm

Spanish
Episodio_578-interactuar_en_redes_mezcla.mp3
https://charlashispanas.com/578-como-in ... -sociales/
12:35 minutes
from Kraut, https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... &start=620

Finished El Amante japones by Isabel Allende. In a real book, there are 299 pages.
Probably will move on to another of hers, still mulling it over.

Ancient Greek
Reading still the first chapters of Book 9 of the Histories by Herodotus

Among the passages is this, concerning overtures by the Persians to get the Athenians to join them. After the Persian messenger makes their proposal to the Athenians, one of the Athenians, Lukideos, urges his colleagues to accept the Persian offer. The response of the colleagues is to stone Lukideos to death. Not only that,

[3] γενομένου δὲ θορύβου ἐν τῇ Σαλαμῖνι περὶ τὸν Λυκίδην, πυνθάνονται τὸ γινόμενον αἱ γυναῖκες τῶν Ἀθηναίων, διακελευσαμένη δὲ γυνὴ γυναικὶ καὶ παραλαβοῦσα ἐπὶ τὴν Λυκίδεω οἰκίην ἤισαν αὐτοκελέες, καὶ κατὰ μὲν ἔλευσαν αὐτοῦ τὴν γυναῖκα κατὰ δὲ τὰ τέκνα.
"So after the uproar in Salamis about Lukides, the wives of the Athenians found out what happened, one wife rallied the women and taking on their own initiative the house of Lukides, there stoned to death not just his wife but then also his children."

The word for stoned to death is a compound, κατὰἔλευσαν, split unusually first by the word μὲν, and then only the prepositional prefix is used for the children. I don't know how in English you could do that, but it leaves a powerful impression in the Greek. Hard not to flinch at κατὰ δὲ τὰ τέκνα.
10 x
Many things which are false are transmitted from book to book, and gain credit in the world. -- attributed to Samuel Johnson

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Carmody
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Re: Mork the Fiddle's 2019 Log

Postby Carmody » Sat Oct 08, 2022 8:20 pm

For some reason the writings of the Ancients seem so much more vivid than people writing today............
1 x

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MorkTheFiddle
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Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2015 8:59 pm
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Languages: English (N). Read (only) French and Spanish. Studying Ancient Greek. Studying a bit of Latin. Once studied Old Norse. Dabbled in Catalan, Provençal and Italian.
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 11#p133911
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Re: Mork the Fiddle's 2019 Log

Postby MorkTheFiddle » Sat Oct 15, 2022 5:17 pm

Carmody wrote:For some reason the writings of the Ancients seem so much more vivid than people writing today............
What remains of the Ancients is the crême de la crême collected from hundreds of years of writing. Right off the bat I can think of a few moderns who will join IMHO their company, William Faulkner and Gabriel García Marquéz, Dostoievsky and Tolstoy. Offhand I can't nominate any others, though surely there are some. And I don't want to get into the business of Professor Arguelles's reading list of the greats. My knowledge of world lit is not that wide or deep. Shakespeare probably belongs there and certainly Lady Murasaki, though are they moderns or are they ancients? But again, no debates. Read what you like, is my motto, hang reputations.
4 x
Many things which are false are transmitted from book to book, and gain credit in the world. -- attributed to Samuel Johnson

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MorkTheFiddle
Black Belt - 2nd Dan
Posts: 2113
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2015 8:59 pm
Location: North Texas USA
Languages: English (N). Read (only) French and Spanish. Studying Ancient Greek. Studying a bit of Latin. Once studied Old Norse. Dabbled in Catalan, Provençal and Italian.
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 11#p133911
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Re: Mork the Fiddle's 2019 Log

Postby MorkTheFiddle » Sat Oct 15, 2022 5:24 pm

Week of 10-10-2022 to 10-15-2022

Spanish

Reinstalling LWT on the computer unjammed progress for both Ancient Greek and Spanish. In Spanish lurking in Archived Texts were several pieces I was glad to see again, so that I could resume them: among which are Flor de Mayo by Blasco-Ibañez, the translation "La Mujer del Boticario" by Chekhov, Poesía de Azul by Ruben Darío, Veinte poemas de amor y una canción desesperada by Pablo Neruda, and Fortunata y Jacinta: (dos historias de casadas) by Benito Pérez Galdós. For Fortunata y Jacinta and for the Neruda poems I have also audio. I look forward to getting started on these, some for a second time.

Exercise 7 from (Hugo Spanish in Three Months): 8 of 10 correct, ser vs estar. /rant Spanish teachers and textbooks do not devote nearly enough time to this topic, making things only worse by teaching them both at the same time. end rant/

French
For French unfortunately LWT turned up only the same tired choices. The novels of Hugo, Balzac, Céline, the far too cynical tales of Maupassant, the incomprehensible poetry of Paul Valéry. Members here have mentioned several contempory novels they have liked, so I need to hunt down some of them.
So no progress in French reading this week.

Exercise 3 of Hugo French in Three Months, particles, 3 of 10 correct. /rant French teachers and books do not devote nearly enough time to this tricky concept! endrant/.

Ancient Greek
Finished through Book 9 chapter 59 of the Histories. Included is the amusing tale of the crusty old Spartan captain who refused legitimate orders to fall back because he and his soldiers were in view of the enemy, a no-no for Spartans. The Athenians who were watching and had agreed to replace the Spartans in line mostly shrugged when the body of the Spartans returned to protect the surrounded captain, another instance, the Athenians said, of Spartans saying one thing and doing another. The captain in the meantime picked up a huge rock and planted it at the feet of his commander, saying it was his vote to stay put where he was. Greeks using pebbles for voting purposes.

One is not constrained to believe everything Herodotus says, as some seem to do, anymore than one has to believe that George Washington tossed a silver dollar across the Potomac or that Abe Lincoln walked through a blizzard to return change that a merchant had overpaid him. (Why in a blizzard would the merchant need it?) So the story of the recalcitrant captain sounds like somebody, no necessarily Herodotus, poking fun at the Spartans' expense, because it is a funny story.

Having LWT lets me go back to a comfortable routine. And I now question the wisdom or even the feasibility of learning all the vocabulary before starting. This would work and would seem advisable for a poem from the Greek Anthology or even a shorter dialogue of Plato or maybe even a play.
12 x
Many things which are false are transmitted from book to book, and gain credit in the world. -- attributed to Samuel Johnson

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MorkTheFiddle
Black Belt - 2nd Dan
Posts: 2113
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2015 8:59 pm
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Languages: English (N). Read (only) French and Spanish. Studying Ancient Greek. Studying a bit of Latin. Once studied Old Norse. Dabbled in Catalan, Provençal and Italian.
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 11#p133911
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Re: Mork the Fiddle's 2019 Log

Postby MorkTheFiddle » Sat Oct 22, 2022 4:47 pm

Oct. 16 - Oct 22
Spanish
2/3 exercises per day from Hugo Spanish in Three Months

French
2 or 3 exercises per day from Hugo French in Three Months
My achievements in both Hugos rates below pathetic.

Watched a 5-minute youtube vlog about 'y' and 'en'
Nothing not covered in no doubt dozens of textbooks and not recommended because the topic needs at least 5 weeks, not 5 minutes, but the url is
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9aa2aQkOuk

Ancient Greek
Chapters 60 through 115 in Book 9 of the Histories by Herodotus.
Started working with Word lists for 40 common second aorists. The list I use comes from Enchiridion by Woodward and Pagos, page 22, who call their list Dr. Desmond's "Top 40" Second Aorists. Dr. Desmond? No idea. To help me remember the connection between the aorist and the present, I'm making a table of each word giving the full aorist followed by a row of the full present active indicative (which table I'll have to reconstruct, because the computer crashed before I saved the bit I had started). I'm also using the various games of Study Stack to help me learn and remember. I never get anywhere with ANKI on this sort of thing.
9 x
Many things which are false are transmitted from book to book, and gain credit in the world. -- attributed to Samuel Johnson


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