Geschiedenis van Nederland (Dutch log)

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Le Baron
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Re: Geschiedenis van Nederland (Dutch log)

Postby Le Baron » Wed Jan 26, 2022 8:05 pm

I can't work out what the 'tøy' bit is! Ah well.
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Re: Geschiedenis van Nederland (Dutch log)

Postby tungemål » Wed Jan 26, 2022 8:18 pm

Actually, that's an interesting word.

It's the same as German Zeug.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Zeug
It's an old word that means gear, equipment, but also cloth, fabric. As a word alone it means "thing" in German, but in Norwegian it normally has the second definition. But in compounds, it often has the first definition.

In Berlin there is a building called "Zeughaus". Traditionally this is translated as tøyhus in Norwegian, which makes me think of a warehouse for fabrics. But it was a storage for arms.

And:
since this is a Dutch log: The Dutch word is tuig, which seems to have a similar meaning to the German word, but I don't know how much it's used. I don't think I've ever seen that word.
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Re: Geschiedenis van Nederland (Dutch log)

Postby Le Baron » Wed Jan 26, 2022 8:34 pm

tungemål wrote:Actually, that's an interesting word.

It's the same as German Zeug.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Zeug
It's an old word that means gear, equipment, but also cloth, fabric. As a word alone it means "thing" in German, but in Norwegian it normally has the second definition. But in compounds, it often has the first definition.

In Berlin there is a building called "Zeughaus". Traditionally this is translated as tøyhus in Norwegian, which makes me think of a warehouse for fabrics. But it was a storage for arms.

And:
since this is a Dutch log: The Dutch word is tuig, which seems to have a similar meaning to the German word, but I don't know how much it's used. I don't think I've ever seen that word.

Great! I wouldn't have linked it to zeug, a word I know and it's so common (werkzeug and that feuerzeug etc).

Re: tuig. Think of well-used words like vliegtuig, voertuig. Also werktuig like werkzeug is still common. It also means the rigging on a ship. As a common vernacular word it's often used to mean rough, ill-mannered people who are considered no good. That horrible yellow-haired Geert Wilders referred to Moroccon people as 'tuig'. He hadn't looked in the mirror recently.
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Re: Geschiedenis van Nederland (Dutch log)

Postby tungemål » Wed Jan 26, 2022 8:56 pm

Le Baron wrote:Re: tuig. Think of well-used words like vliegtuig, voertuig. Also werktuig like werkzeug is still common. It also means the rigging on a ship. As a common vernacular word it's often used to mean rough, ill-mannered people who are considered no good. That horrible yellow-haired Geert Wilders referred to Moroccon people as 'tuig'. He hadn't looked in the mirror recently.

Yes, I know the compounds, but haven't seen tuig by itself. Norwegian also has for instance verktøy like werktuig.
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Re: Geschiedenis van Nederland (Dutch log)

Postby tungemål » Fri Jan 28, 2022 2:00 pm

I was in H. C. Andersen mode, and read the famous story "Het meisje met de zwavelstokjes".

I also studied the use of er in Dutch:
https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 75#p202775
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Re: Geschiedenis van Nederland (Dutch log)

Postby tungemål » Wed Feb 02, 2022 9:13 am

I've started reading the "Geschiedenis van Nederland", which I think will be interesting.

As I read I notice that my Dutch comes back pretty quickly. I've always felt that it's easier to read Dutch than understand the spoken language. It could be a couple of reasons for that, but I think that the Dutch pronunciation is pretty different from the Norwegian:
- obviously the pronunciation of "G"
- the "R" is strange sounds similar to the English
- the "V" is different
- the "S" also - reminds me of the Spanish S as it's sometimes pronounced
- the "T" also seems similar to Spanish T, that is, not aspirated.
- and of course also the vowels.

Well, I'm aiming for a perfect "Dutch spoken with a Norwegian accent". But also to easily understand e.g. Dutch radio. So I need to practice listening. I'll try a podcast for Dutch learners: "Dutch with Lianne".
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Re: Geschiedenis van Nederland (Dutch log)

Postby Ogrim » Wed Feb 02, 2022 3:10 pm

tungemål wrote:I've started reading the "Geschiedenis van Nederland", which I think will be interesting.

As I read I notice that my Dutch comes back pretty quickly. I've always felt that it's easier to read Dutch than understand the spoken language. It could be a couple of reasons for that, but I think that the Dutch pronunciation is pretty different from the Norwegian:
- obviously the pronunciation of "G"
- the "R" is strange sounds similar to the English
- the "V" is different
- the "S" also - reminds me of the Spanish S as it's sometimes pronounced
- the "T" also seems similar to Spanish T, that is, not aspirated.
- and of course also the vowels.


I can relate to what you say here. I learnt Dutch in Belgium over 20 years ago, with Flemish-speaking teachers, and the Flemish pronunciation is much easier for us Norwegians than that of Netherlands Dutch. I also have "problems" with the R-sound, and generally Flemish sounds much more "open" than NL Dutch, where certain sounds seem to be "swallowed" a lot more.

I will check out the podcast you mention, so far I've mostly been using the Dutch TV app NPO to listen to NL Dutch- I watch the news, I've watched some documentaries and I've tried out a few Dutch TV series, like Onze Straat and Zina (although this last one is geoblocked so you have to get around that if you want to watch it).
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Re: Geschiedenis van Nederland (Dutch log)

Postby Le Baron » Wed Feb 02, 2022 6:19 pm

tungemål wrote:the "R" is strange sounds similar to the English

I saw this in another thread, but not sure who said it? To that I said then that this is only in one area of NL and it's known as a 'Gooische 'r' from around the media world in Hilversum. No doubt it has influenced some people's pronunciation (notably some of the young middle-classes), but it isn't the norm or the standard pronunciation for the majority. It is also widely mocked here, so it's not what most people are doing.

In any case it sounds more like American English, not like 'English' English where you barely hear an 'r' in most of those usages.
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Re: Geschiedenis van Nederland (Dutch log)

Postby tungemål » Wed Feb 02, 2022 6:36 pm

Yes, that was me who said it in the Dutch group thread.
I often hear it, but I don't know how prevalent that R is, but if it's not the standard then I'm sticking with a trilled R.

On a related note - the disappearing "N" is standard, isn't it? Like you'd say "zitte" for "zitten" and "leze" for "lezen".
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Re: Geschiedenis van Nederland (Dutch log)

Postby Le Baron » Wed Feb 02, 2022 7:07 pm

tungemål wrote:Yes, that was me who said it in the Dutch group thread.
I often hear it, but I don't know how prevalent that R is, but if it's not the standard then I'm sticking with a trilled R.

Let me just be sure we're on the same page. The 'gooische r' is really noticiable and sounds like an actual American English 'r' with the tongue curled back. The standard Dutch 'r' is just like a French/German one scraped or an uvular trill. Further south it fades into the trill/tap in Belgium (though they also use a guttural one in places. Quite a lot of people in Friesland also use trill/tap.

tungemål wrote:On a related note - the disappearing "N" is standard, isn't it? Like you'd say "zitte" for "zitten" and "leze" for "lezen".

Yes indeed. I think this has been around for well over a hundred years in the common spoken language, but a Dutch person in the know would have to comment upon that. It's not on every word or in every case though. Words like weten and wachten and spelen and dozens more are spoken complete with the final -n. Depending on where they arrive in the sentence, how quickly the person is speaking, how long the sentence is, what their general accent and speech register happens to be. That sort of thing.

It disappears quite a bit though. All those well-known phrases like 'effe checken' and e.g. 'hebben' in final position all see the -n disappear.
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