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jeffers
Blue Belt
Posts: 535
Joined: Sat Aug 22, 2015 4:12 pm
Location: UK
Languages: Speaks: English (N), Hindi (A2-B1)

Learning: The above, plus French (A2-B1), German (A1), Ancient Greek (?), Sanskrit (beginner)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... p?p=190813
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Re: Tatort und whatever

Postby jeffers » Wed Aug 04, 2021 9:23 am

gsbod wrote:So far so good. The action starts at a hospital in Düsseldorf, so having the characters actually speak German makes a lot of sense. And yet, as I'm reading it, the voice in my head is definitely sounding like German dubbing rather than natural German...


That makes sense, it being a psychological thriller. It's how they would want you to hear it.
0 x
Le mieux est l'ennemi du bien (roughly, the perfect is the enemy of the good)

French SC Books: 2925 / 5000 (2925/5000 pp)
French SC Films: 9000 / 9000 (9000/9000 mins)

Grammaire progressive intermédiaire: 59 / 257 (59/257 pp)

gsbod
Blue Belt
Posts: 618
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2015 3:22 pm
Location: UK
Languages: English (native), German (C1), French (B1), Spanish (A1), Welsh (A0), Japanese (JLPT N2)
Language Log: viewtopic.php?t=1152
x 1948

Re: Tatort und whatever

Postby gsbod » Mon Aug 09, 2021 8:19 pm

So now I'm learning Welsh.

It all started with a task I had to do at work which felt rather a lot like a Welsh grammar exercise. Now this is not a normal part of my job at all. We do have to provide some services in Welsh, but we've staff and infrastructure in place to do that while people like me can remain happily monolingual (or at least, devoting themselves to languages spoken in other countries and/or timelines...)

But since foreign travel is still not an option, and living and working in the EU is now one great visa headache, I might as well have a go with a language that is actually right on my doorstep.

Being a much smaller language than any I've previously attempted, there are fewer learning materials available, so rather than hunting for the best course, I'm in the process of figuring out how to make the best use of what's available (while trying not to distract myself with the complaint that nothing is as good as Begegnungen so everyone ought to just learn German instead). So at least that's something different.

Currently the plan is as follows:
- figure out how to make the best use of the materials on https://learnwelsh.cymru, which look great for vocabulary and audio (although you have to use their clunky website app thing to access the audio, but at least it's all there), but not so great for grammar explanations or practice (the assumption is you're using the materials in a classroom and are therefore at the mercy of your Welsh tutor for this). They're also free of charge, although I've just handed over £10 for a print version of the Mynediad (A1) textbook because I don't like reading textbooks from a screen
- supplement with Gareth King's Basic Welsh: A Grammar and Workbook - which actually looks like my kind of grammar workbook

I've also decided to use Anki but am tweaking the settings as suggested on sfuqua's log. I used the new default settings as suggested but realised pretty quickly that the two step reviews in the learning phase is pretty pointless for me, as I make the cards myself from lists I've made myself, so I don't need to see new cards twice in the first session they appear. But I've tweaked all the other settings and will see if it makes a difference.

The courses on learnwelsh.cymru have actually all been set up with corresponding courses/decks on Quizlet, Memrise and Duolingo. But since I prefer Anki, I shall be carrying on making my own vocabulary deck (which is part of the learning process for me anyway...)
7 x
„Wahrlich es ist nicht das Wissen, sondern das Lernen, nicht das Besitzen, sondern das Erwerben, nicht das Da-Seyn, sondern das Hinkommen, was den grössten Genuss gewährt.“ - Carl Friedrich Gauss

jeffers
Blue Belt
Posts: 535
Joined: Sat Aug 22, 2015 4:12 pm
Location: UK
Languages: Speaks: English (N), Hindi (A2-B1)

Learning: The above, plus French (A2-B1), German (A1), Ancient Greek (?), Sanskrit (beginner)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... p?p=190813
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Re: Tatort und whatever

Postby jeffers » Mon Aug 09, 2021 9:45 pm

gsbod wrote:(while trying not to distract myself with the complaint that nothing is as good as Begegnungen so everyone ought to just learn German instead).


I'm on a break from German for a while, but I've never heard of Begegnungen. What is so special about it?
0 x
Le mieux est l'ennemi du bien (roughly, the perfect is the enemy of the good)

French SC Books: 2925 / 5000 (2925/5000 pp)
French SC Films: 9000 / 9000 (9000/9000 mins)

Grammaire progressive intermédiaire: 59 / 257 (59/257 pp)

gsbod
Blue Belt
Posts: 618
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2015 3:22 pm
Location: UK
Languages: English (native), German (C1), French (B1), Spanish (A1), Welsh (A0), Japanese (JLPT N2)
Language Log: viewtopic.php?t=1152
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Re: Tatort und whatever

Postby gsbod » Tue Aug 10, 2021 11:49 am

jeffers wrote:I'm on a break from German for a while, but I've never heard of Begegnungen. What is so special about it?


It's just a series of monolingual German textbooks aligned with the CEFR framework, with one volume for each level from A1 to B1. But it introduces German grammar in a really nicely structured way with plenty of exercises and reinforcement throughout. Imagine something like the Grammaire Progressive books, but with plenty of listening, reading, speaking, writing and vocabulary exercises alongside the grammar stuff, and everything you need for each CEFR level is published in one single, fairly priced volume (so no faffing about having to buy extra workbooks or answer books or whatever). My only complaints are that it is a little dry, and the audio recordings are not particularly imaginative (although they do the job and you can supplement with all the cool free stuff on dw.de anyway).
3 x
„Wahrlich es ist nicht das Wissen, sondern das Lernen, nicht das Besitzen, sondern das Erwerben, nicht das Da-Seyn, sondern das Hinkommen, was den grössten Genuss gewährt.“ - Carl Friedrich Gauss

gsbod
Blue Belt
Posts: 618
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Languages: English (native), German (C1), French (B1), Spanish (A1), Welsh (A0), Japanese (JLPT N2)
Language Log: viewtopic.php?t=1152
x 1948

Re: Dw i'n gwylio Tatort

Postby gsbod » Tue Aug 10, 2021 6:06 pm

The Mynediad coursebook arrived today. The binding is really loose, I think the idea is you can put it into a binder, so I'm going to have to order some treasury tags or something so I don't end up losing pages from it. Shouldn't complain too much. I think it's the cheapest A1 textbook I've ever bought.

Having the paper version has given me a much better overview of how the course is structured. There are more explanations than I previously realised, these are just put at the end of each unit under "Help llaw (top tips)". There are also some additional practice exercises for each unit at the back of the book. No answers, sadly (I hate the way course designers of texts aimed at adults feel it is necessary to omit these - like we can't be trusted?). But altogether, as an experienced language learner, there is enough here for me to work with. And I can't complain about the price.

In terms of pronunciation the vowels are a problem, because vowels are always a problem for me. The consonants, on the other hand, I thought I had nailed down years ago for dealing with place names and the like. But the word "darllen" is really giving me some grief with the ar + ll combination.
5 x
„Wahrlich es ist nicht das Wissen, sondern das Lernen, nicht das Besitzen, sondern das Erwerben, nicht das Da-Seyn, sondern das Hinkommen, was den grössten Genuss gewährt.“ - Carl Friedrich Gauss

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Random Review
Green Belt
Posts: 445
Joined: Tue Jul 21, 2015 8:41 pm
Location: UK/Spain/China
Languages: En (N), Es (int), De (pre-int), Pt (pre-int), Zh-CN (beg), El (beg), yid (beg)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 75#p123375
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Re: Dw i'n gwylio Tatort

Postby Random Review » Tue Aug 10, 2021 6:29 pm

@gsbod: fellow Welsh learner here. I can't wait to follow your journey.
1 x
German input 100 hours by 30-06: 4 / 100
Spanish input 200 hours by 30-06: 0 / 200
German study 50 hours by 30-06: 3 / 100
Spanish study 200 hours by 30-06: 0 / 200
Spanish conversation 100 hours by 30-06: 0 / 100

gsbod
Blue Belt
Posts: 618
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2015 3:22 pm
Location: UK
Languages: English (native), German (C1), French (B1), Spanish (A1), Welsh (A0), Japanese (JLPT N2)
Language Log: viewtopic.php?t=1152
x 1948

Re: Dw i'n gwylio Tatort

Postby gsbod » Thu Aug 12, 2021 6:51 pm

Today I learned that the Welsh word for "to iron" is "smwddio" (for those not in the know, this is pronounced a bit like "smoothio"). :lol:

I've now moved on to unit 2. There seems to be quite a bit of vocabulary to cover, but it's a bit light in terms of grammar. I think the idea is to teach you a few really basic sentence patterns (e.g. I am X-ing, you are X-ing) so people can start plugging things together and make up basic conversations, as long as they're happy just to talk about themselves in a simple way without understanding very much (to be fair, I know people who are happy with this arrangement in their own native language, let alone a foreign one...).

I can see that the verb "bod" ("to be") is quite important, as it forms part of the construction of the present tense for any verb, but also has many forms, as it seems to have slightly different forms depending on whether you are asking a question, making a statement, and whether you are saying something affirmative or negative, in addition to the changes for parts of speech which I would generally expect from an Indo European language.

This is also why I'm glad I got the Basic Welsh Grammar and Workbook, which despite being a lot slimmer than expected (given the price...) is a nicely structured progressive grammar workbook. And unit 3 gives me everything I need to know, for the time being, about "bod" in the present tense, rather than drip feeding it.

Still, although it's good I can look things up in the Grammar Workbook, I think I'm mainly going to use the Mynediad course to work on pronunciation and build a core vocabulary of a couple of hundred words before starting to work through the Grammar Workbook more systematically. I like having an overview of the grammar early on, so I know what to look out for and can start recognising how things fit into a bigger system, but in terms of learning to put it into practice it's still easy to get overloaded trying to do too much too soon.
4 x
„Wahrlich es ist nicht das Wissen, sondern das Lernen, nicht das Besitzen, sondern das Erwerben, nicht das Da-Seyn, sondern das Hinkommen, was den grössten Genuss gewährt.“ - Carl Friedrich Gauss

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Le Baron
Blue Belt
Posts: 653
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2021 5:14 pm
Location: The scullery
Languages: English (N), Nederlands, Français, Deutsch, Sranantongo (rusty), Esperanto.
Studying: Castellano, Indonesian, (Swahili - in storage). Dabbled in: Cantonese, Indonesian, Russian, Norwegian, Hawaiian.
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Re: Dw i'n gwylio Tatort

Postby Le Baron » Thu Aug 12, 2021 7:54 pm

Do you live near Wales (or in Wales perhaps)? I'm wondering how eager you are have a go 'in the rough'. I lived on Anglesey (okay, Ynys Môn for the purists :D ) right next to Menai Bridge (first residential building after the pub). With my girlfriend who attended Bangor University, whereas I had to traipse all the way into England for my final year. Anyway, she threw herself into learning Welsh, but I didn't really have the time or energy. I always feel it was a lost opportunity.

I really think Welsh should be taught in English schools.
0 x
20 books for 2021: 16 / 20

gsbod
Blue Belt
Posts: 618
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2015 3:22 pm
Location: UK
Languages: English (native), German (C1), French (B1), Spanish (A1), Welsh (A0), Japanese (JLPT N2)
Language Log: viewtopic.php?t=1152
x 1948

Re: Dw i'n gwylio Tatort

Postby gsbod » Thu Aug 12, 2021 9:06 pm

I do live in or near Wales, but nowhere near Bangor. I'm sure I'll end up speaking Welsh to a real person at some point, although I've got a bit more groundwork to do before I'm ready for that.

It's an interesting idea to teach Welsh in English schools, although I think most English school kids would end up not learning very much and finding the whole thing pointless, much in the same way they currently do with French, or German, or whatever language they're forced to learn. And anyway, should they start with North Wales or South Wales variants?
0 x
„Wahrlich es ist nicht das Wissen, sondern das Lernen, nicht das Besitzen, sondern das Erwerben, nicht das Da-Seyn, sondern das Hinkommen, was den grössten Genuss gewährt.“ - Carl Friedrich Gauss

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Le Baron
Blue Belt
Posts: 653
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2021 5:14 pm
Location: The scullery
Languages: English (N), Nederlands, Français, Deutsch, Sranantongo (rusty), Esperanto.
Studying: Castellano, Indonesian, (Swahili - in storage). Dabbled in: Cantonese, Indonesian, Russian, Norwegian, Hawaiian.
x 1490

Re: Dw i'n gwylio Tatort

Postby Le Baron » Thu Aug 12, 2021 10:00 pm

gsbod wrote:I do live in or near Wales, but nowhere near Bangor. I'm sure I'll end up speaking Welsh to a real person at some point, although I've got a bit more groundwork to do before I'm ready for that.

It's an interesting idea to teach Welsh in English schools, although I think most English school kids would end up not learning very much and finding the whole thing pointless, much in the same way they currently do with French, or German, or whatever language they're forced to learn. And anyway, should they start with North Wales or South Wales variants?


I thought about it years ago because I attended a school on the border near Chester. And went for many a holiday in Wales. It seemed to me absurd that the nearest language other than English, with doorstep opportunities of speaking it, wasn't even on the curriculum of at least border schools. Of course there's a national curriculum, but it is elastic in many ways. Imagine excellent field trips merely by coach where the kids can go into shops and ask for things in Welsh and listen to a museum guide giving the tour in Welsh!

No need to get on a ferry for that. In fact all the Brexiteers in that government should be clamouring for it! But seriously it seems to me just wrong that it's confined beyond the border like that.
2 x
20 books for 2021: 16 / 20


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