JLS log - Spanish, Greek, Hebrew, Latin, Chinese, Japanese

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JLS
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Languages: English (N), Spanish (conversational), Mandarin (beginner), Koine Greek (proficient reader), Biblical Hebrew (intermediate), Latin (past first year level)
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Re: JLS log - Spanish, Greek, Hebrew, Latin, Chinese, Japanese

Postby JLS » Tue Jun 04, 2024 6:11 pm

M23 wrote:
JLS wrote:Found this quote and video on another blog concerning language learning.

“Master your instrument, master the music, and then forget about all that (stuff) and just play.” - Charlie Parker, jazz musician



Good advice. If we imagine telling a story about what we ate for dinner last night we might learn verb in all sorts of different tenses and vocabulary that would have to do with dinner, but like Chis Potter said we would have to over learn something. So we might learn verbs and vocabulary about cooking food that might answer a question about prepping the food, we might learn verbs and vocabulary that would help us tell a story about travel to Italy and learning how to cook the dish, we might learn vocabulary that would help us tell a story about the one time we made the dish for our uncle, and so on. For the moment, however, we are just saying what we ate for dinner last night and we do not need to worry about the other stuff unless someone asks.


I've heard it said that you should practice beyond 100% so that when you perform, you will hit 100%.
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Read Greek New Testament: 61 / 260 - 61 / 260 chapters
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JLS
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Re: JLS log - Spanish, Greek, Hebrew, Latin, Chinese, Japanese

Postby JLS » Fri Jun 07, 2024 1:28 pm

I most enjoy taking a phrase in the target language and grammatically dissecting it. With Google Translate on my side I will take a Japanese sentence, change up the GT input, and take notes on how the output changes. Good things happen.

- The process itself forces me to think hard, and this concentrated engagement helps embed the language in my psyche
- It gets me to think about how Japanese really works
- I not only new words, but the sense of those words too
- It creates the beginning of a sight-reading psyche for the language

Think of it like taking apart and rebuilding a car engine. It takes a long time, and no thing you do in the process feels big in itself, but you learn about the car engine in a way you never have before. It creates a certain mastery of the car engine that would not be possible another way. Also, the process of discovery is fun.
6 x
Read Greek New Testament: 61 / 260 - 61 / 260 chapters
Read Hebrew Bible: 107 / 920 - 107 / 920 chapters
Read Vulgate: 87 / 1189 - 87 / 1189 - chapters
Learn Chinese Radicals: 20 / 214 - 20 / 214 radicals

JLS
Yellow Belt
Posts: 95
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2020 11:53 am
Languages: English (N), Spanish (conversational), Mandarin (beginner), Koine Greek (proficient reader), Biblical Hebrew (intermediate), Latin (past first year level)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=15664
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Re: JLS log - Spanish, Greek, Hebrew, Latin, Chinese, Japanese

Postby JLS » Mon Jun 10, 2024 6:38 pm

A sample from my notes on the detailed grammatical / lexical study I like to do. This is the first line of 主祷文, which some know as the Lord's Prayer.

The first line is concerning the one addressed, and the line that I chose to analyze. My conclusions may or may not be right. This is the exercise I go through. In the end, I understand grammar and meaning a little better, while also deeply internalizing the words that I am thinking about.

我们在天上的父 - Our Father who is in heaven

- This concerns the one being addressed - 父 (Father)
- Does 的 (which often indicates a descriptive relationship) pertain to everything before it, or only to 在天上 (who is in heaven). I think the latter. In other contexts, Chinese does not use 的 to connect pronouns to nouns to indicate family relations. The relational connection between 我们 (we) and 父 (father) would already be understood.
- Does 在 (being) pertain to 我们 or 天上 ("we" or "in heaven")? Only latter. Chinese does not use verbs like 在 (being) or 是 (is) to indicate a personal relationship. Not that I've seen. Therefore it pertains to 天上.
- What is the sense of 上? Either "in" or "on." Sometimes it seems to indicate something upon something else; but it's silly to say that 父 is "upon" 天, or even "on." He is "in" 天。Other confirmatory uses:
- From the song 虫儿飞: "天上的星星." "The stars in the sky." The stars are not "upon the sky;" maybe "on the sky" depending how you think about it. Best word in English for 上 is "in."
- 上海 - Shanghai - "In the Sea" - Possibly named because the original town was on land that was below sea level. It may be "on the sea" in some fashion, or "in the sea."
- I have used 天 in two different contexts, with possibly two different senses. In 主祷文 it means "heaven." In 虫儿飞 it means "sky." However, 虫儿飞 also uses 天空 for sky in its first line (黑黑的天空低垂). I wonder what is the difference?

My literal translation:

Our in-heaven Father
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Read Greek New Testament: 61 / 260 - 61 / 260 chapters
Read Hebrew Bible: 107 / 920 - 107 / 920 chapters
Read Vulgate: 87 / 1189 - 87 / 1189 - chapters
Learn Chinese Radicals: 20 / 214 - 20 / 214 radicals

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jeff_lindqvist
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Re: JLS log - Spanish, Greek, Hebrew, Latin, Chinese, Japanese

Postby jeff_lindqvist » Mon Jun 10, 2024 9:00 pm

JLS wrote:A sample from my notes on the detailed grammatical / lexical study I like to do. This is the first line of 主祷文, which some know as the Lord's Prayer.

The first line is concerning the one addressed, and the line that I chose to analyze. My conclusions may or may not be right. This is the exercise I go through. In the end, I understand grammar and meaning a little better, while also deeply internalizing the words that I am thinking about.

我们在天上的父 - Our Father who is in heaven


It's been a while since I spent any decent amount of time on Chinese, but I remember that there are expressions that use both preposition (e.g. 在) and postposition (e.g. 上, 下). Example: ...在桌子上... (”at”-table-on).

在 is (among other things) a marker of some physical (or temporal) location. E.g. ”to be doing something”. (A bit like ”ag” in Irish: Tá mé ag léamh - I'm ”at” reading.

Regarding 的, it can indeed connect an entire block of information with the word after.
Examples:
他最喜欢的作者 his ”most-like” (=favourite) 的 author

Members with a lot stronger sense of Chinese grammar will hopefully chime in.
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JLS
Yellow Belt
Posts: 95
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2020 11:53 am
Languages: English (N), Spanish (conversational), Mandarin (beginner), Koine Greek (proficient reader), Biblical Hebrew (intermediate), Latin (past first year level)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=15664
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Re: JLS log - Spanish, Greek, Hebrew, Latin, Chinese, Japanese

Postby JLS » Tue Jun 11, 2024 10:45 am

jeff_lindqvist wrote:
JLS wrote:A sample from my notes on the detailed grammatical / lexical study I like to do. This is the first line of 主祷文, which some know as the Lord's Prayer.

The first line is concerning the one addressed, and the line that I chose to analyze. My conclusions may or may not be right. This is the exercise I go through. In the end, I understand grammar and meaning a little better, while also deeply internalizing the words that I am thinking about.

我们在天上的父 - Our Father who is in heaven


It's been a while since I spent any decent amount of time on Chinese, but I remember that there are expressions that use both preposition (e.g. 在) and postposition (e.g. 上, 下). Example: ...在桌子上... (”at”-table-on).

在 is (among other things) a marker of some physical (or temporal) location. E.g. ”to be doing something”. (A bit like ”ag” in Irish: Tá mé ag léamh - I'm ”at” reading.

Regarding 的, it can indeed connect an entire block of information with the word after.
Examples:
他最喜欢的作者 his ”most-like” (=favourite) 的 author

Members with a lot stronger sense of Chinese grammar will hopefully chime in.


Thanks for the info on 在! When I've read it, it seemed equivalent to saying "being" in the present progressive sense. But makes me realize some sentences make better sense with a locative sense. 彼得在家吗? (Is Peter home?) 他们住在一个树洞里 (they lived in a hole in the tree). 在天上 still makes sense with a locative aspect. But I'm wondering where I thought maybe 在 was a present progressive alternative to 是. Maybe the way it is used in sentences like 我在写 (I am writing) or 他们在跑 (they are running).

Just shows what we have to do to really get the idea of another language.
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Read Greek New Testament: 61 / 260 - 61 / 260 chapters
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jeff_lindqvist
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Re: JLS log - Spanish, Greek, Hebrew, Latin, Chinese, Japanese

Postby jeff_lindqvist » Tue Jun 11, 2024 5:16 pm

JLS wrote:Thanks for the info on 在! When I've read it, it seemed equivalent to saying "being" in the present progressive sense. But makes me realize some sentences make better sense with a locative sense. 彼得在家吗? (Is Peter home?) 他们住在一个树洞里 (they lived in a hole in the tree). 在天上 still makes sense with a locative aspect. But I'm wondering where I thought maybe 在 was a present progressive alternative to 是. Maybe the way it is used in sentences like 我在写 (I am writing) or 他们在跑 (they are running).

Just shows what we have to do to really get the idea of another language.


Yeah, the use here is physical location, not temporal. Wow, I just found this resource:
HOW TO USE 在?

Fascinating language.
0 x
Leabhair/Greannáin léite as Gaeilge: 9 / 18
Ar an seastán oíche: Oileán an Órchiste
Duolingo - finished trees: sp/ga/de/fr/pt/it
Finnish with extra pain : 100 / 100

Llorg Blog - Wiki - Discord

bolaobo
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Re: JLS log - Spanish, Greek, Hebrew, Latin, Chinese, Japanese

Postby bolaobo » Wed Jun 12, 2024 5:41 pm

jeff_lindqvist wrote:
JLS wrote:Thanks for the info on 在! When I've read it, it seemed equivalent to saying "being" in the present progressive sense. But makes me realize some sentences make better sense with a locative sense. 彼得在家吗? (Is Peter home?) 他们住在一个树洞里 (they lived in a hole in the tree). 在天上 still makes sense with a locative aspect. But I'm wondering where I thought maybe 在 was a present progressive alternative to 是. Maybe the way it is used in sentences like 我在写 (I am writing) or 他们在跑 (they are running).

Just shows what we have to do to really get the idea of another language.


Yeah, the use here is physical location, not temporal. Wow, I just found this resource:
HOW TO USE 在?

Fascinating language.


The "present continuous" usage of 在 is also described here.

https://resources.allsetlearning.com/chinese/grammar/Expressing_actions_in_progress_(full_form)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_grammar#Aspects

It indicates that the action is in progress but not necessarily occurring in the past.

But my "gut" tells me that his usage is more common in informal registers and I would have been a little surprised to see it in a solemn translation of the Lord's Prayer. In literary Chinese (and classical) aspect was traditionally inferred based on context.
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