I think the question of determining native English speakers is greatly complicated by both the breadth of different English accents, as well as the prevalence of immigrants means that there is a wide range in language which is considered acceptable (and this also differs from place to place).
Anyway, as far as my personal experience goes, I've met many people who I later found out to be immigrants, but who did not have accents which immediately pegged them as foreign. There's basically no way to tell except for the most obvious cases.
As a random anecdote, I just thought of two people I know, one with an obvious accent and one with no detectable accent. The former is from Australia, and hence a native speaker of English, while the other was born in France and moved to the US as a child.
What techniques do you use to improve TL pronunciation / accent?
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Re: What techniques do you use to improve TL pronunciation / accent?
The words "immortality" and "continuity" sounded the most German in his first couple lines, but if someone just played me his speech without saying "this is a German guy" I might not have been looking for it.
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- reineke
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Re: What techniques do you use to improve TL pronunciation / accent?
CompImp wrote:David1917 wrote:You said that one might need to put in "much, much more time" than others, and then called talent an excuse?
People use a lack of talent as an excuse for giving up, is what i meant. People, instead of putting in the hard hours, will simply dismiss their lack of results as being 'untalented'. They are just excuses for not putting in time.
In that case, lack of talent is just an excuse for not wanting to put in the extra time it will take them to achieve what someone more talented achieves quicker.
There is no 'i can't do X' when it comes to acquiring a good level of language. Everybody can learn to understand any language. For some it will take them 1000 hours. Their mate might take 10000. But instead of putting in 10000, they see their lack of results after 1000 and give up, citing being unable. It's not the case.
Some pronunciation-related threads
When to reduce the accent
https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 14&t=10022
Pronunciation - it's a delicate skill
https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... =14&t=6659
Does early speaking lead to fossilized mistakes?
https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... =14&t=5689
Tackling persistent mistakes / fossilisation
https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... =14&t=1026
How much does accent improve over time?
https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... =14&t=3059
Is pronunciation a function of intelligence?
https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... =14&t=4930
Aren't Pronunciation and Listening connected?
https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... =14&t=5853
The Critical Period, from the "other side"
https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... =14&t=2134
Proven ways to get a native-like accent
https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 182#p25877
Last edited by reineke on Wed Feb 06, 2019 6:14 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: What techniques do you use to improve TL pronunciation / accent?
Kraut wrote:Thomas Kielinger is a regular guest on BBC news shows. I have always thought that his English is really excellent. How close is he to perfection? Can natives still detect that he is foreign? German?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ea3bjp18c28
Very close to perfection. Could certainly pass as a native speaker over the course of a short conversation.
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Re: What techniques do you use to improve TL pronunciation / accent?
Do you think sounding like you’re mocking a language or an accent is a necessary stage before you get good at it? I suspect it is. At least for me. I get very nervous and just take my voice too seriously most of the time, so I like to make accents a fun thing. I’d rather sound like I’m mocking an accent than get too much interference from English or Spanish.
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Re: What techniques do you use to improve TL pronunciation / accent?
sporedandroid wrote:Do you think sounding like you’re mocking a language or an accent is a necessary stage before you get good at it? I suspect it is. At least for me. I get very nervous and just take my voice too seriously most of the time, so I like to make accents a fun thing. I’d rather sound like I’m mocking an accent than get too much interference from English or Spanish.
Maybe exaggerating rather than mocking?
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Re: What techniques do you use to improve TL pronunciation / accent?
Adrianslont wrote:sporedandroid wrote:Do you think sounding like you’re mocking a language or an accent is a necessary stage before you get good at it? I suspect it is. At least for me. I get very nervous and just take my voice too seriously most of the time, so I like to make accents a fun thing. I’d rather sound like I’m mocking an accent than get too much interference from English or Spanish.
Maybe exaggerating rather than mocking?
This is an idea I hear quite often. Some say that one obstacle to acquiring a good accent is that trying to sound like a native can feel like mocking or exaggerating and so learners feel self-conscious about it, when in reality it's a question of perception and (again assuming an adequately accurate mental model of the language's sounds) more "exaggerated" just means closer to the target. That said, I also wonder if aiming for a stereotypical and exaggerated accent like RP British or strong South Italian could help get closer to a more standard one, in a "shoot for the stars to reach the moon" kind of way... Purely speculating here since personally I can't reproduce anything remotely native-like or stereotype-like even with exaggeration and when I try to exaggerate I just over-enunciate.
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Re: What techniques do you use to improve TL pronunciation / accent?
garyb wrote:Adrianslont wrote:sporedandroid wrote:Do you think sounding like you’re mocking a language or an accent is a necessary stage before you get good at it? I suspect it is. At least for me. I get very nervous and just take my voice too seriously most of the time, so I like to make accents a fun thing. I’d rather sound like I’m mocking an accent than get too much interference from English or Spanish.
Maybe exaggerating rather than mocking?
This is an idea I hear quite often. Some say that one obstacle to acquiring a good accent is that trying to sound like a native can feel like mocking or exaggerating and so learners feel self-conscious about it, when in reality it's a question of perception and (again assuming an adequately accurate mental model of the language's sounds) more "exaggerated" just means closer to the target. That said, I also wonder if aiming for a stereotypical and exaggerated accent like RP British or strong South Italian could help get closer to a more standard one, in a "shoot for the stars to reach the moon" kind of way... Purely speculating here since personally I can't reproduce anything remotely native-like or stereotype-like even with exaggeration and when I try to exaggerate I just over-enunciate.
I think I understand your second sentence correctly - it’s more about having correct perception and being able to reproduce that? And that feeling like you are exaggerating can be negative, counterproductive? Make some learners feel uncomfortable? It that’s what you mean, I agree.
My pronunciation is not great either, though seems to be slowly improving with work over recent months.
I was just taken aback by the suggestion of “mocking”. Too much negative connotation in that word for me. What if a native speaker thought I was actually mocking them - not just trying to speak better. Exaggerating seemed a preferable strategy. But as you say (I think) maybe it’s best just to strive for accuracy.
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Re: What techniques do you use to improve TL pronunciation / accent?
sporedandroid wrote:Do you think sounding like you’re mocking a language or an accent is a necessary stage before you get good at it? I suspect it is. At least for me. I get very nervous and just take my voice too seriously most of the time, so I like to make accents a fun thing. I’d rather sound like I’m mocking an accent than get too much interference from English or Spanish.
Nope. You won't sound like you're mocking the accent -- you'll sound like you're trying to speak with it.
While it's natural that the speaker might be self-conscious and worry that they sound mocking and insincere, that's not what the listener will hear.
Honestly, at an early stage your accent is going to be far enough from theirs that they won't notice any attempt at mimicry, but the closer you get, the easier it will be for them to understand you.
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Re: What techniques do you use to improve TL pronunciation / accent?
Pronunciation is 80% listening, 60% practice, and 40% dissatisfaction. And yes, that adds up to 200% because it’s extra effort.
Like all things language related it depends on where you are coming from, your language background, your “talent” and your goals and attitudes. To improve accent it’s likely one will need specific effort to identify issues and clarify.
My mom always had difficulties with shit and sheet. It’s common for Spanish speakers learning English. We had a joke at home “mom, what do you put on beds?” Having identified an issue, she could have fixed this by spending a few hours of practice. But it was something she was concerned with, she never worked on accent beyond basic comprehension.
For French a lot of material exists and I worked on massive listening to radio broadcasts, poem recordings and just people talking. I constantly tried to re-vocalize what I heard and repeated words like deuil, seuil, rouille, etc. Lots of lyrical and classic songs - some from famous Belgians ... but really the material is there from Brel to Apollinaire to Fauve. It’s hours of listening and correcting, especially useful to have someone to help out with specific issues when you can’t hear minor items. It’s working on rhythm and meter of the language.
For German, I’m now trying to break out of the influence of other languages - my cadence here and pronunciation is sufficiently bad that I recognize I need to work on it. I’m struggling to figure out new tools - I’m trying out minimal pairs ...
Like all things language related it depends on where you are coming from, your language background, your “talent” and your goals and attitudes. To improve accent it’s likely one will need specific effort to identify issues and clarify.
My mom always had difficulties with shit and sheet. It’s common for Spanish speakers learning English. We had a joke at home “mom, what do you put on beds?” Having identified an issue, she could have fixed this by spending a few hours of practice. But it was something she was concerned with, she never worked on accent beyond basic comprehension.
For French a lot of material exists and I worked on massive listening to radio broadcasts, poem recordings and just people talking. I constantly tried to re-vocalize what I heard and repeated words like deuil, seuil, rouille, etc. Lots of lyrical and classic songs - some from famous Belgians ... but really the material is there from Brel to Apollinaire to Fauve. It’s hours of listening and correcting, especially useful to have someone to help out with specific issues when you can’t hear minor items. It’s working on rhythm and meter of the language.
For German, I’m now trying to break out of the influence of other languages - my cadence here and pronunciation is sufficiently bad that I recognize I need to work on it. I’m struggling to figure out new tools - I’m trying out minimal pairs ...
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