Grammar-Translation, Translation Drills, Assimil Active Wave, Back-Translation, and Bruce Lee

[StringerBell]

Very interesting. I didn't read Luca's book, but I would be interested in hearing about his ideas more in depth. I don't think he's quite clear in his YouTube videos

I have a few more chapters to read, when I'm done then maybe I can try to explain a little bit about what I understood from his strategy (hopefully that's allowed). I agree with what you said about the YT videos; I, too, always had the sense they were a bit vague. So far I'm not finding that the book really delves into as many details as I was expecting.

However, speaking of the difference between procedural and declarative memory: I absolutely agree that using your procedural memory is good for you. However, doesn't translating and back-translating sentences rely on declarative memory, i.e. conciously searching for words and consciously applying rules? On the other side, isn't speaking, repeating, and reciting sentences from memory as advocated by Alphonse Chérel something that relies on, and fosters, procedural memory (i.e. knowing how to do something, but not necessarily why)? So maybe Luca advocates in fact memorization (although calling it bi-directional translation)? I would very much like to know more about this subject.

I share your "confusion" about whether he's really talking about memorization vs. translation. What I know is that he seems to be a big fan of Assimil; it's his go-to resource when starting a new language. He says that he focuses on bi-directional translation in the early stages of language learning (the first few months) and doesn't have a language partner/tutor during this time. I don't get the impression that he's attempting to memorize and regurgitate sentences, though. Procedural memory does involve declarative memory, but they are not the same thing. Procedural memory is more about activating your declarative memory. I'm probably not explaining this very well, so I'm making it seem more confusing than it needs to be.

He seems to be talking about genuine translation; First, he translates from L2 to L1, then using his end result in L1, he attempts to translate it back to L2. I assume he compares his end product (in L2) against what he started with from Assimil.

The part that I find confusing is that without a native speaker / someone who is proficient in the L2, how can you know if your translation into the L2 makes sense? The tricky thing about language is that there are a seemingly infinite number of ways to say one thing, but only certain ways are "correct" or "make sense". You have to first master the language before knowing which of those many options work.

However, I do think there is a lot of value in translation early on; it forces your brain to apply what you know in novel ways. However, I think it's crucial to have someone knowledgeable about the language check what you've done and make any necessary corrections. Maybe he doesn't think this is important early on? This is what I'm still confused about.

I also don't understand why doing translation early on would be different than attempting to have a conversation early on using whatever vocabulary you have at your disposal. Isn't this really accomplishing the same thing, if we're talking about activating procedural memory?

[David1917]

Possibly, what you are doing (minus the shadowing part) comes closest to what Chérel actually had in mind.

I adapted the idea from Prof A, he sort of discusses this in the Perfectionnement Russe video on youtube. The one difference is I think he does the writing as a separate exercise entirely. Like he started at Lesson 1 at some point and just did 15 minute bouts of Scriptorium. In my experience with that book, 15 minutes is hardly enough time to complete a full lesson in this manner. He was at Lesson 70 for shadowing but the writing was some lesson in the 20's I believe, but not either of the multiples of 7 - 21/28.

But anyway, yes, the Assimil courses always mention reviewing previous lessons but give no guidelines for doing so. I think the final lesson of Russian Without Toil says to just randomly put dialogues on and listen to them. That is all too willy-nilly for me because I would feel a constant sense of terror that some lessons were getting reviewed more than others. Thus the daily numbering system of lessons prevails for my use.

[David1917]

The part that I find confusing is that without a native speaker / someone who is proficient in the L2, how can you know if your translation into the L2 makes sense? The tricky thing about language is that there are a seemingly infinite number of ways to say one thing, but only certain ways are "correct" or "make sense". You have to first master the language before knowing which of those many options work.

I also don't understand why doing translation early on would be different than attempting to have a conversation early on using whatever vocabulary you have at your disposal. Isn't this really accomplishing the same thing, if we're talking about activating procedural memory?

I use it as a moment for reflection/questioning. If my guess at a translation is X but the book says Y, I'll usually have an "a-ha moment," especially if it's one of the lines with a corresponding note. It is difficult to be objective with yourself, but hopefully by Lesson 50 or beyond you have some grasp of things. If you're asked to translate "My name is Peter" and you say "ich heisse Peter" but the translation says "mein Name ist Peter" - you're still correct. If you said "meine Name Peter ist" then you'd hopefully have a learning moment in the process. I don't think the translation exercise is meant to guarantee a reproduction of the text in one shot, it's an informal quiz and review. You learn the most when you make mistakes, not when you're right.

[smallwhite]

> The part that I find confusing is that without a native speaker / someone who is proficient in the L2, how can you know if your translation into the L2 makes sense? The tricky thing about language is that there are a seemingly infinite number of ways to say one thing, but only certain ways are "correct" or "make sense". You have to first master the language before knowing which of those many options work.

How to handle synonyms. I can’t speak for Luca but when I translate L2->L1 for later translating L1->L2 for example for flashcards, I write the L1 in a way that lets me arrive at the original L2 later. I phrase it so or I include hints.

Bonjour -> “Good day”
which is a literal translation, rather than “Hello” which in French could be Salut or something else

“How are you? (vous)”
“How are you? (usted)”
“How are you? (formal you)”

etc. I aim at answering with the exact L2 I started with or else I might as well be doing free talking instead, and I want to practise all the different variations/synonyms rather than just my go-to synonym every time, so if I’m not answering the original L2 my answer is considered wrong.

But anyway, at A1 you don’t know that many variations and at B2 you’d know if your variation is correct or not. Probably half of my study time involves translating L1->L2 and I don’t find variations/alternatives a significant problem.

[StringerBell]

I don’t find variations/alternatives a significant problem.

For very simple things, I absolutely agree that alternatives are either not a big deal or pretty obvious if they're wrong.

What I'm currently having a bit of a problem with is translating more complex sentences into Polish where the word order can make sense in multiple ways due to the fact there is a case system. Though several variations are considered correct, sometimes certain variations are unnatural or just sound weird. I have no way to evaluate when a particular variation is unnatural.

I'm not saying that translation isn't useful; in fact, I probably should be doing more of it. I'm just not sure what is the best way to deal with evaluating what I produce.

[aaleks]

Though several variations are considered correct, sometimes certain variations are unnatural or just sound weird. I have no way to evaluate when a particular variation is unnatural.

You can google such a phrase and see how many hits it gets if at all.

p.s. I have never used any translation/drills/back-translation/etc methods myself though.

[smallwhite]

I don’t find variations/alternatives a significant problem.

For very simple things, I absolutely agree that alternatives are either not a big deal or pretty obvious if they're wrong.

What I'm currently having a bit of a problem with is translating more complex sentences into Polish where the word order can make sense in multiple ways due to the fact there is a case system. Though several variations are considered correct, sometimes certain variations are unnatural or just sound weird. I have no way to evaluate when a particular variation is unnatural.

I phrase my L1 question and/or add hints such that I’d get the original L2 as the answer. The L1 (actually English) is not necessarily idiomatic or good English.

> sometimes certain variations are unnatural or just sound weird

You are probably studying things way above your level if you keep coming up with unnatural and weird-sounding answers even when you’ve seen the correct version recently and have studied and translated it.

[StringerBell]

You are probably studying things way above your level if you keep coming up with unnatural and weird-sounding answers even when you’ve seen the correct version recently and have studied and translated it.

I'm not saying that I keep coming up with unnatural and weird-sounding answers; I'm just saying that when I come up with a translation where the word order is slightly different than what I wrote on the card, I'm never really sure if it's an acceptable word order (probably most of the time it is). I also might substitute a synonym for some words which most of the time is probably fine, but occasionally might not make sense because certain synonyms might only work in certain situations.

Here's an example:

My prompt is this sentence:
-I couldn't stop thinking about it.

Sentence on the card translated in Polish:
(#1) -Nie mogłam przestać o tym myśleć. (literally: I couldn't stop about it to think.)

Let's say my response is to say it like this:
(#2) -Nie mogłam przestać myśleć o tym. (literally: I couldn't stop to think about it.)

*I'm pretty sure I've seen sentences with the word order in #2. This word order is closest to English, so this tends to be my default translation, but it's possible that the word order in #1 is really the better choice because it's more commonly said that way. I struggle to decide how close my translation needs to be, especially where word order is concerned. I would not say this is above my level at all, since I can very easy read this sentence without having to spend any time or energy trying to decode it.

When possible, I do translate into L1 as close as possible from L2, but often I can't retain the word order because in English the word order is critical for meaning. In the example above, I wouldn't want to write "I couldn't stop about it to think" as my prompt because that is a nonsense sentence in English that doesn't preserve the meaning of what I want to translate.

[SGP]

Let's say my response is to say it like this:
(#2) -Nie mogłam przestać myśleć o tym. (literally: I couldn't stop to think about it.)

*I'm pretty sure I've seen sentences with the word order in #2. This word order is closest to English, so this tends to be my default translation, but it's possible that the word order in #1 is really the better choice because it's more commonly said that way. I struggle to decide how close my translation needs to be, especially where word order is concerned. I would not say this is above my level at all, since I can very easy read this sentence without having to spend any time or energy trying to decode it.

After having read the word order conversation for a while, maybe there is something me/I, too, could add [*]. Wouldn't it be possible to first think of what would be the best answer, and then consult an (even external) source like a grammar book before writing it down?

[*] Side-note: Preferably I too or me too in this case? Not the easiest question. If anyone would like to comment on it, they could do so in the "everything else" language log.

[smallwhite]

> I'm not saying that I keep coming up with unnatural and weird-sounding answers

Indeed. You said you come up with answers that are beyond you as to their naturalness. They could be natural and they could be unnatural. So much so it is causing you problems. All this when you had studied the original L2 sentence earlier. To me you are working beyond your level.

> Here's an example:

I would phrase the L1/English question or add hints so that I’d get the exact known-to-be correct answer that I meant to answer. Something like your translation with the purple font.

> I struggle to decide how close my translation needs to be

Things are very simple for me. The original L2 sentence is my correct answer. I’m trying to practise this version of it, not its many variations. When I’m practising “How are you” I don’t practise “How do you do”.