JLS log - Spanish, Greek, Hebrew, Latin, Chinese

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JLS
Yellow Belt
Posts: 73
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2020 11:53 am
Languages: English (N), Spanish (conversational), Mandarin (beginner), Koine Greek (proficient reader), Biblical Hebrew (intermediate), Latin (past first year level)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=15664
x 136

Re: JLS log - Spanish, Greek, Hebrew, Latin, Chinese

Postby JLS » Mon May 13, 2024 11:35 am

MorkTheFiddle wrote:
JLS wrote:I've worked on intentionally fostering a living connection with the words I learn. I've mainly practiced with Chinese and Spanish; but when I went back to Hebrew, the bent was there to make Hebrew words living to me.

It confirms two ideas I've had: 1) you must intentionally foster living connections in your target languages, and 2) skills applied to one language will cross into another.

How can you do this? Three possibilities:

1) If you have the same sentence in two languages--your native and your target--think of what all the sentence means to you in your native language; and then intentionally import the sense and feeling into the sentence in the target language, with adjustment for linguistic nuance that may be in the target language.

2) Take a selection from the target language to read out loud; first think of how you should be feeling and reasoning when reading it out loud, and then repeat it several times over with those sentiments in mind.

One of the most original pieces of advice that I have read on this forum.
I am trying to make it work with ancient Greek. When I read a passage from Herodotus or Thucydides, who wrote about cataclysmic events, how would a native of the time responded to it intellectually and emotionally? The events of their histories certainly can resonate in our times.


Great theme to apply this to. Would Greeks really have responded to disasters and large-scale shakeups differently than men and women today?

It may depend on who is writing, and for what purpose too. If Thucydides are Herodotus were writing in order to move people in a certain way, then it's reasonable to find out the emotional element that they intended to produce, and then create association between that and the words and phrases they used. However, if these guys are more "textbook fashion" (which I doubt), there may not be much emotional element at all. It will depend on the genre.

I did experience something yesterday of what I was talking about. As I was working through something in my mind, a psalm came to my mind in its original language, and I get benefit from the psalm in its original Hebrew, and not from the Hebrew translated. I didn't even need to translate it. The living and emotional element of the original Hebrew as Hebrew came to me.
4 x
Read Greek New Testament: 61 / 260 - 61 / 260 chapters
Read Hebrew Bible: 107 / 920 - 107 / 920 chapters
Read Vulgate: 87 / 1189 - 87 / 1189 - chapters
Learn Chinese Radicals: 20 / 214 - 20 / 214 radicals

JLS
Yellow Belt
Posts: 73
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2020 11:53 am
Languages: English (N), Spanish (conversational), Mandarin (beginner), Koine Greek (proficient reader), Biblical Hebrew (intermediate), Latin (past first year level)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=15664
x 136

Re: JLS log - Spanish, Greek, Hebrew, Latin, Chinese

Postby JLS » Wed May 15, 2024 12:35 pm

Did some sight-reading on Wikipedia. I comprehend nothing, but some of the hiragana are immediately striking my mind with their associated sounds. Small step forward.
1 x
Read Greek New Testament: 61 / 260 - 61 / 260 chapters
Read Hebrew Bible: 107 / 920 - 107 / 920 chapters
Read Vulgate: 87 / 1189 - 87 / 1189 - chapters
Learn Chinese Radicals: 20 / 214 - 20 / 214 radicals

golyplot
Black Belt - 1st Dan
Posts: 1769
Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2017 9:41 pm
Languages: Am. English (N), German, French, ASL (abandoned), Spanish, Dutch, Italian, Japanese (N2)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=12230
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Re: JLS log - Spanish, Greek, Hebrew, Latin, Chinese

Postby golyplot » Wed May 15, 2024 2:08 pm

JLS wrote:Did some sight-reading on Wikipedia. I comprehend nothing, but some of the hiragana are immediately striking my mind with their associated sounds. Small step forward.


FYI, Japanese Wikipedia tends to be especially difficult to read due to heavy use of kanji. For a beginner, it's like a giant wall of interchangeable rectangle blobs.
2 x

JLS
Yellow Belt
Posts: 73
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2020 11:53 am
Languages: English (N), Spanish (conversational), Mandarin (beginner), Koine Greek (proficient reader), Biblical Hebrew (intermediate), Latin (past first year level)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=15664
x 136

Re: JLS log - Spanish, Greek, Hebrew, Latin, Chinese

Postby JLS » Wed May 15, 2024 3:12 pm

golyplot wrote:
JLS wrote:Did some sight-reading on Wikipedia. I comprehend nothing, but some of the hiragana are immediately striking my mind with their associated sounds. Small step forward.


FYI, Japanese Wikipedia tends to be especially difficult to read due to heavy use of kanji. For a beginner, it's like a giant wall of interchangeable rectangle blobs.


Yes, and the experience does force me to keep it real.

I did notice that some pages will have little katakana, but others will be profuse with it. Perhaps it depends on the subject.
1 x
Read Greek New Testament: 61 / 260 - 61 / 260 chapters
Read Hebrew Bible: 107 / 920 - 107 / 920 chapters
Read Vulgate: 87 / 1189 - 87 / 1189 - chapters
Learn Chinese Radicals: 20 / 214 - 20 / 214 radicals

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MorkTheFiddle
Black Belt - 2nd Dan
Posts: 2171
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2015 8:59 pm
Location: North Texas USA
Languages: English (N). Read (only) French and Spanish. Studying Ancient Greek. Studying a bit of Latin. Once studied Old Norse. Dabbled in Catalan, Provençal and Italian.
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 11#p133911
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Re: JLS log - Spanish, Greek, Hebrew, Latin, Chinese

Postby MorkTheFiddle » Wed May 15, 2024 6:25 pm

JLS wrote:
Great theme to apply this to. Would Greeks really have responded to disasters and large-scale shakeups differently than men and women today?

It may depend on who is writing, and for what purpose too. If Thucydides are Herodotus were writing in order to move people in a certain way, then it's reasonable to find out the emotional element that they intended to produce, and then create association between that and the words and phrases they used. However, if these guys are more "textbook fashion" (which I doubt), there may not be much emotional element at all. It will depend on the genre.

I did experience something yesterday of what I was talking about. As I was working through something in my mind, a psalm came to my mind in its original language, and I get benefit from the psalm in its original Hebrew, and not from the Hebrew translated. I didn't even need to translate it. The living and emotional element of the original Hebrew as Hebrew came to me.

Still pondering this. Thucydides and Herodotus definitely were not ´textbook' writers. Broadly speaking, they engaged in 'telling what happened,' but the events they described were so fundamental to the Greek experience and to the existence of Greek ways of life that they touched deeply on the minds of their readers. However, few reactions to the work of Thucydides exist until Dionysius of Halicarnassus, a literary critic and historian himself, but not writing until the 1st century BC, 2 or 3 centuries after Thucydides wrote. Herododotus, on the other hand, according to some of the scholars who study his work, gave public readings of at least some of his writing. Did the sweep of his narrative stir his listeners? Hard to say, but likely. Does it stir me? Yes, at least to the extent that he is a great writer, and great writing stirs me. "Tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow creeps this petty pace from day to day." That sort of moving phrase. Just yesterday, one of our members described the short story Alfonse Daudet wrote about the last day Prussian conquerors allow French to be taught in a newly recaptured Alsacian school. Easy enough for me to sympathize with and be moved by, even as if I were myself a French-speaking citizen of the times.
So, yes. I believe you propose a useful model for the reading of the Ancient Greeks, or at least certainly of their two most prominent historians.
2 x
Many things which are false are transmitted from book to book, and gain credit in the world. -- attributed to Samuel Johnson

JLS
Yellow Belt
Posts: 73
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2020 11:53 am
Languages: English (N), Spanish (conversational), Mandarin (beginner), Koine Greek (proficient reader), Biblical Hebrew (intermediate), Latin (past first year level)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=15664
x 136

Re: JLS log - Spanish, Greek, Hebrew, Latin, Chinese

Postby JLS » Wed May 15, 2024 8:00 pm

MorkTheFiddle wrote:
JLS wrote:
Great theme to apply this to. Would Greeks really have responded to disasters and large-scale shakeups differently than men and women today?

It may depend on who is writing, and for what purpose too. If Thucydides are Herodotus were writing in order to move people in a certain way, then it's reasonable to find out the emotional element that they intended to produce, and then create association between that and the words and phrases they used. However, if these guys are more "textbook fashion" (which I doubt), there may not be much emotional element at all. It will depend on the genre.

I did experience something yesterday of what I was talking about. As I was working through something in my mind, a psalm came to my mind in its original language, and I get benefit from the psalm in its original Hebrew, and not from the Hebrew translated. I didn't even need to translate it. The living and emotional element of the original Hebrew as Hebrew came to me.

Still pondering this. Thucydides and Herodotus definitely were not ´textbook' writers. Broadly speaking, they engaged in 'telling what happened,' but the events they described were so fundamental to the Greek experience and to the existence of Greek ways of life that they touched deeply on the minds of their readers. However, few reactions to the work of Thucydides exist until Dionysius of Halicarnassus, a literary critic and historian himself, but not writing until the 1st century BC, 2 or 3 centuries after Thucydides wrote. Herododotus, on the other hand, according to some of the scholars who study his work, gave public readings of at least some of his writing. Did the sweep of his narrative stir his listeners? Hard to say, but likely. Does it stir me? Yes, at least to the extent that he is a great writer, and great writing stirs me. "Tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow creeps this petty pace from day to day." That sort of moving phrase. Just yesterday, one of our members described the short story Alfonse Daudet wrote about the last day Prussian conquerors allow French to be taught in a newly recaptured Alsacian school. Easy enough for me to sympathize with and be moved by, even as if I were myself a French-speaking citizen of the times.
So, yes. I believe you propose a useful model for the reading of the Ancient Greeks, or at least certainly of their two most prominent historians.


Thanks. Thought of this too, that oratory was important to Greeks and Romans, of which no small part was persuasion. That includes emotional. Is there perhaps some of this in the writings? The orators understood that you can't move the head without moving the emotions.
0 x
Read Greek New Testament: 61 / 260 - 61 / 260 chapters
Read Hebrew Bible: 107 / 920 - 107 / 920 chapters
Read Vulgate: 87 / 1189 - 87 / 1189 - chapters
Learn Chinese Radicals: 20 / 214 - 20 / 214 radicals

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MorkTheFiddle
Black Belt - 2nd Dan
Posts: 2171
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2015 8:59 pm
Location: North Texas USA
Languages: English (N). Read (only) French and Spanish. Studying Ancient Greek. Studying a bit of Latin. Once studied Old Norse. Dabbled in Catalan, Provençal and Italian.
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 11#p133911
x 4957

Re: JLS log - Spanish, Greek, Hebrew, Latin, Chinese

Postby MorkTheFiddle » Thu May 16, 2024 5:11 pm

Yes. Knowledge and use of oratory appears often in Herodotus, and Thucydides devises many whole speeches that he attributes, correctly or not, to many historical figures in his histories.
1 x
Many things which are false are transmitted from book to book, and gain credit in the world. -- attributed to Samuel Johnson

JLS
Yellow Belt
Posts: 73
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2020 11:53 am
Languages: English (N), Spanish (conversational), Mandarin (beginner), Koine Greek (proficient reader), Biblical Hebrew (intermediate), Latin (past first year level)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=15664
x 136

Re: JLS log - Spanish, Greek, Hebrew, Latin, Chinese

Postby JLS » Fri May 17, 2024 6:23 pm

I'm pleasantly surprised how relatively easy sight-reading the hiragana is coming. I'm familiar with at least 30 characters now, and when I pull up Wikipedia JP I see the hiragana and near-instantly know how the character sounds. I certainly was not at this level this early with Hebrew when I started it years ago.

I comprehend nothing, granted, but if the sight-reading comes easy it should help in attaining speedier fluency.
0 x
Read Greek New Testament: 61 / 260 - 61 / 260 chapters
Read Hebrew Bible: 107 / 920 - 107 / 920 chapters
Read Vulgate: 87 / 1189 - 87 / 1189 - chapters
Learn Chinese Radicals: 20 / 214 - 20 / 214 radicals


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