Back to the roots and water them with coffee

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Cavesa
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Re: Back to the roots and water them with coffee

Postby Cavesa » Wed May 19, 2021 10:27 am

Ogrim wrote:When in France, do as the French (or the Wallons) ;) . Knowing how good your French is, I don't think anybody will think that you are making fun of them if you use French pronunciation. To the contrary, using real English pronunciation may be seen as you trying to correct them, which is far worse.


I'd love to, if only they'd agree on one way to do this :-D

While I'm definitely against making fun of people's pronunciations usually, I really couldn't help myself in one IT use lecture. Being told a million times to "wefwesh" in one hour, that was just too much. Really, I wished the person would have used either the proper English pronunciation, or a normal French reading of the word without any pretense. It's an example of how doing neither can really complicate comprehension (it took me a long while to figure out the meaning), and it was objectively hilarious. So hard not to laugh out loud.

In Belgium, it is also complicated by the plurilingualism, which in some way affects even the most monolingual towns. I no longer know how to pronouce Delhaize, or PizzaHut.


I am not a purist, but when there is a perfectly good equivalent in the language I don't see the use for a loan word. I also think too often English words are used in French by people (and companies) who want to look "cool" and modern, you see it a lot in advertisements for certain products, particularly if aimed at young people.

Thanks for the video, it's good! Yes, I see how management can be the most plagued by this phenomenon of loand words overuse. Or ads. Some balance is certainly needed. But sometimes, a new word captures some meaning better. In many other cases, it just showing off and snobbism, of course.

I'll probably stick mostly to my habit of pronouncing words the best I can, so an Italian word usually the Italian way, an English one the English way, the French word the French way. Or any way my brain allows at the given moment. But I agree that the ideal is probably always adapting to the local standard.

In the end, I often find that I don't really get a choice, unless I want to compute the pronunciation for several seconds, which damages the communication.
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Cavesa
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Re: Back to the roots and water them with coffee

Postby Cavesa » Thu Jun 03, 2021 3:54 pm

My Italian has indeed improved, I should put a part of the watched tv series to the 6wcbot and the bits of other activities. Too bad no culture I like actually wants doctors. :-(

Well, back to learning German. It's time to give up on dreams and just get a job with money and with freedom (=the diploma of the end of residency) at the end. The Belgians have just refused me entrance to one of the two specialties today. It would be ok, just a bit disappointing, if the concours was a bit better done. But changing the conditions in the middle (they simply decided to not do the interviews in the end. So, I lost the best opportunity to actually get some points, make a good impression, explain the unusual CV, show off my strengths), no tranparence about the criteria and the selection process, insufficient communication, and I have no clue what could be done better. I was treated like trash, almost as I would be in the Czech Republic. And I really believe it more and more, that the good places are reserved for the professors' kids. Nepotism is a huge problem in this country (there was an article about nepotism in the Belgian politics in Le Monde not that long ago).

I am now waiting for the results from the other specialty, where the concours is run in a more standard way. I don't know, whether they'll take me, but at least they haven't treated me like a piece of shit for months. If they take me, I'll accept and hopefully it will turn out fine. But I don't believe anything anymore.

I will sign up for a German B2 exam in August or September. Anything less is worthless. I will continue my internship here, because it is worth it (it's the only wonderful thing in this otherwise dumb, rude, and too czech-like society. I wonder how is it even possible for such a jewel to appear in this pile of shit), even if the idiotic belgian bureaucrats have a problem with that. I don't care anymore. I am so fed up. Germans can only be better than this.
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Cavesa
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Re: Back to the roots and water them with coffee

Postby Cavesa » Thu Jun 03, 2021 8:26 pm

So, I've tried the Italki test, to know how is my German now. There were a few bugs, making it unscorable, support promised to let me know, when they fix it. Great, I keep having awesome luck today.

I've used the Study Time Calculator to know how much work I'll need to put into German in order to succeed.

5 hours a day, spread into 2-3 daily sessions, and I MIGHT have a chance of passing my B2 exm in September (I hope there will be one. I don't mind going to any town to simply get the exam). Without the exam, I cannot start the new round of paperwork.
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Cavesa
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Re: Back to the roots and water them with coffee

Postby Cavesa » Mon Jun 14, 2021 2:36 pm

I've finished the German Italki test. And I've just described the experience in the thread. To cut it short here: it is not a good test, as it placed me in B1 speaking and B2 "grammar". Nope. Unlike the test creators, I know what those levels mean. The first part of the exam is very good, but the free talking exercise is clearly weirdly graded by the computer, and the "grammar" exam is worthless, as it is just a few multiple choice questions with no "I have no clue" option.

What I had expected: Probably A1 or A2 result, and to retake the exam in a few months to motivate and reward myself.
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Re: Back to the roots and water them with coffee

Postby Araminta » Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:24 pm

I just wanted to stop by your log to say I'm so sorry to hear about your Belgian visa experience. But if anyone can make it to B2 in German in a few months, it's you. Best wishes.
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Re: Back to the roots and water them with coffee

Postby Le Baron » Mon Jun 14, 2021 10:42 pm

I read your other lengthy review. It was good. I'd guess that there is some serious 'flexibility' in that italki testing because above all it is a profit earning platform. To test rigorously along certified CEFR lines, with an accredited institution, means telling students what they really need to hear to progress. Quite a lot of online tests are there to massage your ego and take your money for the service.
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Re: Back to the roots and water them with coffee

Postby PeterMollenburg » Tue Jun 15, 2021 6:29 am

Hi Cavesa,

I just saw some of your recent posts I hadn't noticed of late, due to being a little busy perhaps around the times you'd posted. It's a shame your first specialty didn't work out in Belgium. I suspected as you did - "it's not what you know, it's who you know" was playing a role as I was reading your post. Then I saw a line or two later you suspected the same. To simply not give you an interview sounds like there were things going on behind the scenes that you have no influence over (i.e. the candidate(s) had already been chosen). That's unfortunate. But

On the French anglicism thing...
I am a bit of a purist when it comes to French. Oddly, I'm not as bothered by this for Dutch and i suspect it's something to do with Dutch and English being Germanic, Dutch being a smaller language and French phonetically being more different than Dutch is to English. If there's a perfectly good French equivalent, why use an English word? If there is an anglicism that is accepted into the language to the point it is in Le Robert dictionary, I'm happy to use it here and there but prefer the more original French version if one exists. To get to the point, I will use the anglicisms with their French pronunciation as listed in the dictionary in IPA format. If it's not in the dictionary and it's therefore not a recognised French word borrowed from English, shove it, I'm not using it. When listening to podcasts I often hear French people throw in random English words that definitely are not recognised in French (they are straight up English words or expressions) to sound cooler it seems or something else, but either way it annoys the hell out of me. You do not sound cooler (to me), you're just annoying me (in truth that's my problem, not theirs).

So Good luck with your German mission!
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Re: Back to the roots and water them with coffee

Postby rdearman » Tue Jun 15, 2021 9:08 am

PeterMollenburg wrote:When listening to podcasts I often hear French people throw in random English words that definitely are not recognised in French (they are straight up English words or expressions) to sound cooler it seems or something else, but either way it annoys the hell out of me.

You might want to be careful here. There are many French words which are taken from English, but do not actually have the same meaning. E.g. the French took the word and made it their own. So they aren't just throwing in random English words to sound cool.

Some examples are: "Footing", which to the French is a verb meaning to run slowly. We use "jogging" in English for this, but jogging for the French are tracksuit bottoms (sweatpants for Americans). Pressing = Dry cleaning, Brushing = Blow-drying your hair. Or "dressing" which means the same as wardrobe in English but in English dressing is something you put on salad.
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Cavesa
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Re: Back to the roots and water them with coffee

Postby Cavesa » Tue Jun 15, 2021 12:03 pm

Araminta wrote:I just wanted to stop by your log to say I'm so sorry to hear about your Belgian visa experience. But if anyone can make it to B2 in German in a few months, it's you. Best wishes.


Thanks. But it is even worse. I don't need any visa, I am an EU citizen, I should not be discriminated against in any way. I am struggling with residency card, because one idiot gave me wrong information on the conditions months ago and his colleagues pretend it is my mistake. That's the whole issue. It feels extremely unfair, I'm treated as if I was an illiterate poor uneducated person from a third country.

Thanks for your wish. I hope I can seriously get into this. I've just spent a few days away, and every day without 5 hours of German counts a lot. :-D Starting today with the new routine.

I only wish there was something I'd really like about Germany. Because so far, I have found nothing. Some people are able to learn just for money but I am failing at that. To me, it looks like the only things I liked about the germanophone country (such as the classical composers and opera) ended centuries ago.

If only I could find a few good scifi writers. There are some fantasy writers, but the amount pales in comparison with French or even with Czech. The popular music is a disaster, German radios are horrible and there is almost never any good popular music in German. I found some gothic metal I liked, but I am not always in mood for metal. And there are too few tv shows for a language of this size. It will be a struggle. But I have already learnt one language out of spite and despair, so it may work again.

Le Baron wrote:I read your other lengthy review. It was good. I'd guess that there is some serious 'flexibility' in that italki testing because above all it is a profit earning platform. To test rigorously along certified CEFR lines, with an accredited institution, means telling students what they really need to hear to progress. Quite a lot of online tests are there to massage your ego and take your money for the service.


Thanks! I am totally aware that the purpose of the test is improving the sales for the platform. That's why I find it so confusing, that it is so bad at the lower levels, and that it seriously overestimates the skills. Is flattery really the best strategy? Won't the learners react like "naah, I'm B2 already, no need to pay for tutoring"?

The ego massage is indeed comprehensible on some sites. And in most places, such a test is at best a lead on how weel you do in the particular product, nothing to do with the real CEFR. But when I read the description on the italki tutor forum, that the test is meant to help prove the progress to the learner etc, I expected something a bit better. I expected it to be at least as good as most normal level sorting tests for classes.

The sad result is, that I don't get why people hate self-assessment so much and automatically assume people who self assess must be lyers. But there is no other way to assess your level before you pay 200 euro for an official exam and risk failing it. Most online tests are total trash, and most teachers are not better than an educated guess of the learner themselves. Imagine I'd go and just pay for the nearest Goethe Zertifikat B2. I'd lose my investment and the blow to my ego and plans would be rather serious.

Perhaps I hoped for something more reliable, because the test is still far from free, and because one part of it is well thought out.

PeterMollenburg wrote:I suspected as you did - "it's not what you know, it's who you know" was playing a role as I was reading your post. Then I saw a line or two later you suspected the same. To simply not give you an interview sounds like there were things going on behind the scenes that you have no influence over (i.e. the candidate(s) had already been chosen). That's unfortunate. But

Thank you for the sympathy. It is really infuriating. It's one thing to lose in a fair competition, but this is different. I don't know, whether it was due to nepotism, or if they were just too lazy and chose to throw darts on the list instead.

On the French anglicism thing...
I am a bit of a purist when it comes to French. Oddly, I'm not as bothered by this for Dutch and i suspect it's something to do with Dutch and English being Germanic, Dutch being a smaller language and French phonetically being more different than Dutch is to English. If there's a perfectly good French equivalent, why use an English word? If there is an anglicism that is accepted into the language to the point it is in Le Robert dictionary, I'm happy to use it here and there but prefer the more original French version if one exists. To get to the point, I will use the anglicisms with their French pronunciation as listed in the dictionary in IPA format. If it's not in the dictionary and it's therefore not a recognised French word borrowed from English, shove it, I'm not using it. When listening to podcasts I often hear French people throw in random English words that definitely are not recognised in French (they are straight up English words or expressions) to sound cooler it seems or something else, but either way it annoys the hell out of me. You do not sound cooler (to me), you're just annoying me (in truth that's my problem, not theirs).

So Good luck with your German mission!


The thing is, that there is sometimes no perfectly good equivalent, and sometimes there is. And the use of the anglicisms doesn't always correlate with this reality. This recent rekindling of interest in the topic started for me on Agorima's log, where they were very critical towards anglicisms in Czech. However, majority of their examples actually didn't have a perfectly good Czech equivalent, all the closest ones meant something different.

I tend to side a bit with the purists in French too, because French doesn't actually have some of the problems Czech does. It has very rich vocab with Latin roots, so sticking to French doesn't create any supplemental barrier. It has a real tradition but can also react well to the modern world. However, some anglicisms are necessary and insisting on purism only alienates the standard with the really used language.

I mostly like your approach, with acknowledging the official anglicisms and their official pronunciation. But there are a few catches: the first is a practical one, I don't really have time to check everything in a dictionary, and will forget it by the time I find a moment. And a second one: do you treat just as harshly new purely French words? Or is there a double standard?

The perfect example is "chronophage". It is a perfect word, and there is no traditional equivalent really expressing the same thing without having to use several words. It is a French word, not an anglicism. But still, some purist don't even like such neologisms. It officially doesn't exist.

And the third issue: What is "more French" or rather "more natural" or "more native like"? Sticking to the standard vocabulary and protecting the language, or going with the flow and commiting the same linguistic atrocities as the people around you? I don't think there is any universal answer.

rdearman wrote:
PeterMollenburg wrote:When listening to podcasts I often hear French people throw in random English words that definitely are not recognised in French (they are straight up English words or expressions) to sound cooler it seems or something else, but either way it annoys the hell out of me.

You might want to be careful here. There are many French words which are taken from English, but do not actually have the same meaning. E.g. the French took the word and made it their own. So they aren't just throwing in random English words to sound cool.

Some examples are: "Footing", which to the French is a verb meaning to run slowly. We use "jogging" in English for this, but jogging for the French are tracksuit bottoms (sweatpants for Americans). Pressing = Dry cleaning, Brushing = Blow-drying your hair. Or "dressing" which means the same as wardrobe in English but in English dressing is something you put on salad.


Yes, this definitely happens. It is confusing. But while we may opt to use more French words, when available, I simply don't think a non native speaker should try to correct the natives or simply avoid the normal use of these words. You will just appear more weird. And imagine just HOW uncomfortable this is for me, a non native speaker of both English and French! :-D

I definitely wouldn't want to go as far as to using the weird anglicized corporate newspeak (which is definitely mostly a show off opportunity), but if I want to watch the wonderful fashion and looks videos in a facebook group or on youtube, I simply need to understand "brushing" and similar words. And if I want to talk with normal people about such stuff, I simply cannot be a purist, or I'll look like a typical beginner speaking like a textbook.
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Re: Back to the roots and water them with coffee

Postby tiia » Tue Jun 15, 2021 5:52 pm

Cavesa wrote:I only wish there was something I'd really like about Germany. Because so far, I have found nothing. Some people are able to learn just for money but I am failing at that. To me, it looks like the only things I liked about the germanophone country (such as the classical composers and opera) ended centuries ago.

If only I could find a few good scifi writers. There are some fantasy writers, but the amount pales in comparison with French or even with Czech. The popular music is a disaster, German radios are horrible and there is almost never any good popular music in German. I found some gothic metal I liked, but I am not always in mood for metal. And there are too few tv shows for a language of this size. It will be a struggle. But I have already learnt one language out of spite and despair, so it may work again.


Would you be open for recommendations? And if so, what kind of German content are you looking for exactly? Which authors have you found so far? I may recognise some more. I mean Scifi will be harder to find for me, but there are definitely quite some fantasy authors.
What about some humor in form of (youtube) videos/audiobooks whatever? Those things could be quite difficult, if there's too much word play, so I'm not sure how suitable they would be for you. But trying out probably won't hurt. There's definitely some content you will not find translated into other languages.
In case of music.. I don't know what you'd prefer, but there are only very few bands that I like, that sing in German...
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