I want to build an app. What do you think?

[eido]

...

[rdearman]

I think you should watch Zenmonkeys presentation at the last polyglot conferece titled "So you want to write a language app".

[Speakeasy]

Okay, your heart is in the right place. So then, …

Alternative 1 – Develop an App
Estimate the total population of possible users of your app.
Estimate how many of the possible users of your app. have a cell-phone.
Estimate how many would prefer to use your app.
Estimate how many would prefer to learn English.
Estimate the time required to develop, test, deploy, modify, redeploy and maintain your app.
Estimate the success rate.

Alternative 2 – Volunteer ESL Teacher
Join a volunteer ESL group.
Inquire as to the time required to become competent as a volunteer ESL teacher (they’ll assign you a class following a three-hour orientation session … this is the “long” course).
Teach your assigned group the rudiments of English, including the basics required for their jobs.
Allocate as much time to this activity as you would have to developing an app.
Estimate the success rate.

Keep your heart right where it is and select an alternative.

EDITED:
Tinkering.

[eido]

I think you should watch Zenmonkeys presentation at the last polyglot conference titled "So you want to write a language app".

Without watching it, I can see the title, and I see that it's the same old trap I always seem to fall into. If you can't do it, then why want to? But I'll watch it and feel bad about myself.

I guess I just have to learn to code, as difficult as it is. I think it's (they're) probably harder than any human language, or maybe that's just the perceived difficulty.

Okay, your heart is in the right place. So then, …

Difficult choices. There's ESL or ELL services in my local library district, but they always meet on Saturdays at 10 am, right when I start work.

I've thought of starting a Spanish conversation group through Meetup to meet on Saturdays at 6 pm, but I don't imagine there'd be much interest in that. My work schedule is weird.

And yeah, my "heart is in the right place", but my brain isn't.

[Speakeasy]

... And yeah, my "heart is in the right place", but my brain isn't.

Then you'll have a full, rewarding life!

[eido]

Then you'll have a full, good life!

Ah, but I want a brain that is logical and analytical like a computer. If it was, I'd already have the means to build an app because the code would be built in me and I'd be an AI.

[zenmonkey]

I think you should watch Zenmonkeys presentation at the last polyglot conference titled "So you want to write a language app".

Without watching it, I can see the title, and I see that it's the same old trap I always seem to fall into. If you can't do it, then why want to? But I'll watch it and feel bad about myself.

I guess I just have to learn to code, as difficult as it is. I think it's (they're) probably harder than any human language, or maybe that's just the perceived difficulty.

The idea wasn't to discourage people but to discuss among other things, that certain type of thinking is counter productive - one needs to understand what is possible and what is not with an app.

We can do the exercise of first level design here, if you like?

Sticking to Spanish - what would a lesson with your app fee like? What are the first 5 minutes of learning like?

(I design most of my apps initially with stock paper flashcards. I draw a rough screen on one side take notes on the other... do a mock up, repeat. I'll post some pictures tomorrow.) You may need to learn to code, or you may need to pay someone to code.

[zenmonkey]

I guess I just have to learn to code, as difficult as it is. I think it's (they're) probably harder than any human language, or maybe that's just the perceived difficulty.

Depends on the language. I recommend Python or if you have a teacher, Java. Use this before you start spending money trying to learn so you can see if you actually like coding.

Umm, not for apps. Really should be Swift or Kotlin. And one can learn for free (well, and time).

[eido]

We can do the exercise of first level design here, if you like?

Sticking to Spanish - what would a lesson with your app fee like? What are the first 5 minutes of learning like?

I had some idea of what kind of learning methods I'd like to use, but not a concrete plan of what it'd look like. I appreciate the offer.

I'll think (or write) out loud.

I like Lingodeer's method of presenting Asian languages. From what I remember (I last used this app over a month ago, but used it continuously for two or three weeks before then), they present vocabulary in a similar manner to Duolingo. You tap the word to get the definition or meaning, even at the most basic level. Then it builds on your knowledge from there. It's basically an interactive Assimil or Linguaphone - a glossary with a monolingual text.

Ideally I'd want it to work a bit different than this. What I notice most courses don't have is holistic learning and repeating of vocabulary terms. The way I learned Spanish was hearing the words a lot coupled with their definition and writing sentences that were as close to correct as possible. It got to the point I didn't even need to memorize at all.

However, I don't want to be of the camp that you don't need to memorize to learn. You do until you get the hang of the language and are dedicated to seeking out sources where the words are repeated so you get exposure. Now, I know I said I want to repeat vocabulary. Ideally the app would do some of this, but it would make you work for the words so you memorized it on your own merits.

The only way I could think to do this would be with a lot of sentence creation, using probably typing instead of click-and-drag, and perhaps autoplay audio that could be toggled on and off. You would get introduced to a neutral Spanish and after completing the basics in this "sterile" or standard dialect, you'd get to "major" in a dialect of your choice, learning more specific words if you deal with kids from say, Argentina or a coworker from Spain.

But first we'd start with pronunciation, and trying to weed out those persistent gringo accents (if we're coming from the standard American base). So, we'd teach the alphabet, but make it a competition by having people try to pronounce it the best, having native speakers rate how they do it, and have a practical application for using these basic building blocks. Like, say you just got a six year-old student from Uruguay who can't speak English very well. You're at their bus stop, but their parents haven't come to pick them up (they're too young to walk home). You don't know how to spell Ximena from how she's pronounced it (at this point you know how to ask her name). Does it start with a J or an X? So you ask her how to spell her name. But there's another Ximena on the same bus - uh oh. So you ask her what her last name is. Bentancor. Then you find her name on the bus roster and radio the dispatchers so they can call her parents. Ideally this'd be interactive with videos or audio, with different paths if you get the questions wrong to make you feel your choices matter. And hopefully there's different exercises or adventures for different roles in the school. If you're feeling adventurous, you could cross-train with different roles before you advance to higher learning.

I don't know. I don't think it's good, but eh. I tried.

[zenmonkey]

I don't know. I don't think it's good, but eh. I tried.

It is good, that's a great description. It's exactly how design work should go. In design thinking (before it became the next great thing and a buzz word) we go and gather user stories, which is what you have provided above. Usually, by gathering a few, one can develop a profile, user requirements, process steps ... etc and from there come up with functional needs, design ideas, etc that then make it (or not) into a product.

For example I'll take up two things you mentioned. I'm not criticising these at all, I'd agree but would want to dive in and ask more questions.

1) begin with pronunciation - teach the alphabet. These aren't exactly the same thing - one is the way the language sounds and the other other is how it is represented in the written form. If your audience already knows written English is teaching the alphabet really a focus? Or are we talking about teaching the association of certain written clusters into sound Ximena, Eugenio, Julio, Carmelita xumo, judo, hotel are all representations that Americans would fail to pronounce correctly without instruction. Would it be working on that or more on A, B, C for people that really can't read in Spanish?

2) Having native speakers rate the pronunciation. That would be ideal but is it realistic within an app? it requires getting those speakers, making them available, hosting recordings, etc... so we would add a web sever, web site, etc... Pretty soon that is a big project. Or is there another way of doing this? What is important here, it seems, is that the user get quick feedback on pronunciation? How can we do this with live or automated ways ... (it's something I've been thinking about in another project).

So from these, you can begin to think about a look and feel for this initial part. Still interested? Draw yourself a quick screen of the pronunciation screen as you think it should be -- is it like an Anki card? What does it include...

Now, in terms of a project. Early on you need to ask yourself, "Am I really interested in learning to code?" If yes, great, there are steps for that. If just maybe or not really, or only if I have to - great, then there are ways of learning a bit, creating mock ups and seeing how that might evolve either way and finally, if you are in the camp, no way, no interested in coding - well... that's great too because you can then decide to focus on designing your requirements, other business aspects and finding someone who will do the actual development. And you can change from one camp to the other - but it usually means you've wasted some effort - but it's important to place oneself early on to decide what steps come next in the design process - someone who is doing their own coding needs less formalism in design versus someone who is going to communicate a design to a someone else who is going to execute it.