Mork the Fiddle's 2019 Log

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Crojo
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Re: Mork the Fiddle's 2019 Log

Postby Crojo » Wed Nov 02, 2022 10:02 pm

/rant Spanish teachers and textbooks do not devote nearly enough time to this topic, making things only worse by teaching them both at the same time. end rant/


I completely agree! I cannot tell you how long it took me to realise that all the 'estar' conjugations begin with 'est'. It's a simple thing, I know. But I read several explanations of the difference with 'ser', but wondered for so long how on earth we were supposed to even remember which conjugation went with which infinitive. Never mind which one to use in which context. It seems so obvious now, but its the kind of thing that could be explained as a trick for learning the difference – if the topic got more than a page-or-so or split them up. Now I know: if it means 'to be' but does not begin with 'est' it is a form of 'ser', and vice versa.

How are you finding Hugo, otherwise? I came across an old copy of Hugo: Norwegian in Three Months in a charity shop. From 1958. Naturally, It's now on my shelf, but it will be a long time before I go into it. Are you using the 2022 edition for Spanish?
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MorkTheFiddle
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Posts: 2113
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Languages: English (N). Read (only) French and Spanish. Studying Ancient Greek. Studying a bit of Latin. Once studied Old Norse. Dabbled in Catalan, Provençal and Italian.
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 11#p133911
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Re: Mork the Fiddle's 2019 Log

Postby MorkTheFiddle » Thu Nov 03, 2022 6:28 pm

Crojo wrote:How are you finding Hugo, otherwise? I came across an old copy of Hugo: Norwegian in Three Months in a charity shop. From 1958. Naturally, It's now on my shelf, but it will be a long time before I go into it. Are you using the 2022 edition for Spanish?
My copy of Hugo In Three Months Spanish dates from 2003. A standard workbook with the standard explanations and the standard exercises. Answers to the exercises in the back.
For me just a refresher course to work out the kinks. I have a lot of kinks and plan to go on to Practice Makes Perfect Complete Spanish Grammar. So far I am reminded of all the pitfalls I met the first time around in high school. I know that once upon a time they (mostly) went away, but they're all back now. But it's okay, I knew it would happen. And my goal is just to write a simple email or letter without too many stupid mistakes.
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MorkTheFiddle
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Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 11#p133911
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Re: Mork the Fiddle's 2019 Log

Postby MorkTheFiddle » Sat Nov 05, 2022 4:10 pm

Ancient Greek
Reading: Bouncing around from Plato’s The Apology to The Histories of Thucydides to Book 1 of Plato’s Republic, I settled on the last because there is audio of it, and I have determined to listen as well as read. I also want to incorporate the study of second aorists, as suggested by Woodward and Pagos in their Enchiridion, their (slightly unorthodox) introduction to Ancient Greek.
Useful freely available commentary on Republic is ed. James Adam, Cambridge 1905, The Republic of Plato, Volume 1, Books 1-5, useful freely available translation The Republic of Plato, 3d ed. Trans. Benjamin Jowett. 1888.
Listening: To date I have listened to Tomin’s reading of the first 10 chapters of Book 1 of Thucydides (14:26 min) by Nikolas (?) (Librivox) and 327a1-328b3 of The Republic (3:15) by Tomin.
Using more Study Stack to study the second aorists.
French
I’ve been saying I’ve not read any French for awhile, but it’s not true, because I have been reading La Seconde Guerre mondiale, 1939-1945, by Jean Quellien. Tallendier, 2015, Kindle. I have got in the book to where France has fallen and the world—even Hitler--is wondering what comes next. Standard fare.
Hugo French in Three Months. A grammar workbook Ronald Overy and Jacqueline Lecanuet, DK, London, 2003. I’ve worked my way through Exercise 43 (out of 71), results not stellar. Especially poor among other things on expressions of time, superlatives, the partitive de, expressions with aller, numbers (one thing I forgot is that the French screw up see differently not only 80 but also 60). Not stopping to work on these because I intend to tackle next Practice Makes Perfect: Complete French Grammar and after that the CLE Grammaire progressif du Francais, niveau intermédiare, 2003.
Using LWT I plan to bite the bullet and read poems by Apollinaire and the usual suspects of Baudelaire.
Spanish
Monday, October 24, 2022
Fortunata y Jacinta: (dos historias de casadas) por Benito Pérez Galdós
Parte Primera, i., plus audio 14:38 m
Tuesday, Oct 24, 2022
Parte Primera, ii, audio 10:06 m
Hugo Spanish in Three Months through exercise 31 Lots of bungling as in French, especially demonstatvie pronouns, relative pronouns, ser vs estar (grrr!), indirect objects and direct objects, pluperfect tense, and comparisons. After Hugo moving on to Practice Makes Perfect Complete Spanish Grammar.
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MorkTheFiddle
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Re: Mork the Fiddle's 2019 Log

Postby MorkTheFiddle » Sun Nov 06, 2022 6:51 pm

Yesterday I forgot to mention that I started a novel from the local library by Manuel Rivas called El último día de Terranova. In Spanish but translated from Galician by María Dolores Torres París (Debolsillo, Barcelona, 2015). Though I'm on page 77, I'm still not sure what it's about nor even if it's a novel or a series of short stories. Perhaps that is explained by the fact that I am bumping into a lot of unknown words, at least 3 or 4 per page, and this is a paperback, not an ereader version with quick dictionary look-ups. I also began on the Kindle La Traicion de Rita Hayworth by Manuel Puig, whom I have highly praised before for his Boquitas Pintadas and who is probably most famous for his El beso de la mujer araña. I'm 4% through La Traicion de Rita Hayworth, no sign yet of Rita.
I've also been reading English novels, too. William Faulkner blew me away with The Sound and the Fury, and I much liked his Absalom, Absalom! and several of his short stories. A genius for amalgamating classical and Christian imagery, but I am struggling mightily with Light in August. Though it has shown me that some of Faulkner's roots are in Charles Dickens. That Gabriel García Márquez is in part his progeny is well enough known. If you're thinking about reading him and your skills in reading English are not tops, best not try (though Absalom, Absalom! might be a good entrance).
For pure fun I'm reading a series of hilarious action novels about a bounty agent named Stephanie Plum by Janet Evanovich and a melange of a book called My Italian Bulldozer by Alexander McCall Smith. A good book but his No. 1 Detective Agency books are better.
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Many things which are false are transmitted from book to book, and gain credit in the world. -- attributed to Samuel Johnson

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MorkTheFiddle
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Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 11#p133911
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Re: Mork the Fiddle's 2019 Log

Postby MorkTheFiddle » Sat Nov 12, 2022 5:39 pm

El última día de Terranova, Light in August and My Italian Bulldozer have all been dropped. Life is too short. A book about Faulkner called The Cambridge Companion to William Faulkner edited by Philip M. Weinstein (Cambridge UK, 1996) has an essay called “Faulkner from a European Perspective” by André Bleikasten. He mentions writers influenced by Faulkner: Gabriel García Márquez, of course, as well as Mario Vargas Llosa and Juan Carlos Onetti. I’ve read or at least heard of all three, but he mentions as well four French writers, Louis-René des Forets (should have a circumflex over the o, but I can't find it on the virtual keyboard (and have no idea what a non-pulmonic consonant is)), Claude Simon, Pierre Guyotat, and Pierre Michon. I’ll try to track down some of their work in the original and see what I can make of it. Couple of Germans are specified, as well, Uwe Johnson and Wolfgang Koeppen (all this on page 76 of the Weinstein volume).
In Spanish still reading La Traicion de Rita Hayworth by Manuel Puig La Seconde Guerre Mondial by Jean Quellen. Work continues on Hugo Spanish in Three Months and Hugo French in Three Months. The worst blunders came in Spanish in an exercise covering the conditional of poder, querrer, venir and other verbs. My score on a 12-item quiz was 1 (one) correct.
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Many things which are false are transmitted from book to book, and gain credit in the world. -- attributed to Samuel Johnson

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MorkTheFiddle
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Posts: 2113
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Languages: English (N). Read (only) French and Spanish. Studying Ancient Greek. Studying a bit of Latin. Once studied Old Norse. Dabbled in Catalan, Provençal and Italian.
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 11#p133911
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Re: Mork the Fiddle's 2019 Log

Postby MorkTheFiddle » Sat Nov 19, 2022 6:35 pm

French grammar work on imperfect, conditional tenses; demonstrative pronouns, possessive pronouns; question words; irregular verbs: sentir, servir, partir; plaire; s’asseoir, obtenir, sortir; adverbs of time, place, doubt, manner; reflexive verbs; verbs preceded by prepositions: de, à, pour; order of pronouns; the troublesome pronouns en and y; conjunctions parce que, etc.; numbers over 100; ‘on’and the passive voice
French Reading: continuing Jean Quellen’s Seconde Guerre Mondial: 1939-1945 (15% finished per Kindle)

Spanish grammar exercises on verbs with prepositions; idiomatic use of llevar and hacer to express time; past historic and irregular verbs in the past historic: andar, hacer, venir, estar and others. past historic of ser, ir, dar and stem-changing verbs in past historic; imperfect and past historic contrasted; saber vs conocer (another pair that IMHO should not be taught at the same time); superlatives of adjectives, adverbs, and the absolute superlative; use of the neuter article ‘lo’; por vs para (grrr!); passive voice.
Spanish Reading: continuing Manuel Puig’s Traicion de Rita Hayworth (10% finished per kindle)

Ancient Greek work
Reading the beginning paragraphs of The Republic.
Reading the beginning of the so-called Melian Debate in Book 5 of Thucydides.
Paula Dunbar has a nice commentary on the Debate, Thucydides’ Melian Dialogue: Commentary, Text, and Vocabulary, ISBN 0692772367. I have used it to good advantage when I first read the Debate, though it is no longer in my possession.
I also took the trouble to reformat the dialogue clause by clause to ease processing it.
Few seem to get the irony of the debate: Athens agues the supremacy of force, Melos argues the notion of right, and in the end Athens prevails but might has nothing to do with it. After a couple of stumbling failures to take the town by brute force, Athens finally succeeds by bribing a few of the authorities.

My bumbling about with French and Spanish grammar exercises and my study over the long haul with Ancient Greek make more than clear that whatever others may find, for me comprehensible input is NOT sufficient for producing fluent output, whatever theory may say. Moreover, I rarely make the mistake of soldiering on with texts I don’t like or can’t understand. So, I, MorkTheFiddle, need to study grammar to produce output, simple as that. Sample of one, I know, but in my universe, population of one.

Contrariwise, my stumbling over so many grammar obstacles is also a reminder of why I like to study languages. The differences in ways these languages work fascinates me.
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Many things which are false are transmitted from book to book, and gain credit in the world. -- attributed to Samuel Johnson

Cavesa
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Re: Mork the Fiddle's 2019 Log

Postby Cavesa » Sun Nov 20, 2022 10:28 pm

MorkTheFiddle wrote:My bumbling about with French and Spanish grammar exercises and my study over the long haul with Ancient Greek make more than clear that whatever others may find, for me comprehensible input is NOT sufficient for producing fluent output, whatever theory may say. Moreover, I rarely make the mistake of soldiering on with texts I don’t like or can’t understand. So, I, MorkTheFiddle, need to study grammar to produce output, simple as that. Sample of one, I know, but in my universe, population of one.

Contrariwise, my stumbling over so many grammar obstacles is also a reminder of why I like to study languages. The differences in ways these languages work fascinates me.


You are not the only one :-) My Italian path shows very clearly that I am in a similar situation. I strongly suspect that the people capable of learning and producing output only based on comprehensible input are actually rather rare. For the rest of us, it is just wishful thinking.

But yes, I enjoy grammar, like you. The puzzle, the logic, the beautiful differences that reflect differences in thinking as well.
3 x

Caromarlyse
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(All levels estimates and given as a guide only)
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Re: Mork the Fiddle's 2019 Log

Postby Caromarlyse » Mon Nov 21, 2022 7:59 am

Cavesa wrote:
MorkTheFiddle wrote:My bumbling about with French and Spanish grammar exercises and my study over the long haul with Ancient Greek make more than clear that whatever others may find, for me comprehensible input is NOT sufficient for producing fluent output, whatever theory may say. Moreover, I rarely make the mistake of soldiering on with texts I don’t like or can’t understand. So, I, MorkTheFiddle, need to study grammar to produce output, simple as that. Sample of one, I know, but in my universe, population of one.

Contrariwise, my stumbling over so many grammar obstacles is also a reminder of why I like to study languages. The differences in ways these languages work fascinates me.


You are not the only one :-) My Italian path shows very clearly that I am in a similar situation. I strongly suspect that the people capable of learning and producing output only based on comprehensible input are actually rather rare. For the rest of us, it is just wishful thinking.

But yes, I enjoy grammar, like you. The puzzle, the logic, the beautiful differences that reflect differences in thinking as well.


Me too, on both counts. Not having an explanation feels to me like learning with one hand tied behind my back. And I find grammar interesting (and strangely comforting at times).
2 x

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MorkTheFiddle
Black Belt - 2nd Dan
Posts: 2113
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2015 8:59 pm
Location: North Texas USA
Languages: English (N). Read (only) French and Spanish. Studying Ancient Greek. Studying a bit of Latin. Once studied Old Norse. Dabbled in Catalan, Provençal and Italian.
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 11#p133911
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Re: Mork the Fiddle's 2019 Log

Postby MorkTheFiddle » Mon Nov 28, 2022 8:00 pm

French
Finished 17% of Jean Quellen’s La Seconde Guerre Mondiale, which puts the war in 1940, British fighting Italians in Africa, De Gaulle headquartered in London.
Assembled all the French pdf, mp3, mp4, docx and epub files on my computer to see what I have for reading, listening, studying. A lot, too many to list.
Finished the grammar of Hugo French in Three Months. Lots to work on, decided the best approach is to master the endings of verb conjugations of all tenses.
I made some charts and uploaded them to my phone for review.
Listened to the first audio tape (about 40 min) of 15 of Hector Malot’s Conscience.

Spanish
The vocabulary of La traición de Rita Hayworth on the Kindle forced me to do too many dictionary lookups. The novel is still in the public domain, so there are no free downloads of texts for uploading into LWT . I stopped reading with only 15% finished.
Assembled all the Spanish pdf, mp3, mp4, docx and epub files on my computer to see what I have for reading, listening, studying. As with French, there are a lot, too many to list.
Finished the grammar of Hugo Spanish in Three Months. Lots to work on, decided the best approach is to master the endings of verb conjugations of all tenses. There was no interference for me between French and Spanish paradigms. As with the French, I made some charts and uploaded them to my phone for review.
I read and listened to a couple of stories by Argentina’s Roberto Arlt:
“ Una tarde de domingo” and “El crimen casi perfecto.”
The latter read and heard on El Libro Total. See the post by AndyMeg El Libro Total

Ancient Greek
Edit one (1) time to show post about El Libro Total.
Reading a bit farther in the Melian Debate from Thucydides Book 5. Sometime in the last two weeks I listened to a reading of the debate from Librivox by a reader who calls himself Olorus (which was the name of Thycidides’s father).
An extensive review of the aorist, sorting out first from second and indicative from middle and throwing in the passive.

Edit one (1) time to show AndyMeg's post about El Libro Total.
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Many things which are false are transmitted from book to book, and gain credit in the world. -- attributed to Samuel Johnson

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Carmody
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Re: Mork the Fiddle's 2019 Log

Postby Carmody » Mon Nov 28, 2022 8:31 pm

My congratulations for all the excellent work that you are doing.

A question if I might re Hector Malot’s Conscience. I love Malot but am not able to find any discussion anywhere as to the plot of the book but just that it is free. (I like free). Can you tell me:

1-How did you come to know of this book and
2- What is the plot?

Congratulations again.
1 x


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