Learning Japanese from zero by listening: 2021 Log

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vonPeterhof
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Re: Learning Japanese from zero by listening: 2021 Log

Postby vonPeterhof » Wed Apr 14, 2021 4:55 pm

golyplot wrote:In ep200, Noriko says something like today's topic is "zenzen chigau", which left me very confused for a moment because zenzen normally means "not at all", so it sounded like she was saying that the topic was "not at all different" but you would obviously never actually say that (instead you'd just say they're the same or something). I guess this is one of those rare cases of a positive zenzen, or perhaps it's used in negative contexts even if there are other negative words in the sentence, (thus being a double negative from an English perspective).

Well ちがう isn't grammatically negative but it is semantically negative (it's even used as a way of saying "no"), so there's nothing unusual about using 全然 with it. I'd say the underlying implication of 全然 isn't so much negation as contradiction, hence its use in phrases like 全然大丈夫 with the nuance of "what are you talking about, it's totally fine".
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golyplot
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Re: Learning Japanese from zero by listening: 2021 Log

Postby golyplot » Thu Apr 15, 2021 5:08 am

Tonight, I watched Violet Evergarden ep2 (with English subs). There was one part which was very strange in English.

It went something like "Do you know what Doll means?" "It's an abbreviation for Auto Memory Doll, right? I figured it out yesterday."

In Japanese, the words are ドール and 自動手記人形, which are completely different, so it would make sense that someone might not understand where the term ドール comes from. But in the English version, that's barely even an "abbreviation", so it makes them all come across as braindead.

Also, @kelvin921019 recommended Bofuri to me. I read a bit about it, and it does sound like a fun series, but sadly it's not on Netflix in the US. Oh well.
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Re: Learning Japanese from zero by listening: 2021 Log

Postby golyplot » Thu Apr 15, 2021 2:46 pm

I watched Hanae's video playing Tom and Jerry Chase last night, and I found it interesting how they kept referring to Jerry as "nezumi". I guess Japanese doesn't make a distinction between rats and mice like English does.

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golyplot
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Re: Learning Japanese from zero by listening: 2021 Log

Postby golyplot » Thu Apr 15, 2021 3:19 pm

This morning, I tried watching a Youtube channel that @kelvin921019 recommended on his log.

I could only understand a little bit, but it was still pretty funny. I did frequently pause the video to try to look up words. I learned a new word - 踏切 (fumikiri), which uses a kanji reading I would have never guessed. I also learned 開かずの, which was difficult to look up. The best I could find on Jisho is that 開かずの might mean "forbidden". However it appears that 開かずの踏切 is actually a set phrase meaning a "railroad crossing that never opens up (due to having too many tracks, etc.)". It's pretty interesting that Japanese has a specific term for this phenomenon, since I've never heard of anything like that in English.

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golyplot
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Re: Learning Japanese from zero by listening: 2021 Log

Postby golyplot » Fri Apr 16, 2021 2:41 am

It's been ages since I touched Yotsubato, so time to tackle ch20!

お父さんじゃない
IT'S DAD, DUH...

I was puzzled since this seems like it means the opposite of what it should mean.

お父さんて
影うすいから
時々忘れちゃうね
DAD'S SO AVERAGE, I FORGET WHAT HE LOOKS LIKE SOMETIMES

This seems like it's literally saying something like "because his shadow is so thin". I guess it means "he doesn't make much of an impression". Also, I see "forget", I guess the "what he looks like" part comes from context?

お父さん
きのうあんなに
がんばったのにね子併たちは
AND AFTER ALL THE HARD WORK HE HAD
TO DO YESTERDAY
THESE NAUGHTY GIRLS

It seems like the Japanese is just "(these) kids". I guess the "naughty" part is also implied?
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golyplot
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Re: Learning Japanese from zero by listening: 2021 Log

Postby golyplot » Sat Apr 17, 2021 4:38 pm

In Violet Evergarden ep3, I found it a bit amusing when a character is yelling "Onichan!" and the subtitles say "Spencer!". I don't think her brother was even named in the Japanese dialog (though I may have just missed it). I wonder if the Japanese writers chose a name for her brother, or whether they had to make up a name for the English translation.


Youtsubato continued:~~

…こ…
こってるねぇ
...WOW. THIS IS INTENSE

肩たたき券
だけに
こってる
IN-TENSE! ALMOST AS TENSE AS DAD'S SHOULDERS!

Based on the translation, it seems like Fuuka made some sort of pun here, but my Japanese isn't good enough to get the joke. Can anyone explain this please?





花火大会ってのは
やるんじゃなくて
見るの

A FIREWORKS SHOW ISN'T SOMETHING YOU DO, IT'S SOMETHING YOU WATCH

IIRC, て is used to chain multiple verbs together, e.g. saying you're doing X and Y. So as far as I can tell, it means something like "(Don't do) and look". I found it very interesting that they were using a conjunction to express contrast, since you would never say something like that in English (as evidenced by the way the sentence structure is completely different in English)



前?
横でやった奴か?
BEFORE? YOU MEAN OUT IN THE STREET?

WK taught me that 横 means "side", which Jisho seems to confirm. I'm not sure how that turns into "out in the street". I guess it's supposed to mean something like "by the side of our house" here?

あれより全然
凄いぞ
YES, MUCH BETTER THAN THOSE

Here's another case where I was confused by zenzen seemingly having a positive meaning.


そーな!
はなびきれいもんな
YEAH!
'COS FIREWORKS ARE
PURDY!

Does anyone know why it was translated as "purdy" here?
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vonPeterhof
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Re: Learning Japanese from zero by listening: 2021 Log

Postby vonPeterhof » Sat Apr 17, 2021 6:01 pm

golyplot wrote:…こ…
こってるねぇ
...WOW. THIS IS INTENSE

肩たたき券
だけに
こってる
IN-TENSE! ALMOST AS TENSE AS DAD'S SHOULDERS!

Based on the translation, it seems like Fuuka made some sort of pun here, but my Japanese isn't good enough to get the joke. Can anyone explain this please?

Basically it was playing on two meanings of the verb 凝る/凝っている, to be stiff (when talking about muscles) and to be elaborate. だけに as used here is basically a pun-specific structure linking the setup to the punchline


golyplot wrote:前?
横でやった奴か?
BEFORE? YOU MEAN OUT IN THE STREET?

WK taught me that 横 means "side", which Jisho seems to confirm. I'm not sure how that turns into "out in the street". I guess it's supposed to mean something like "by the side of our house" here?

I think 横 here is referring to the house next door, since they were playing with those fireworks in front of the Ayases' house.

golyplot wrote:そーな!
はなびきれいもんな
YEAH!
'COS FIREWORKS ARE
PURDY!

Does anyone know why it was translated as "purdy" here?

Probably no deep reason for it, just trying make the phrase sound sufficiently colloquial and/or childlike.
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Re: Learning Japanese from zero by listening: 2021 Log

Postby Sizen » Sun Apr 18, 2021 4:36 am

golyplot wrote:そーな!
はなびきれいもんな
YEAH!
'COS FIREWORKS ARE
PURDY!

Does anyone know why it was translated as "purdy" here?

Could be because of non-standard usage since you'd expect きれいだもん unless you were to parse きれい as an i-adjective.
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Re: Learning Japanese from zero by listening: 2021 Log

Postby golyplot » Sun Apr 18, 2021 3:32 pm

In Violet Evergarden ep5, I noticed that Princess Charlotte always said watakushi instead of watashi. Presumably that's an old fashioned and more formal version of watashi? I don't think I've seen it before, but I guess I haven't watched anything where it would have come up before either. I guess maybe the royalty in The Dragon Prince or Canon Busters might have been expected to say stuff like that.

Yesterday, I finished my 11th time through Noriko and started a new podcast, Kevinin Sleepy Japanese.

Also, this morning, I (re)watched the song U+I from K-On! with subtitles. I noticed that in the last line, Yui uses the imperative form towards her feelings. (思いよ届け). It's funny because all the grammar guides say that the imperative form is rude and rarely used, but it seems to come up pretty often in practice! I guess they just don't want Japanese learners to use it and offend people.




And now for more Yotsuba!

Man, Jumbo really needs to stop using Yotsuba to ask Asagi out. It's kind of pathetic and has a high risk of backfiring (like in the waterpark chapter where she invited everyone but Asagi).


えっと私と風香お姉ちゃんと
あさぎお姉ちゃんのお父さんです
AHEM! THIS IS ME, FUUKA-ONEECHAN'S AND ASAGI-ONEECHAN'S FATHER HE'S OUR DAD

I found it interesting that Ena listed out her sisters when introducing her dad to Yotsuba. You'd think that it would go without saying. I also found it interesting that the translator included the "oneechan"s here, since they usually leave that stuff out. Sadly, the translator doesn't seem to understand how English possessive pronouns work.


あさぎはなー
よつばになー
はなびくれたからなーはなびたいかいをなー
みせてあげるの
ASAGI GIVED YOTSUBA FIREWORKS......SO YOTSUBA WILL SHOW ASAGI THE FIREWORKS SHOW!

The translator strangely decided to literally translate the Japanese custom of using names instead of pronouns, leading to ungrammatical English. I wonder if there was a different translator for this chapter than the previous ones, because they definitely don't seem to have a strong grasp of English.


... so Yotsuba ends up inviting Ena and Miura instead while accidentally making Jumbo think that Asagi is coming. That actually went better than expected. I expected her to just get distracted and forget to invite anyone in the first place. The moral of the story is that if you want someone to do something, you should actually tell them why. If you don't explain your true goals, then they probably won't fulfill them.

It's hard to feel sorry for Jumbo though, since the romance seems kind of creepy to begin with due to Jumbo looking older than Asagi. Also, she already has a girlfriend! I suppose at least Fuuka didn't come - that romance is even creepier.
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vonPeterhof
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Re: Learning Japanese from zero by listening: 2021 Log

Postby vonPeterhof » Sun Apr 18, 2021 4:42 pm

golyplot wrote:In Violet Evergarden ep5, I noticed that Princess Charlotte always said watakushi instead of watashi. Presumably that's an old fashioned and more formal version of watashi? I don't think I've seen it before, but I guess I haven't watched anything where it would have come up before either. I guess maybe the royalty in The Dragon Prince or Canon Busters might have been expected to say stuff like that.

I wouldn't exactly call it "old fashioned" since it's very much normalized in the business world and other formal contexts. If anything I would expect fictional royalty to use some more exotic phrasing, but I guess it fits with the show's setting being inspired by post WW1 Europe instead of an era with heavier associations with fantasy and tales of chivalry.

golyplot wrote:Also, this morning, I (re)watched the song U+I from K-On! with subtitles. I noticed that in the last line, Yui uses the imperative form towards her feelings. (思いよ届け). It's funny because all the grammar guides say that the imperative form is rude and rarely used, but it seems to come up pretty often in practice! I guess they just don't want Japanese learners to use it and offend people.

I'd say the imperative is still used less commonly in Japanese than in most European languages - for example it's nowhere near as common in Japanese advertising slogans than in English ones (which probably explains why so many English advertising slogans by Japanese companies contain the word "let's"). But yeah, song lyrics are a bit of a world of their own when it comes to language usage: see also the near-universal pronunciation of 行く as ゆく instead of いく, the use of ぼく by female singers to refer to themselves as well as the use of きみ for addressing a person who is supposed to be close to the singer.

One thing I noticed about the use of the imperative only after I started working in Japanese is how normalized its use is in reported speech, when talking about things said by people from both inside and outside the organization. At first it was more than a little jarring to hear someone summarize a very polite and proper business letter from a counterpart as essentially "they said 'send us the documents until the end of the month or else'" :lol:
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