PM's 2021 Log - The Norwegian Resistance - Target 1000 hrs +++

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Deinonysus
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Re: PM's 2021 Log - The Norwegian Resistance - Target 1000 hrs +++

Postby Deinonysus » Sat Jan 02, 2021 5:34 pm

Gustav Aschenbach wrote:
PeterMollenburg wrote:
Gustav Aschenbach wrote:Ah, so you're saying that my above comment was unsolicited advice? Peter, do you agree?


It is unsolicited advice, in a way, yes.


Okay, sorry, will not happen again. I didn't know about the forum's fixation on giving you unsolicited advice. :lol:


The following is NOT advice, it's just my personal opinion:

Just Assimil is not enough IMO.


Enough for what would be the question. Of course it's not enough for "learning a language", no textbook and no series of textbooks ever is. My thinking was that when learning a relatively easy, closely related language with many cognates and a similar grammar (English and Norwegian for instance) Assimil plus another textbook with grammar explanations and drills is already a good basis to dive into "native material"., e.g. take a newspaper article and read it with the aid of a dictionary.

For a difficult language (e.g. Mandarin for native speakers of English) just finishing Assimil is absolutely not enough to start with "native materials".
I think I was unnecessarily brusque. I have just noticed a pattern where it seems like every time PM starts a new thread, he will say "these are the 20 beginner's resources I'm using" and people will come out of the woodwork and say "nooooo you can't do that!" But I shouldn't have singled you out, apologies for that. And of course my personal "fixation" does not represent a fixation of the entire forum.

My particular strong reaction to your suggestion of using one or two beginner's courses plus a grammar supplement and then diving into native materials is because that is more or less what I did with German, and as a result my German ability is very imbalanced. I completed Pimsleur and did about half of the German Duolingo tree and also used a German grammar book, and I stayed reading children's books and news articles very early. Because I had good resources for the active skills, I got very confident in conversational speech and simple writing. But because I didn't have a good resource like Assimil to train my receptive skills, I never got even to the level where I could comfortably read YA novels, and while I can get the gist of most news articles I will usually lack the vocabulary for a full understanding.

I imagine that someone who tried to learn a language with only Assimil and a grammar resource would have a similar problem to what I faced, but in the opposite direction. They would probably have good receptive skills but they would also have very limited speaking and writing skills, and poor speaking skills may cause spelling mistakes due to confusion of minimal pairs.
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Re: PM's 2021 Log - The Norwegian Resistance - Target 1000 hrs +++

Postby Gustav Aschenbach » Sat Jan 02, 2021 8:46 pm

Deinonysus wrote:I think I was unnecessarily brusque. I have just noticed a pattern where it seems like every time PM starts a new thread, he will say "these are the 20 beginner's resources I'm using" and people will come out of the woodwork and say "nooooo you can't do that!" But I shouldn't have singled you out, apologies for that. And of course my personal "fixation" does not represent a fixation of the entire forum.


No problem! I hadn‘t noticed this pattern and was indeed a bit surprised, but now I understand what you mean.

My particular strong reaction to your suggestion of using one or two beginner's courses plus a grammar supplement and then diving into native materials is because that is more or less what I did with German, and as a result my German ability is very imbalanced. [...]


To be honest, I see an imbalance of skills as something very natural and to be expected while acquiring a new language. My approach to deal with a lack of receptive skills for example would be to simply look up every word/expression I don‘t know (while reading "native materials") and to listen a lot. I‘m doing the same with Dutch at the moment, I have finished Assimil and I‘m reading Harry Potter now, but even though Dutch and German (my mother tongue) are extremely similar, I still encounter 10-20 words/expressions on every single page I don‘t (fully) understand. My guess is that after finishing the first volume of Harry Potter in this fashion there will already be much less words I don't understand when picking up the next volume (or another book). I don't regard the fact that I can't effortlessly read Harry Potter after having finished Assimil as a shortcoming of the latter, but as normal.

They would probably have good receptive skills but they would also have very limited speaking and writing skills, and poor speaking skills may cause spelling mistakes due to confusion of minimal pairs.


I think it also depends on how exactly you use a particular resource. For instance, Assimil can be used the traditional way (listening to the dialogue, then repeating every sentence, then doing the exercises), but also to make bidirectional translation and/or shadowing exercises. Professor Argüelles recommended shadowing every Assimil lesson ten times (or more, depending on the difficulty).
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Re: PM's 2021 Log - The Norwegian Resistance - Target 1000 hrs +++

Postby PeterMollenburg » Mon Jan 11, 2021 3:08 am

blackcoffee wrote:Hi Peter


Hey blackcoffee,

I decided to reply to your queries anyway, despite your investigative journalism uncovering some revelations...

btw, you know you're a language nerd when you read the above in your head "Hi Peter" and associate it with a conversation you have listened to several times in one of your Norwegian courses :?

blackcoffee wrote:I'm curious about how, given your approach and list of beginner courses, you decide what order to tackle them in and generally how you plan to sequence them.


My routine is constantly evolving and adapting. I was using Learn Norwegian, The Mystery of Nils, Hugo Norwegian in Three Months and Beginner's Norwegian in 1 hour block rotations (study 1 hour of one course move to the next). I decided on this order because I found Hugo and learn Norwegian particularly heavy while the other two a little lighter and so it seemed like a good order, but hey I might change it up again soon, who knows. Norwegian on the Web I've been scattering here and there while at work and in downtime but have only really just started with that one. I had decided to drop Assimil, despite it being my mainstay a month ago as I figured I had too many courses at once. Then I decided I was managing okay, so Assimli Le norvégien is back in the routine now, rotating with the others, but I'm so far not into new material with Assimil, I'm revising the first few lessons.

Given I also bring a course book or two to work most days as I'm finding it hard to complete 3 hours desk study every day at home and do find downtime sometimes at work, I've decided I'm just going to rotate all six courses (including NoW and Assimil) - the 'original four' with the other two just mentioned.

I think six is overkill, but it's doable when studying so much. Still, I will cut the number down as I start completing the courses. Well, that's what I say now.

blackcoffee wrote:Audio courses probably fit into different slots in your day,


Indeed, and hoping to purchase Pimsleur Norwegian Level 2 soon, as I have been through level 1 now perhaps 4 times roughly, but it's been good pronunciation and recall practice. Also using the Teach Yourself audio courses in the same time slots (commutes, other times when audio only courses work - shower, chores etc).

blackcoffee wrote:but for the dedicated study time that you have, what will you begin with and how will you know when it's time to start the next course?


I will introduce the next course as I finish one (all the way through). However, as mentioned above, I probably won't do this until I've cut down the number of courses I'm using simultaneously a little bit.

blackcoffee wrote:It doesn't sound efficient or appealing to me to finish one completely before starting another, but I also think it would be hard to work on too many at the same time. Maybe start with one and get either halfway through or a month in before starting the next? What features call out to you, "start with me!"?


I wanted to start with multiple courses because they all brought something different to the mix and I found that were I to study 2 or three hours in one go, doing only one course usually was a bit long of a stretch. With the 6 courses currently in use, I basically use 3 of them one day and three the next. It can actually be motivating to use 6 courses when targeting 3 hours desk study per day, given if I miss any of that study time, time between sessions with any given course becomes a little too long. One day off a course every 2nd day isn't so bad, in fact maybe it's good for recall.

blackcoffee wrote:Edited to add: I just read the December posts in your Norwegian Plandemic thread and see that you have largely answered these questions! I look forward to seeing how your plans evolve. :)


Cheers. For the record the course I'm enjoying the least at the moment is Hugo. Beginner's Norwegian is not that interesting for me either, but it's still okay. Hugo is also okay-ish, I mean I'm still learning from these courses. I find the copying out of the phonetics for the Learn Norwegian course is really useful and the Mystery of Nils is a bit 'prettier' and more pleasant. NoW seems to be well designed and as with Assimil, I'm finding myself doing a lot of translating - for Now from EN to NO as there are translations of the dialogues and for Assimil from NO to FR first and then from FR back to NO. NoW is also good for shadowing (as is Assimil) as it has a slower conversation speed setting.

On another note, I'm spending a lot of time getting the pronunciation correct. Like with French, I will not utter words (if I can avoid it) without knowing exactly how to pronounce them including stress and tone. I feel Norwegian is now much more familiar to me and not the alien language it was when I had just started out. Pronunciation seems relatively straight forward, but not predictable enough yet to assume pronunciation in terms of tone and stress of unknown words.

In my books I've taken to writing in in grey-lead pencil unknown words (even if it's just the pronunciation that's unfamiliar) at the top of pages, so I often review by flicking back through my books (instead of flash cards - I don't like them much at all at this stage) and looking at the tops of the pages to reinforce new vocabulary (as well as reviewing word lists, conversations and so on).
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Re: PM's 2021 Log - The Norwegian Resistance - Target 1000 hrs +++

Postby jeff_lindqvist » Mon Jan 11, 2021 11:22 am

PeterMollenburg wrote:I wanted to start with multiple courses because they all brought something different to the mix and I found that were I to study 2 or three hours in one go, doing only one course usually was a bit long of a stretch. With the 6 courses currently in use, I basically use 3 of them one day and three the next. It can actually be motivating to use 6 courses when targeting 3 hours desk study per day, given if I miss any of that study time, time between sessions with any given course becomes a little too long. One day off a course every 2nd day isn't so bad, in fact maybe it's good for recall.


You may have a point - even if all courses are for beginners, they aren't identical. Each course may in fact reinforce another. Some give you a leg up before next course (vocabulary, grammar concepts etc.), and some later ones will explain things more clearly than the first ones.

At the end of the day, only you can decide if you did the right thing.

Good luck!
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Re: PM's 2021 Log - The Norwegian Resistance - Target 1000 hrs +++

Postby Cavesa » Mon Jan 11, 2021 11:27 am

jeff_lindqvist wrote:
PeterMollenburg wrote:I wanted to start with multiple courses because they all brought something different to the mix and I found that were I to study 2 or three hours in one go, doing only one course usually was a bit long of a stretch. With the 6 courses currently in use, I basically use 3 of them one day and three the next. It can actually be motivating to use 6 courses when targeting 3 hours desk study per day, given if I miss any of that study time, time between sessions with any given course becomes a little too long. One day off a course every 2nd day isn't so bad, in fact maybe it's good for recall.


You may have a point - even if all courses are for beginners, they aren't identical. Each course may in fact reinforce another. Some give you a leg up before next course (vocabulary, grammar concepts etc.), and some later ones will explain things more clearly than the first ones.

At the end of the day, only you can decide if you did the right thing.

Good luck!


I agree and would also point at that more courses= more exercises. This may be less obvious as an asset, when it comes to languages with tons of extra resources, extra workbooks, extra practice websites, and so on. But in a language like Norwegian (and many others), there may be no other way to get extra exercises, than to buy normal coursebooks.

Plus it is absolutely true that several courses can complement each other well. And in a language with lack of graded readers, they fulfill this function for a beginner too.
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Re: PM's 2021 Log - The Norwegian Resistance - Target 1000 hrs +++

Postby jeff_lindqvist » Mon Jan 11, 2021 11:34 am

Cavesa wrote:I agree and would also point at that more courses= more exercises. This may be less obvious as an asset, when it comes to languages with tons of extra resources, extra workbooks, extra practice websites, and so on. But in a language like Norwegian (and many others), there may be no other way to get extra exercises, than to buy normal coursebooks.


Indeed, you're right! We've all been in the situation where not everything has been crystal clear, or if it has, maybe we needed just a handful more exercises. (For those who hate explicit grammar study, one can even use them as a mass sentence method, reading aloud, SRS and the list goes on...)
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Re: PM's 2021 Log - The Norwegian Resistance - Target 1000 hrs +++

Postby PeterMollenburg » Thu Jan 14, 2021 2:41 am

Well, I've fallen.... from grace :shock:

I, the creator of the 365 Day Challenge, missed a day of study yesterday :o

In fact, my desk study has fallen off a little. However, all is not lost, I remain with an average over 3 hours/day of Norwegian learning, so I'm okay ;)

It was around 11pm last night. I had a thumping headache and had lacked sufficient sleep for several days in a row, and it was all of my own doing (not because of busy Norwegian studies) as I have a nasty habit in recent years of fighting tiredness. I could've listened to Norwegian things in the car yesterday during a long drive, but chose not to. I feel the global political situation is critical currently and I've discovered an alternative information source that I'm spending considerable time listening to most days. It's the most English I've listened to in over half a decade, but it's critically important I feel. If it existed in French, Dutch, or Norwegian I'd most certainly be listening to that instead (or as well in the case of my NL and NO not being strong enough).

I attempted to just watch something in NO for 30 minutes last night before sleep just to make things as easy as possible. I'd last literally 2 minutes and catch myself falling asleep. This occurred several times until I decided, you know what, I just need to sleep. No-one is going to die if I don't study today/tonight. And that's how I missed a day.

And yet, I feel liberated. Now I'm going to approach my study with my health coming first, but with every intention of course of studying a considerable amount every day, just as before with all the courses mentioned. I'm still aiming for 1000 hours of Norwegian this year, but I'll be doing it sensibly and if I don't make it, I don't care! :?
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Re: PM's 2021 Log - The Norwegian Resistance - Target 1000 hrs +++

Postby rdearman » Thu Jan 14, 2021 11:37 am

I'll be doing it sensibly and if I don't make it, I don't care!


Hummm... I think Peters account may have been hacked into...
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Re: PM's 2021 Log - The Norwegian Resistance - Target 1000 hrs +++

Postby PeterMollenburg » Fri Jan 15, 2021 3:40 am

Gustav Aschenbach wrote:
PeterMollenburg wrote:
Gustav Aschenbach wrote:Ah, so you're saying that my above comment was unsolicited advice? Peter, do you agree?


It is unsolicited advice, in a way, yes.


Okay, sorry, will not happen again. I didn't know about the forum's fixation on giving you unsolicited advice. :lol:


Hi Gustav Aschenbach,

I've been meaning to reply to you for some time now. Anyway, here it is. I feel like you might have misinterpreted or found me to be a little harsh. I never meant to be and I respect your input and comments with regards to my learning. Below you will see that I have highlighted that despite not asking for your advice, it is welcome ;)

Gustav Aschenbach wrote:
Gustav Aschenbach wrote:
Deinonysus wrote:The way PM is choosing to study is not exactly the way I would do it, but he has not asked for my opinion and I will not be indulging in LLORG's favorite pastime, the "give PM unsolicited advice" game.


Ah, so you're saying that my above comment was unsolicited advice? Peter, do you agree?


It is unsolicited advice, in a way, yes. But it is welcome and as Cavesa indicates, the logs allow for advice from others. It is through exchanging ideas and opinions on this forum that we learn how others learn, how we might improve on things etc.
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Re: PM's 2021 Log - The Norwegian Resistance - Target 1000 hrs +++

Postby PeterMollenburg » Fri Jan 15, 2021 3:44 am

And I've made a full recovery from my missed day of study. Yesterday a little over 3 hours study (3 hours 'desk study' included), today, so far 4 hours - all desk study.... Now, how to skip my sleep altogether and learn another 10 languages in the next 6 months... :?
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