Smelling the coffee in 2023

Continue or start your personal language log here, including logs for challenge participants
DaveAgain
Black Belt - 1st Dan
Posts: 1946
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2018 11:26 am
Languages: English (native), French & German (learning).
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... &start=200
x 3990

Re: Smelling the coffee in 2023

Postby DaveAgain » Mon Dec 04, 2023 10:00 am

Cavesa wrote:(The TCF books are unfortunately missing the speaking and writing part usually)
The Institut Francais in London presents speaking and writing as optional, if that's common then that might explain the text books lacking them.
Fees
TCF Tout public – Skills tested
Compulsory (listening + reading) £139
Speaking £79
Writing £79

https://www.institut-francais.org.uk/ce ... ral-tcf/#/
2 x

MaggieMae
Orange Belt
Posts: 115
Joined: Thu May 12, 2022 11:13 am
Location: Switzerland
Languages: English (N), German (C2), Swiss German (depends on the day), Swedish (A1), Mandarin (Beginner)
Language Log: viewtopic.php?t=18071
x 586

Re: Smelling the coffee in 2023

Postby MaggieMae » Mon Dec 04, 2023 2:44 pm

I've been gone for so long, I'm sorry!

What a whirlwind! I'm so glad job stuff is starting to look up for you, but I'm so sorry to hear that you're still having problems with the scam school and German learning in general. I hope you get your results soon, and that it's not as bad as you fear. Ich drücke dir die Daumen!

The C1 exam definitely has a need for extra telepathy, and I hate it. C2 was better, if only because you could take each section separately.

I'm not surprised you couldn't understand anything in Zürich. Swiss German is a BEAST.

As for Swiss TV Shows, Der Bestatter (Aargauerdütsch), which was already recommended, is fantastic, as is Die Beschatter (Baseldütsch). My husband and I also watch Game of Switzerland every time it comes on (1-2x per year). If you want a challenge, Tschugger is Walliserdütsch, I just didn't like that one as much as my husband did. All should have subtitles in High German, and I found it fun to compare the two simultaneously. Play Suisse and SRF are the good free streaming services to use. SRF also has the news in Swiss German (Aktuell) as well as High German (Tageschau), and a radio app, where pretty much everything is in Swiss German.

I haven't had too much trouble here in Switzerland in general, outside the always feeling inadequate bit, but I felt like that in the US, too. I don't know if it's because I'm in Ostschweiz or if I'm better tolerated because I married in, but I do recognize that it does make a difference. The bigger the city, the better the things like racism and exclusivity get, too. Winterthur is really great, many people in Zürich speak more English than German, and Schaffhausen is quickly becoming an immigrant city (which also has its disadvantages, since the natives don't like the fact that there's a diminishing percentage of Swiss children in the schools). I can safely say that nearly all of my good friends here are immigrants, though. It takes years to build up Swiss friendships. Joining a Verein or a book club helps a lot, but that requires the time to invest. Once you get your foot in the door in a group like that, though, it's nearly instant acceptance (in my experience).

Ich hoffe, dass alles bei dir gut geht. Halt durch! Du schaffst das, sicher!
8 x
Languages: English (N), German (C2), Swiss German (depends on the day), Swedish (A1), Mandarin (beginner)
: 22 / 100 SC Books 22.3/100
: 31 / 100 SC Films 30.7/100

User avatar
Klara
Yellow Belt
Posts: 68
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2018 10:28 am
Languages: German (N), English (C1),
B-ish: French, Spanish, Danish, Dutch, Italian
A-ish: Russian, Swedish, Latin, Polish, Portuguese
x 294

Re: Smelling the coffee in 2023

Postby Klara » Tue Dec 05, 2023 7:24 pm

The TCF books are unfortunately missing the speaking and writing part usually.

There is a quite comprehensive (around 680 pages) preparation book for the TCF - including speaking and writing. Just google "fle ellipses" and you will find it. The publisher provides the content and examples online.

TCF.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
1 x

Cavesa
Black Belt - 4th Dan
Posts: 4947
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2015 9:46 am
Languages: Czech (N), French (C2) English (C1), Italian (C1), Spanish, German (C1)
x 17447

Re: Smelling the coffee in 2023

Postby Cavesa » Sat Dec 09, 2023 8:01 pm

Not much language learning happening, I am quite an exhausted person, so I mostly sleep, play computer games and need to do christmas stuff real soon. But I've started again reading the Hungergames in German, finished chapter 1, there are 27 in the first book.

Some German practice actually happens. Last week, one of our weekly classes was in German! It was on lung cancer and I understood without any problem! It was a non native but very good speaker with standard German, and it was very cool. I also really liked the content of this lecture and retained some information, which just shows that my German really has been improving.

But then back to the Earth: the real life Swiss German. Damn. A patient and his wife speaking their dialect, and my superior speaking with them in the same dialect but much more clearly. I understood her like 50-60% and could more or less guess like 20% more. To those old people? At best 30% :-( And when I need to switch to German like this, I speak horribly, I underperform, because not only I am switching from French thinking, but hearing the Swiss German also doesn't really trigger the "hey, this is German and I know this" mechanism in my brain. It's perhaps as distant from the standard like Czech and Slovak or even more.

Still waiting for my exam result. The website says they only deliver certificates by post, cannot confirm pass/fail by phone, etc. But if I failed, then how do I get to know? No clue. I need to go to the post office (hard to do, as their opening hours are shorter than my work hours), there is something for me against signature. Either it's the results, or it is just another bill for something forgotten.

Klara wrote:
The TCF books are unfortunately missing the speaking and writing part usually.

There is a quite comprehensive (around 680 pages) preparation book for the TCF - including speaking and writing. Just google "fle ellipses" and you will find it. The publisher provides the content and examples online.

Thank you! We'll probably buy this. On one hand, I don't want to flood my husband with too many resources, it could be paralyzing. But this could be a very good one.

DaveAgain wrote:
Cavesa wrote:(The TCF books are unfortunately missing the speaking and writing part usually)
The Institut Francais in London presents speaking and writing as optional, if that's common then that might explain the text books lacking them.

They all present them as optional, because they are optional. You get a certificate without them. The problem is, that you never know, whether an employer or an institution think about them as optional too! Logically, they might require the most these active skills. And often, when asked this question, they treat me like a morron. When I asked the ministry clerk in the Switzerland, whether all skills tested are necessary, she kept repeating "it needs to be B2", like a parrot, as she didn't even understand my question due to lack of knowledge about the things she requires from people.

So, my husband will probably need all the skills, but we agreed it might be awesome not to do all at once, even if the sum of two prices is a bit higher than doing all at once.

MaggieMae wrote:The C1 exam definitely has a need for extra telepathy, and I hate it. C2 was better, if only because you could take each section separately


So happy to hear from you again!

Do you think this might be another instance, like what I found with DALF C2 being in some ways in form easier than C1? :-D Who knows, perhaps I'll end up taking C2 one day. Or the new version of C1, which is said to be easier, and which also will allow taking each part separately.

I'm not surprised you couldn't understand anything in Zürich. Swiss German is a BEAST.

It is not one beast, it's a whole ZOO!!! All of those dialects are super hard for me, and I am starting to hear that there are some differences! Cannot describe them to you, but I hear them and I find this discouraging.

My sister and I have a theory. All these different dialects are just a few dozens of desperate attampts to make German less hard and ugly. All of them failed. :-D (this is not disrespectful, it is an expression of our despair)

As for Swiss TV Shows, Der Bestatter (Aargauerdütsch), which was already recommended, is fantastic, as is Die Beschatter (Baseldütsch). My husband and I also watch Game of Switzerland every time it comes on (1-2x per year). If you want a challenge, Tschugger is Walliserdütsch, I just didn't like that one as much as my husband did. All should have subtitles in High German, and I found it fun to compare the two simultaneously. Play Suisse and SRF are the good free streaming services to use. SRF also has the news in Swiss German (Aktuell) as well as High German (Tageschau), and a radio app, where pretty much everything is in Swiss German.

Thanks, one of my plans is to get the Play Suisse service. I expect the Swiss production will be a bit like the Czech one, another small country. So, hopefully some ok crimis, perhaps some tolerable romance (if I open a beer), not sure what else. News are nice, but stressful, I'd love some fiction. I have no clue what to expect from Swiss comedies though. Your recommendations are on top of the list!

The bigger the city, the better the things like racism and exclusivity get, too. Winterthur is really great, many people in Zürich speak more English than German, and Schaffhausen is quickly becoming an immigrant city (which also has its disadvantages, since the natives don't like the fact that there's a diminishing percentage of Swiss children in the schools).

Yeah, cities are overall better place for life, as far as the human side goes imho. More liberal, more free, less judgmental. But there are simply few in the Switzerland, and they are rather small. And Zürich has recently been judged the most expensive city to live in in Europe or perhaps the world! :-D

Yes, there are advantages and disadvantages to high % of immigrants. People too much against immigration face a simple answer "yeah, you don't want immigrants, so you are surely ready to close half your hospitals :-D". But on the other hand, it is necessary to push the immigrants to integrate (even if it is sometimes more assimilation). I've seen it very clearly in Belgium, how horrible can creation of a parallel society be. So, while I am sure the Swiss will simply have to accept that immigration is necessary and I definitely hope they will make their laws more just (it is not ok to have over 30% permanent residents without citizenship and therefore political representation), I also hope they will keep pushing even harder their language requirements, and that they will strive for bi or trilingualism in their languages. In any case, I'd bet they'll be in the EU in 20 years from now, so a lot will change and they have a great opportunity to figure stuff out before that.

I can safely say that nearly all of my good friends here are immigrants, though. It takes years to build up Swiss friendships. Joining a Verein or a book club helps a lot, but that requires the time to invest. Once you get your foot in the door in a group like that, though, it's nearly instant acceptance (in my experience).

Yeah, I know. I will have to recontact my only purely swiss acquitances not from hospital. It is hard to build relationships in years, when my career requires yearly relocation. I have a slightly easier time with the work relationships with friendship potential. Not only does work in healthcare put us all under a bit of social stress (lack of contact, lack of time, lack of comprehension from normal people that work much less than us), but we share some values, and also the young doctors can still keep a bit of the "studentish" attitude.

I would love to join a Verein or a book club, but I have yet to find any fitting my schedule. For some weird reason, normal people do not have bookclubs at midnight :-D

Ich hoffe, dass alles bei dir gut geht. Halt durch! Du schaffst das, sicher!

Danke schön! Ich hoffe das auch, aber ich bin nie sicher. Wir sehen was passiert mit meine verrückte Träume :-D
10 x

User avatar
rdearman
Site Admin
Posts: 7186
Joined: Thu May 14, 2015 4:18 pm
Location: United Kingdom
Languages: English (N)
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=1836
x 22929
Contact:

Re: Smelling the coffee in 2023

Postby rdearman » Sun Dec 10, 2023 12:36 am

Cavesa wrote:In any case, I'd bet they'll be in the EU in 20 years from now, so a lot will change and they have a great opportunity to figure stuff out before that.

I would take that bet, what odds are you giving?
6 x
: 0 / 150 Read 150 books in 2024

My YouTube Channel
The Autodidactic Podcast
My Author's Newsletter

I post on this forum with mobile devices, so excuse short msgs and typos.

Cavesa
Black Belt - 4th Dan
Posts: 4947
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2015 9:46 am
Languages: Czech (N), French (C2) English (C1), Italian (C1), Spanish, German (C1)
x 17447

Re: Smelling the coffee in 2023

Postby Cavesa » Mon Dec 11, 2023 6:01 pm

rdearman wrote:
Cavesa wrote:In any case, I'd bet they'll be in the EU in 20 years from now, so a lot will change and they have a great opportunity to figure stuff out before that.

I would take that bet, what odds are you giving?


Now I'm out of my depth, giving odds. I'd say there is at least 85% probability, that they'll be in the EU in 2043.
So, what will our bet be? The loser buys champagne for a LLorg meeting in 2043?

.............

Aaaaaand I left work one hour earlier today, to go to the post office. It wasn't another bill! It was my certificate!

I passed my GZ C1!!!
:-D :-D :-D :-D :-D Pretty unexpected!

And the individual scores are unexpected too. So, the overal grade is Befriegend (satisfactory), for my sum of 76/100

I had expected my scores to go from worst to best like: writing-speaking-listening-reading. Nope. I was wrong.

Lesen 18/25 Not bad, definitely ok given the open questions and the "telepathy component".
Hören 19,5/25 Wow, surprising to have better hören than lesen, given my exam impressions, but much less given my main activity in German in the last month being TV shows.
Schreiben 16,5/25 Great, just above the line! Of course I'll need to work on my writing for work reasons and everything, but I can already put this to my CV and keep working as time allows.
Sprechen 22/25 WOW!!! Totally unexpected. I think my speaking partner drew the best out of me in the end, and the speed wasn't that much of an issue. Or perhaps her awesome speaking skills were too much for one learner, so they spread to me. :-D And yeah, a proof that you can have a high speaking score even if you do not perfectly memorise the two dumb minutes on your monologue structure :-D

Now I have only the pleasant obligations: update my profile on the forum and on reddit, update my CV (and no more excuses for another round of CV sending and job hunting), make a plan on a tolerable way to improve my skills continuously, and so on.

Also, we could say I've got the whole Swiss collection (ok, except for Romansh, but you know.).
And my employability in this country and on this continent has just pretty much doubled.
I've also got to keep my headstart compared to my siblings. Who would have thought that our family would become a family of German learners. Our ancestors would be proud.
Which leads me to the next collection: "heritage languages". Languages that my ancestors (as far as I know) were native or very competent in. French, German, Polish :-D Or perhaps properly complete FIGS :-D

OR! I could return back to Earth and not take any language exams for a while (for example at least until the huge internal medicine exam next year). The goal for 2024 will be pleasure in my languages.

This is as well a clear proof, that you don't need to love (or even like) a language in order to learn it. People assuming otherwise are really speaking out of privilege usually. Even if you don't love a language, you can love your success (small or big), you can love the advantages you get as your reward, and you can also love your victory over an enemy. And this is such a victory, in spite of all the things I still need to improve. Who knows, perhaps I could develop a relationship with German similar to English (neutral feelings, profiting from the knowledge). After all, I don't totally hate it anymore and this took only 20 years or so :-D
30 x

User avatar
tiia
Blue Belt
Posts: 718
Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2016 11:52 pm
Location: Finland
Languages: German (N), English (?), Finnish (C1), Spanish (B2??), Swedish (B2)
Language Log: viewtopic.php?t=2374
x 1916

Re: Smelling the coffee in 2023

Postby tiia » Mon Dec 11, 2023 7:39 pm

Herzlichen Glückwunsch zu dem Ergebnis! 8-)
4 x
Corrections for entries written in Finnish, Spanish or Swedish are welcome.
Project 30+X: 25 / 30

User avatar
rdearman
Site Admin
Posts: 7186
Joined: Thu May 14, 2015 4:18 pm
Location: United Kingdom
Languages: English (N)
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=1836
x 22929
Contact:

Re: Smelling the coffee in 2023

Postby rdearman » Tue Dec 12, 2023 12:45 am

Cavesa wrote:Now I'm out of my depth, giving odds. I'd say there is at least 85% probability, that they'll be in the EU in 2043.
So, what will our bet be? The loser buys champagne for a LLorg meeting in 2043?


85 Percent Probability or 85 Percent Chance, you could say 17 to 3 Odds. 17 to 3 odds payout
If you bet 1 on a game with 17 to 3 odds and you win, your total payout will be 6.67 which is your bet plus 5.67 profit. So I will take your bet, but if you lose you buy me 6 bottles. If I lose I buy one. :lol:
5 x
: 0 / 150 Read 150 books in 2024

My YouTube Channel
The Autodidactic Podcast
My Author's Newsletter

I post on this forum with mobile devices, so excuse short msgs and typos.

lingohot
Orange Belt
Posts: 155
Joined: Sat Aug 07, 2021 8:17 pm
Languages: German (N), English (certified C1), French (certified C1), Spanish (reading intermediate, speaking/writing/listening beginner)
x 310

Re: Smelling the coffee in 2023

Postby lingohot » Wed Dec 13, 2023 7:07 am

Cong-rats! :mrgreen: Wow, that's actually really impressing. So many languages at a really high level. Motivating.
1 x
Lingohot™ – the hots for languages ;) :o

User avatar
Xenops
Brown Belt
Posts: 1444
Joined: Mon Nov 30, 2015 10:33 pm
Location: Boston
Languages: English (N), Danish (A2), Japanese (rusty), Nansha (constructing)
On break: Japanese (approx. N4), Norwegian (A2)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=16797
x 3558
Contact:

Re: Smelling the coffee in 2023

Postby Xenops » Wed Dec 13, 2023 10:50 am

Congrats! I’m very happy for you! :D Thank you for sharing your struggles and successes—it helps me know what to expect when I finally become an expat.
0 x
Check out my comic at: https://atannan.com/


Return to “Language logs”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 3 guests