Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

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Iversen
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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby Iversen » Tue May 24, 2022 7:28 pm

Radio Havana is actually one of stations that is mentioned in the article (as Radio Havana Cubo). The others are Pola Retradio and radio Muzaiko.
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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby IronMike » Wed May 25, 2022 12:57 am

Pola-retradio is awesome.
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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby Le Baron » Wed May 25, 2022 3:15 pm

On this point, how do you fellows find it when the Germans, Polish, French use an uvular fricative 'r' rather than the Spanish-type rolled 'r' for speaking Esperanto? I don't really like it; especially from Germans, it makes Esperanto sound uglier. It's also not what was set out in the original pronunciation guide by Zamenhof. This is only my opinion of course.
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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby jeff_lindqvist » Wed May 25, 2022 3:41 pm

Is that a common feature of Polish Esperanto?

@Wikipedia: Polish_phonology#allophones:
/r/ is apical alveolar. It has been traditionally classified as a trill [r̺], with a tap [ɾ̺] supposedly only occurring as an allophone or in fast speech.


If speakers of German and French use uvular fricative /r/ in their Esperanto, I can live with that (even if it doesn't match my idea of how Esperanto should sound). Think about how native speakers of other L1s mangle their L2s. Speaking English with a thick Chinese accent is no worse than speaking Chinese with a thick American accent. Though we may not like it, it's not the end of the world.

Still, "it doesn't sound like X if it doesn't sound like X". :?
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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby luke » Wed May 25, 2022 3:46 pm

Le Baron wrote:This is only my opinion of course.

I don't want to hijack Mr. Iversen's log, but I'm fond of the Russian Л for Esperanto 'L'.

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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby Le Baron » Wed May 25, 2022 3:51 pm

jeff_lindqvist wrote:If speakers of German and French use uvular fricative /r/ in their Esperanto, I can live with that (even if it doesn't match my idea of how Esperanto should sound). Think about how native speakers of other L1s mangle their L2s. Speaking English with a thick Chinese accent is no worse than speaking Chinese with a thick American accent. Though we may not like it, it's not the end of the world.

Still, "it doesn't sound like X if it doesn't sound like X". :?

There's merit in this argument. It sort of runs two ways, that it's an open language for all, but on the other hand it did have a specified sound/pronunciation system. When I went to one of the Esperanto conferences, quite some time ago now, I felt the speakers from backgrounds like Spanish/Italian spoke it as I imagine it ideally sounds. There are however loads of speakers who use uvular fricative 'r' and while it has pretty much zero effect on intelligibility, it's only with Esperanto that you can do this (and get away with it). If it was Italian it would be acknowledged that the person is not doing the pronunciation correctly. Just like if I went around in Paris using a trilled 'r'. Everyone would immediately be trying to correct me.
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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby Le Baron » Wed May 25, 2022 4:09 pm

luke wrote:
Le Baron wrote:This is only my opinion of course.

I don't want to hijack Mr. Iversen's log, but I'm fond of the Russian Л for Esperanto 'L'.



This is quite amusing. Back when I started learning Dutch I'd actually been busy with Russian and the sound system was in my head. So I had this Dutch person coaching me on Dutch sounds and me saying them in a distinctly Russian way. Words life 'liefje', imagine someone saying it in a Russian accent. It was ridiculous and a little while before I could get past it. :lol:
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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby Iversen » Thu May 26, 2022 6:18 am

It's nice that others can keep this thread running when I'm occupied elsewhere - for the time being I'm switching between my birdie project and gardening + cooking at my mother's place, and there's not much language learning involved in either thing - and no travelling. However it has been announced that there will be sold tickets for free public transport during one week again this year (from June 1), and I'll probably buy one or two of those. And if I'm Copenhagen I can also venture across to Sweden to hear some Swedish. Besides the new 9 € ticket in German for a whole month sounds so alluring that I'll have a hard time to resist going to Germany - even If I have to return back to Denmark at least once every week after each visit down there. It's a problematic time in many ways. I would have stayed at home finishing the last half of the Passeriformes (birds), but I just had a telephone call that means that I have to visit my mother today instead of Saturday, and things like that makes it difficult to plan ahead, let alone visit places far away. And before I have done the birds I won't be studying languages apart from some goodnight reading and maybe a wordlist or two plus television in a few of my languages - but not those that need it most.

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Iversen
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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby Iversen » Sat May 28, 2022 9:50 am

I finished the passerine birds yesterday, and now I feel sufficiently updated regarding my knowledge about vertebrate zoological nomenclature. I know that there are fish swimming around in wet spots on the planet, but right now I think I can resist the temptation to make a (partial) inventory of them like the ones I have made for everything from Coelecanths ('blue fish') to Sapientes - if not, then I tell myself that Wikipedia assess the number of documented species of bony fish alone to around 32,000. I also stopped collecting species names as a youngster at that point for precisely the same reason - and back then the number of documented species was lower...

I celebrated the event by grabbing the inexhaustible issue of the airline magazine "Blue" in Greek and copying/studying an article about a new museum for modern art in Athens. However the element of studying was more limited than with a weaker language since I basically understood the text and just had to get 'back into the groove'. But even then there were some new words to learn, like "κυλιόμενη σκάλα" for an escalator. The dictionary I used was an old Greek->German Langenscheidt from 1969, and to my surprise it didn't contain the word "κυλιόμενη", but it actually seems that those contraptions have been in use since 1897 where the first one was installed at Coney Island, New York (though already patented in 1859), so for once it was not just because the thing had been invented since the dictionary was published. I also have some quite good Danish-Greek and Greek-Danish dictionaries (somewhat newer), but occasionally still use the old German one in spite of its old spelling because it's handy and comprehensive - and it's so old and worn out that it doesn't shut automatically if I leave it open. My new yellow Langenscheidt does that, and it's a problem.

GR: Το ανωτέρω μουσείο ονομάζεται «Εθνικό Μουσείο Σύγχρονης Τέχνης» (ή ΕΜΣΤ) και φαίνεται να είναι αρκετά εκτεταμένο. Έχω επισκεφτεί αρκετές φορές την Αθήνα, αλλά δεν έχω επισκεφτεί αυτό το μουσείο, που εγκαινιάστηκε το έτος 2000 και βρίσκεται ένα χιλιόμετρο νότια του λόφου του Φιλοπάππου. Φυσικά έχει ιστοσελίδα σε παράλληλη ελληνική και αγγλική έκδοση, αλλά χαλάει την ελληνική έκδοση ότι υπάρχουν λέξεις στην αγγλική γλώσσα. Για παράδειγμα, αυτή τη στιγμή έχουν μια ειδική έκθεση που ονομάζεται "ΑΜΑΖΟΝΙΟΣ - we are sailing with a corpse in the cargo". Φυσικά, δεν μπόρεσα να αντισταθώ στον πειρασμό να δω τι έχει, και ... όχι, ας το πάρουμε αυτό στα πορτογαλικά:

POR
: Olá, estou aqui de novo! Mas, infelizmente, não havia muito sobre o rio ou a floresta tropical, e não havia nem mesmo uma carcaça. A exposição mostra apenas a bagunça no ateliê do artista, que foi transferido para Atenas por pessoas que o acharam interessante.

EN: Back to English: Because of my family visits and my species project I have been spending most of the time I had in my hometown within the four walls of my flat, and since it's nice weather today I may venture out into the town to see whether it still exists and whether my legs still can carry me more than a few meters. I did do a preliminary test of my physical condition this morning by taking down approximately 1.2 meters of old newspapers to a container outside the building, and for that I used a two-wheeled thing which I bought last time I moved (in 2008), and now it suddenly occurs to me that I have forgotten the name of the darned thing .. even in Danish! But hurray for the internet (and Google) - you can look such things up, and the things is called a "sækkevogn" in Danish - and "hand truck, also known as a hand trolley, dolly, stack truck, trundler, box cart, sack barrow, cart, sack truck, two wheeler, or bag barrow," in English. Which reminds me of my experiences with animal names in English - they have a tendency to breed..

And when I return I'll do something about my Slavic languages, which haven't got the attention they crave while my nomenclatorial project was runing its course.

Coney Island escalator (Wikimedia).jpg

PS (DA): Jeg ville have vist en sækkevogn stablet med 1.2 meter gamle aviser på, men glemte at fotografere den inden jeg kørte bunken ned...
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Re: Iversen's second multiconfused log thread

Postby Iversen » Sat May 28, 2022 8:09 pm

The evening has just started, and I have still time to do the Slavic thing I mentioned earlier today. But I somehow ended up doing Germanic languages with the help of Youtube instead. It all began when I saw a reference to Afrikaans and thought that it would be nice to hear a little bit of that taal again, and then I started out with Charlize Theron being interviewed by the Flemish journalist Ward Verrijcken and answering in Afrikaans - it seems to go perfectly smoothly: they can understand each other, and I can understand both of them. What more can you ask for? But unfortunately the passage on the internet only lasts 1:19 minut.

After that I went to the channel of Ecolinguist, where I first watched the beginning of a game where native speakers of German and Swedish are supposed to prove that they can understand Afrikaans - but after the introduction they ended up in a format where the Afrikaaner (Rean Pelse) just read some sentences aloud and in between they all spoke English. So I quit, but luckily the same constellation of people repeats the show here, and this time they speak their own languages. But the two testees are in trouble almost all the time - and nobody seems to realize exactly how bad the answers are. There is another pair of videos where English speakers try to understand Dutch - with similarly limited success. In the first video they speak English between the example sentences, which kills the format, but in the second one the Dutch speaker (Kim Jautze) actually speaks Dutch most of the time- and then the three testees have problems understanding her. In another quiz the plot is to let native Dutch and Flemish speakers try to decode spoken German, and there the success rate may be a tad higher. In this video they also succomb to the tentation of speaking a common language, but here it is at least German, not English.

DU: Ik kan redelijk begrijpen dat Europeanen ([AF:] behalwe Hollanders en Vlaminge, wat nie veel moeite behoort te hê om Afrikaans te verstaan ​​nie)[DU:] moeite hebben met het begrijpen van 't Afrikaans, want dat is nog ver weg, maar er zijn naar verluidt 20 miljoen mensen in Europa die Nederlands of Vlaams als moedertaal hebben, en die leven vlak naast de mensen die hen niet begrijpen.

EN: There is also a quiz where speakers of Modern English try to understand Anglosaxon (simple sentences like "Ic hæbbe six and twenty feoh butan min hus"), but once again they spoil the fun by speaking Modern English most of the time. However the problem could be to find people who are fluent speakers of Old English. And to boot there is even a video where three non-native German speakers try to understand Danish, but this video is spoiled by another error, namely much too long and complicated sentences.

GER: Von Ecolinguist bin ich zu den 'Leichten Sprachen' (Easy Languages) gewechselt, wo Claudia Schmid ihre hochdeutschen Sätze ins Zürcher Schwyzerdütsch von Claudia Faes übersetzen lässt, und mitunter sieht sie etwas sie sieht etwas ratlos aus weil sie nix davon versteht. Es gibt ein weiteres Video, in dem sie dieselbe Claudia und einen anderen Einheimischen (genannt Nino) begleitet und die zwei Schweizer fragen (im Zürcher Dialekt), was die Leute zum Frühstück gegessen haben. Und es ist nie ein Standard-Brötchen mit Butter – manche frühstücken gar nicht, andere essen Müssli, und keine zwei essen das gleiche.

Leichte Sprache? Quatsch! Schwiizertüütsch gilt als Dialekt, aber es hätte eine selbstständige Sprache (vermutlich namens Alemannisch) werden können, aber die Schweizer haben es anscheinend anders gewollt. Stattdessen ist sie die private Umgangssprache der Schweizer geworden (mit zich Tausend varianten), aber die Deutschschweizer unter ihnen sprechen alle auch Hochdeutsch und schreiben in der Regel nur auf Hochdeutsch und sprechen nur Deutsch zu Ausländer - was das Lernen für Außenstehende erheblich erschwert. Es ist fast so, als würde man versuchen, sich in eine ihrer Banken einzuschleichen! Aber nebenbei habe ich eine nette Quelle für mehr gesprochenes Schweizerdeutsch gefunden, eine Reihe von Leuten, die wagen indonesische Gerichte und Süßigkeiten zu probieren - und diese Videos sind leichter zu verstehen als die aus Zürich - und gleich unterhaltsam.

Auch das österreichische Deutsch hat übrigens seine Eigenheiten (dargestellt in diesem Video), aber nicht ganz auf dem gleichen Niveau wie das hartgesottene Schweizerdeutsch.


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