Lycopersicon - Persian, Arabic, Latin, Italian

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Maiwenn
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Re: Lycopersicon - Persian, Arabic, Latin, Italian

Postby Maiwenn » Mon Apr 12, 2021 4:14 pm

Congrats on all your amazing progress! I look forward to reading more about your experience with Kallimni and Egyptian Arabic! :)
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Full SC Arabic Reading: 4517 / 5000
Double SC French Reading: 7488 / 10000
Half SC German Reading: 402 / 2500
Arabic Output Writing: 17023 / 50000 Speaking: 614 / 3000

Corrections are always welcome. :)

Lycopersicon
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Re: Lycopersicon - Persian, Arabic, Latin, Italian

Postby Lycopersicon » Sat Apr 17, 2021 9:47 am

شكرا لك يا زميلة

So, I started working on Unit 4 of the first Kallimni Arabi book today and what's interesting is that don't really find that the dialect is that different from MSA :) I was expecting something much more disorienting, but no: everything does look quite familiar.

I like the book so far although the content looks a bit disorganized. There are no proper grammatical explanations, the rules are explained through examples. This is not a problem for me because I already know some MSA but I think that a beginner would have trouble understanding properly (a self-learner, at least) as everything is written in Arabic.

Otherwise, everything is still relatively basic. I've learnt greetings, introductions, numbers, how to tell the time, possessive suffixes and the idafa.

Regarding MSA, I've reached text 43 of Arabic Stories for Language Learners. Some of the last texts have been a bit more challenging vocabulary wise, but that's a good thing. I will probably re-read the whole book when I'm done with it. I've also found out that the author has uploaded a series of comprehension questions on the website of the publisher so I will try and do these as well.

I'm still doing of lot of copying, which might sound tedious but I like how it's helping with my handwriting :D . Handwriting is rather underapprareciated, if you ask me. I actually copied all of Michael Hillman's Persian Fiction Reader on ten years ago and it turned out that it was definitely one of the most important steps I ever took in my language journey as it allowed me to internalize a lot of vocabulary and syntax. There's something to be said about taking the time to write things down and read out loud what you have written. Could it be that slowing down can sometimes lead to faster progress :P Anyway, I also just feel so much better working with pen and paper, there is something therapeutic to the whole process.
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Lycopersicon
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Re: Lycopersicon - Persian, Arabic, Latin, Italian

Postby Lycopersicon » Wed Apr 28, 2021 10:47 am

So, I have finished my first reading of Arabic Stories for Language Learners, and I think this is also going to be the end of my scriptorium effort with Arabic.

As I said, the last texts were more challenging but the progression in terms of difficulty throughout the book was well balanced. I did recognize a lot of words which I already knew though, I suppose someone with no prior knowledge of another Middle-Eastern language would have face a much steeper learning curve.

One thing I noticed is that it's quite important to get used to the various forms words can take. Arabic morphology is actually not that complicated but the nature of the writing system can make it quite hard to recognize certain verbs in certain contexts.

I'm quite happy with the book though, I feel much more confident reading and listening now. I also think I should start working on trying to produce longer and more varied sentences.

Anyway, I have decided to take some rest for a few days before I embark on my second reading and answer the comprehension questions.

I have also reached unit 5 of the Kallimni Arabi.
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Lycopersicon
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Re: Lycopersicon - Persian, Arabic, Latin, Italian

Postby Lycopersicon » Fri Apr 30, 2021 12:45 pm

I’ve had a brief look at the comprehension questions on the companion website to Arabic Stories for Language Learners and I have to say that I’m quite tempted to adjust my plan a bit.

Instead of simply answering the questions, I’m thinking of using them as essay prompts. I mean, the questions look quite straightforward and while I’m certain that they would help a lot with digesting the new vocabulary, they are not going to stretch my abilities as much as I would like.

So, rather than just writing a couple of explanatory sentences, I propose that I try and blabber as much as I can on the stories. The longer, the better.

As far as method is concerned, I think it wouldn’t be a bad idea to write about 100 words in my notebook first. The notebook is an essential element because I won’t be able to look things up on the internet. This should allow me to work on developing a certain degree of spontaneity with the language. Then (and this is where, ideally, I would go a step further and try new things), the second part of my essay would be more like a traditional composition exercise, in the sense that I would practice using a diversity of collocations and synonyms with the help of online resources.

Ultimately, I would say that this is an attempt at starting to make myself at home as a beginner.

For reference, here is the short essay I have written for text 1. I have bolded the words I had to look up.

العمل خير من البطالة

مشكلة الرجل هي أنه يعاني‌ من الفقر فلا يستطيع شراء طعاما ليطعم أولاده. فقال البني محمد له إن عليه أن يذهب إلی الغابة ليجمع الحطب و حتی أعطاه فأسا. فاستطاع الرجل أن یجمع حزما من الحطب ثم باعها واشتری ثيابا وطعاما بثمنها. هكذا يمكننا القول إن العبرة من هذا الحكاية هي عدم فائدة الشكوة يعني ينبغي علی المرء ألا يقعد منتظرا الصدقة. فمن الضروري أن يكتسب كل شخص رزقه بنفسه. فكما قال النبي البطالة ليست ردّا مناسبا لحل المصائب أبدا. لذلك يجب علينا أن نتعلم كيف نصبح مستقلين وإلا لن نتقدم تقدما حقيقيا في الحياة.

وأما معنی هذا الحديث العميق هو مرتبط بموضوع التضامن و المساعدة الاجتماعية. فكما تعرف يا عزيزي القاري كان مسألة توزيع عادل الأموال بين الناس حساسا دائما عبر التاريخ وحدث أن يتسبب عدم مساواة في انحطاط بعض حضارات متطورة.

إن مطالعات المتخصصين في التاريخ الإقتصادي ألقت الضوء ‌علی إمكان بروز أزمة حيوية إذا تعرض مجتمع لتركيز الثروة بشكل متداوم و شديد.
فبرأيي الهدف من هذه القصة هو الدلالة‌ علی أن يهتم النبي محمد للإنصاف أكثر من الحكام الظالمين الآخرين الذين كانوا يحكمون أقوی إمبراطوريتين في ذلك الوقت و نتيجة لذلك يُری الخلافة الإسلامية كنظام نموذجي.


Quite interesting to see that the syntax turned out to be more of a headache. Preposition usage in particular hasn’t been very intuitive for me, and it’s a topic that I think is barely touched upon in grammar books! (although I should probably check in Haywood & Nahmad).

In terms of vocabulary I’ve shamelessly plugged in as much Perso-Arabic words as possible, which seems to work quite well (besides a few false friends likeمعضل and بحران).

The morphology hasn’t been posed much of a problem, but I should still pay attention to the passive (I had to look up the correct form for أری). I also need more practice with the dual.
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Hash
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Re: Lycopersicon - Persian, Arabic, Latin, Italian

Postby Hash » Sat May 01, 2021 1:48 pm

Lycopersicon wrote:For reference, here is the short essay I have written for text 1. I have bolded the words I had to look up.

العمل خير من البطالة

مشكلة الرجل هي أنه يعاني‌ من الفقر فلا يستطيع شراء طعاما ليطعم أولاده. فقال البني محمد له إن عليه أن يذهب إلی الغابة ليجمع الحطب و حتی أعطاه فأسا. فاستطاع الرجل أن یجمع حزما من الحطب ثم باعها واشتری ثيابا وطعاما بثمنها. هكذا يمكننا القول إن العبرة من هذا الحكاية هي عدم فائدة الشكوة يعني ينبغي علی المرء ألا يقعد منتظرا الصدقة. فمن الضروري أن يكتسب كل شخص رزقه بنفسه. فكما قال النبي البطالة ليست ردّا مناسبا لحل المصائب أبدا. لذلك يجب علينا أن نتعلم كيف نصبح مستقلين وإلا لن نتقدم تقدما حقيقيا في الحياة.

وأما معنی هذا الحديث العميق هو مرتبط بموضوع التضامن و المساعدة الاجتماعية. فكما تعرف يا عزيزي القاري كان مسألة توزيع عادل الأموال بين الناس حساسا دائما عبر التاريخ وحدث أن يتسبب عدم مساواة في انحطاط بعض حضارات متطورة.

إن مطالعات المتخصصين في التاريخ الإقتصادي ألقت الضوء ‌علی إمكان بروز أزمة حيوية إذا تعرض مجتمع لتركيز الثروة بشكل متداوم و شديد.
فبرأيي الهدف من هذه القصة هو الدلالة‌ علی أن يهتم النبي محمد للإنصاف أكثر من الحكام الظالمين الآخرين الذين كانوا يحكمون أقوی إمبراطوريتين في ذلك الوقت و نتيجة لذلك يُری الخلافة الإسلامية كنظام نموذجي.




How long have you been studying Arabic? Your use of the language is quite advanced.
Let me make some corrections:
شراء طعاما > شراء طعامٍ
الشكوة > الشكوى
ليست ردا مناسبا grammatically, this is correct, but stylistically, no one use رد in this context. You can replace it with تصرفا for example.
كان مسألة توزيع عادل الأموال > كانت مسألة التوزيع العادل للأموال
حساسا > حساسة
يتسبب عدم مساواة > يتسبب عدم المساواة
بعض حضارات متطورة > بعض الحضارات المتطورة
متداوم؟ not a word, maybe you mean دائم
الدلالة على أن يهتم > الدلالة على اهتمام
لإنصاف > بالإنصاف
يُرى الخلافة > تُرى الخلافة > يُنظر إلى الخلافة
Last edited by Hash on Sun May 02, 2021 9:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Lycopersicon
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Re: Lycopersicon - Persian, Arabic, Latin, Italian

Postby Lycopersicon » Sun May 02, 2021 1:18 pm

Thank you very much, your corrections have been enormously helpful!
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Lycopersicon
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Re: Lycopersicon - Persian, Arabic, Latin, Italian

Postby Lycopersicon » Mon May 10, 2021 10:16 am

As I mentioned above, I have taken a few days off Arabic. I just wanted to relax, breathe a little and... read more Persian poetry 8-)

I am very pleased to see all the progress I’ve been able to accomplish on this front in just one week. I’m roughly 80% through Haft Peykar. I’ve just finished the Tale of the Princess of China, so only one tale left. It’s a huge leap, as I had only read the 56 pages-long introduction in January. I feel that I’ve almost reached a point where I can sight-read the verses without too much difficulty.

This is really amazing because Nezami’s poetry is notoriously difficult to read as his verses are riddled with images and metaphors, and there are also lots of references to 12th century science. The hardest part so far was definitely the description of winter and fire in صفت بزم بهرام در زمستان و ساختن هفت گنبد (https://ganjoor.net/nezami/5ganj/7peykar/sh25/). Having to interpret a constant barrage of poetical analogies was incredibly challenging.

Fortunately, the edition I have contains copious notes by Hassan Vahid Dastgerdi, who was the most prominent Nezami expert. It’s very practical because all the difficult parts are paraphrased in regular Persian right below the main text. So, it feels a bit like working with a LLPSI textbook, minus the explanatory drawings in the margins :mrgreen: . It’s really fantastic and I have to say that the paraphrase has taught me a lot! I’ll definitely try to find more of these editions in the future. I had also read Michael Barry’s translation into French a few years ago so I was already quite familiar with the story. That, too, helped, of course.

Anyway, I’ve also read some Latin! I’m now about 70% through Ovid’s Ars Amatoria (the LLPSI reader - it doesn’t include the full work as I think a couple hundred verses have been left out). I had gotten sourly frustrated with the book this wintr because I couldn’t read it with the same ease as I can read Virgil. I wasn’t really sure what was slowing me down but now that I think about it, it could be that I simply need to get used to the structure of the elegiac couplets. I mean, it makes sense after all. I had mostly dealt with regular hexametric poetry up to now and I’m not really sure but I have the impression that with elegiac verses you get more ellipses and omissions as well as a terser style, maybe?

I’ll start reading Lucretius’ De Rerum Natura (again, the LLPSI reader) once I’m done with the Ars Amatoria. Only two books left and I’ll have completed the whole LLPSI syllabus ;)

As a bonus, here is a beautiful musical interpretation of the Haft Peykar. The music was composed by Faramarz Payvar, one of the greatest Iranian musicians of the last century (he was a santour master). Thise piece in particular is called رقص چینی, so I suppose that it was written to illustrate the tale of the Chinese princess. The whole album is really nice, I think it perfectly captures the spirit of Nezami's poetry.



King Bahram meets the Chinese princess in a sandal kiosk on a Thursday night. I've found a stunning Safavid era depiction of this passage:

https://asia.si.edu/object/F1908.276/
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