rdearman wrote:PeterMollenburg wrote:When listening to podcasts I often hear French people throw in random English words that definitely are not recognised in French (they are straight up English words or expressions) to sound cooler it seems or something else, but either way it annoys the hell out of me.
You might want to be careful here. There are many French words which are taken from English, but do not actually have the same meaning. E.g. the French took the word and made it their own. So they aren't just throwing in random English words to sound cool.
Some examples are: "Footing", which to the French is a verb meaning to run slowly. We use "jogging" in English for this, but jogging for the French are tracksuit bottoms (sweatpants for Americans). Pressing = Dry cleaning, Brushing = Blow-drying your hair. Or "dressing" which means the same as wardrobe in English but in English dressing is something you put on salad.
Well, even in my French grammar books/courses I've come across plenty of examples like yours. Due to my desire to sound as French as possible, I find I almost always look up such words. I generally get two answers I need- 1. Is it in the FR dictionary as an anglicism or is it a French speaker being trendy using an English word (sometimes these appear in my Le Robert dictionary app). 2. If it is there, the IPA will give me one (sometimes more) way(s) in which to pronounce it in a French way. Traditionally French words (as opposed to more recent borrowings) are phontically generally much easier to assume their correct pronunciation.
So, yeah I knew about such words as 'le footing', 'le pressing', 'un smoking' and am happy to employ such words the way the French use them, but didn't know of 'le brushing'. Still, I'll go for a 'more French' equivalent if one exists and doesn't stand out as ridiculous.
Cavesa wrote:PeterMollenburg wrote:On the French anglicism thing...
I am a bit of a purist when it comes to French. Oddly, I'm not as bothered by this for Dutch and i suspect it's something to do with Dutch and English being Germanic, Dutch being a smaller language and French phonetically being more different than Dutch is to English. If there's a perfectly good French equivalent, why use an English word? If there is an anglicism that is accepted into the language to the point it is in Le Robert dictionary, I'm happy to use it here and there but prefer the more original French version if one exists. To get to the point, I will use the anglicisms with their French pronunciation as listed in the dictionary in IPA format. If it's not in the dictionary and it's therefore not a recognised French word borrowed from English, shove it, I'm not using it. When listening to podcasts I often hear French people throw in random English words that definitely are not recognised in French (they are straight up English words or expressions) to sound cooler it seems or something else, but either way it annoys the hell out of me. You do not sound cooler (to me), you're just annoying me (in truth that's my problem, not theirs).
So Good luck with your German mission!
The thing is, that there is sometimes no perfectly good equivalent, and sometimes there is. And the use of the anglicisms doesn't always correlate with this reality. This recent rekindling of interest in the topic started for me on Agorima's log, where they were very critical towards anglicisms in Czech. However, majority of their examples actually didn't have a perfectly good Czech equivalent, all the closest ones meant something different.
I tend to side a bit with the purists in French too, because French doesn't actually have some of the problems Czech does. It has very rich vocab with Latin roots, so sticking to French doesn't create any supplemental barrier. It has a real tradition but can also react well to the modern world. However, some anglicisms are necessary and insisting on purism only alienates the standard with the really used language.
I mostly like your approach, with acknowledging the official anglicisms and their official pronunciation. But there are a few catches: the first is a practical one, I don't really have time to check everything in a dictionary, and will forget it by the time I find a moment. And a second one: do you treat just as harshly new purely French words? Or is there a double standard?
The perfect example is "chronophage". It is a perfect word, and there is no traditional equivalent really expressing the same thing without having to use several words. It is a French word, not an anglicism. But still, some purist don't even like such neologisms. It officially doesn't exist.
And the third issue: What is "more French" or rather "more natural" or "more native like"? Sticking to the standard vocabulary and protecting the language, or going with the flow and commiting the same linguistic atrocities as the people around you? I don't think there is any universal answer.rdearman wrote:PeterMollenburg wrote:When listening to podcasts I often hear French people throw in random English words that definitely are not recognised in French (they are straight up English words or expressions) to sound cooler it seems or something else, but either way it annoys the hell out of me.
You might want to be careful here. There are many French words which are taken from English, but do not actually have the same meaning. E.g. the French took the word and made it their own. So they aren't just throwing in random English words to sound cool.
Some examples are: "Footing", which to the French is a verb meaning to run slowly. We use "jogging" in English for this, but jogging for the French are tracksuit bottoms (sweatpants for Americans). Pressing = Dry cleaning, Brushing = Blow-drying your hair. Or "dressing" which means the same as wardrobe in English but in English dressing is something you put on salad.
Yes, this definitely happens. It is confusing. But while we may opt to use more French words, when available, I simply don't think a non native speaker should try to correct the natives or simply avoid the normal use of these words. You will just appear more weird. And imagine just HOW uncomfortable this is for me, a non native speaker of both English and French!
I definitely wouldn't want to go as far as to using the weird anglicized corporate newspeak (which is definitely mostly a show off opportunity), but if I want to watch the wonderful fashion and looks videos in a facebook group or on youtube, I simply need to understand "brushing" and similar words. And if I want to talk with normal people about such stuff, I simply cannot be a purist, or I'll look like a typical beginner speaking like a textbook.
I guess I try to be as French as possible, so this ironically means that I'll choose to use anglicisms even when there's a French equivalent but it's not readily accepted by the French. For example, I find myself preferring 'podcast' over 'balado(diffusion)' as the latter hasn't caught on so well. 'Podcast' is listed as an anglicism.
However 'cluster' is listed as an English word and during Covid it's been heard everywhere to the point that I anticipate that it'll soon be listed as an anglicism and not just 'mot anglais'. I at least will prefer to use the word 'foyer (infectieux)' until I'm defeated by the army of French ppl who eventually may be offended by an Australian attempting to purify their language
Other examples of anglicisms with existing French equivalents (from Hugo Advanced French):
le fast-food = la restauration rapide
le job = le poste
le walkman = le baladeur
le manager = le gérant
le hobby = le passe-temps
le Web = la toile
le fax = la télécopie
relaxe = détendu
In the past I'd go for the words on the RHS above more than I do nowadays. Lately I follow the trend of the French people more often, but still with more of a purist tendency leaning in some cases than perhaps the average French person.
All in all it's tricky to gauge when I live in an anglophone country and who am I to say how the French use their language! I'm one person, several thousands of kms away. Still, from what I've come to understand that while the French have a somewhat exaggerated reputation as purists, it's the Québecois who are supposedly more protective of their language and more likely to adapt to newly invented French equivalents in an attempt to eradicate anglicisms while combating the immense force of an ocean of English speakers surrounding Québec. Perhaps that's why I'm more protective of French as I live on a continent of English speakers, but then again not every French learner in the anglo-American sphere feels as I do.
So, I would use 'le footing', 'le bowling', 'le jazz', 'un bulldozer' and 'un smoking' as they are widely accepted and in some cases don't match their English meanings. Thus, trying to substitute a 'more French' (ie existing for longer in the French language) word would come off as long-winded ridiculousness, or one simply doesn't exist. These words are French (now), just as 'restaurant' and 'rendez-vous' are English words.
So I would equally use gérant or manager, un test for certain contexts and une épreuve for others, but would prefer un passe-temps over un hobby, détendu instead of relaxe and foyer over cluster, at least for now.
I guess it's not 100% clear and confusion will continue for as long as languages are borrowing words from others whether out of trendiness or for valid use where no native equivalents exist.