How to learn with dialogues?

[iguanamon]

Actually, though smallwhite, can speak for herself, my observation is that she is very interested in efficiency. Some others here are as well, and some of us aren't all that interested in that aspect. Most members are somewhere in between. We also have a core of experienced self-learners who are beyond the stage of having to figure out what works for them in the process and look to have fun with their language-learning. We also have some beginners who upon seeing that, think that they can do it too- to varying results.

I assume as a native-speaker of German that you learned your English from school and via a mix of activities with native materials, correct me if I'm wrong, neumanc. Your profile suggests that you have yet to learn a language via self-study. As I've said before, self-learning, by definition, is highly individual. There is no "one size fits all" solution for learning a language on one's on. If memorization were everything, then anki/srs and shadowing would be all that a learner needs to learn a language. It would be the most effective and efficient method and everyone would drop all other methods to adopt it.

My experience is that, yes, some memorization is critical. Also, in my observation, memorization of an entire course, or 10,000 sentences or 10,000 srs reps is not the answer. Some combination of working with a course/grammar, memorization, manipulating the language, speaking, writing, reading and listening seems to work best. What that mix is, the percentage devoted to each activity, is what varies so widely among self-learners. For some that mix may be roughly equal or skewed heavily in one direction at first- like course/grammar work and memorization and then more towards use of the language. Some learners who have multiple languages under their belts can see patterns, recognize grammar and can get more out of native materials more easily. They may eschew formal course work and memorization entirely and may not understand why everyone can't do the same.

You will have to find your own path and it won't be very efficient at first because- self-learning, by definition, is highly individual. Personally, while I admire their accomplishments, the youtube polyglots have never been my inspiration or guides. Nobody died and left them to be the bosses in language-learning. Luca doesn't have all the answers. Professor Arguelles doesn't have all the answers. I don't have the answers. What we do have, to some extent, is the answers for ourselves. I wish you luck in finding your own answers to help you to learn a language on your own.

[smallwhite]

LLorg is not about efficiency. LLorg is about fun.

What? What is this even supposed to mean? That we shouldn't have any more discussions about heavy-duty study methods like doing audio-lingual drills and memorizing dialogues? I don't want it to be true, but I do get the impression that the quality of the discussions on this forum is a bit impoverished compared to HTLAL. And besides, aren't you doing 8,000 flash cards of Turkish according to your profile? This is definitely not the kind of fun I'm into. Did I say that I am a confessing Anki-unbeliever?

I mean LLorg members are not very concerned about efficiency, and you won't get inspiring discussions about efficiency here. LLorg members are more concerned about fun.

I don't like Anki either.

[Xmmm]

That we shouldn't have any more discussions about heavy-duty study methods like doing audio-lingual drills and memorizing dialogues?

Do an experiment.

1. Go on Italki, get someone with teaching credentials in Dutch to evaluate your level in spoken Dutch.
2. Do three months of drilling with Glossika and memorizing all the dialogues you want. Write down how many hours you did it for.
3. Get evaluated again.

If you jump from A2 spoken Dutch to B2 spoken Dutch in 3 months with less than 200 hours of work, I guarantee people will start writing about "the neumanc method."

[rdearman]

It is quite obvious that you will learn more if you work harder with your texts (isn't it?), but it's also a question of efficiency. Where lies the sweet spot according to your experience? Is it worth the extra time to memorize your textbook or not? If not why? Which kind of processing depth is optimal? Is it better to know less material very well or is it better to go over lots of materials even if you can only remember a very small part thereof?

Although I agree with many here that the dialogues in many textbooks are sort of unnatural, I don't believe they are completely useless. Personally I think the advantage would lie somewhere in the middle of complete memorization and just reading through. By this I mean that there are certainly phrases in a textbook which I can foresee me using, or using a minor variation thereof.

So where there are phrases in the dialogues which can be lifted out and used or used for "islands" with a little modification I think it is a good idea for the student to memorise them. For example, I memorised: 我会说一点普通话。(Wǒ huì shuō yīdiǎn pǔtōnghuà.) "I can speak a little mandarin."

I can see the value of memorising this phrase straight away. Other phrases aren't as useful, or I'm unlikely to ever use them are still useful for "modification". An example might be something like this in the textbook: "I would like to buy a shirt." being modified to fit your use, or just memorise the "I would like to buy..." portion of the phrase.

For me the most efficient way to use the dialogues is to imagine yourself using each of them, or a modified version of them in reality and memorise as you seem fit. Although you cannot anticipate all events, you can anticipate many.

Dialogues can also be a good "jumping off point" to making your own sentences based on the examples.

[garyb]

Regarding efficiency, my impression has always been that many of us have high ambitions ("learn a language" is very much one in itself!) and limited time so we're trying to make the most of it and find a trade-off where learning is both enjoyable and efficient. Most need some element of enjoyment to maintain motivation in the long term, and it goes without saying that it's not a false dichotomy and more efficient doesn't necessarily mean less enjoyable or vice versa.

It seems like some of the longest-running and most in-depth threads have been about things like "rapid vocabulary acquisition", how many words can be learned in a given amount of time, and the hours needed to reach a certain level. Many beginners here seem near-obsessed with finding the magic combination to overcome the initial hump as quickly as possible. To me this all indicates an interest in efficiency, although in my opinion most of these numbers-oriented discussions miss the bigger picture of learning a language and so I hardly find them "inspiring".

It's maybe a bit trite and simplistic to say it but I'd also imagine that those most concerned with efficiency aren't the ones posting the most on here, so you'll see more posts from the "dabbling and cookies" types than more serious learners who are probably just getting on with their studies and realise that it's usually more productive to put in the time than to try to find secrets to very marginal gains. Again, I and most of us are probably somewhere between the two extremes here and come here for other reasons than just technical discussion, and I'm not denying that plenty frequent posters are also great learners.

[eido]

I mean LLorg members are not very concerned about efficiency, and you won't get inspiring discussions about efficiency here. LLorg members are more concerned about fun.

That's true. To quote @iguanamon, as I did in my log:

One of the things I see often among beginning learners is the need for material that is "interesting". I agree that this is important, but I don't let it rule my language-learning in the beginning stages. In the beginning stages of training listening in Portuguese, I sought out comprehensible material- audio with a transcript and an English translation was helpful at first. Being "bored" also depends on how you look at a task, in my experience. I can put up with anything for ten or fifteen minutes, anything- especially if I know that it will take me where I want to be. I think that is something that comes with being an experienced language-learner. I can see the benefit, whereas a beginner just sees- boring. Larger languages have a more wider variety of materials from which to choose. Lesser learned languages, and Portuguese is one of them, have fewer things available from which to choose. My philosophy is by any means necessary to learn the language and I keep my eyes on that prize. A lot of learning a language is repetition, either through an srs system, natural use of the language, or a combination of both. There's no getting around it.

I know I'm always looking for what will keep my interest, but I am keen to learn about the other side of the coin, if you will.

[drmweaver2]

I believe there are inherent efficiencies in well-structured, native-like "canned dialogues". Notice the qualifiers there.

Those which are not well-structured and/or native-like are less efficient by default/definition. But you CAN find the good ones. You just have to look - or work with a native-speaker to craft them yourself.

When I swam competitive distances, I trained to ingrain a "basic, efficient stroke" - something I could simply switch on without thinking that would make the maximum use of what energy I intended to use over a specific distance or time period. Eventually, working on that "ingrained stroke" became a matter of diminishing returns - making THAT stroke more efficient gained me less and less for the amount of work I put into it.

It's the same with language dialogues. I'm pretty sure that a C2 level speaker has ZERO need of or desire to work with canned dialogsue, no matter how good or interesting the dialogue is. For those in the A1-B1 levels, it's probably another story entirely - it definitely is for me.

I'll repeat what I said way earlier - you get out of them what you put into them as a learner. If you memorize them inside out, backwards and forwards AND L1-L2-L1, you get at least two things - improved memory and automaticity in recall. Anything more is lagniappe.

[reineke]

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[neumanc]

That we shouldn't have any more discussions about heavy-duty study methods like doing audio-lingual drills and memorizing dialogues?

Do an experiment.

1. Go on Italki, get someone with teaching credentials in Dutch to evaluate your level in spoken Dutch.
2. Do three months of drilling with Glossika and memorizing all the dialogues you want. Write down how many hours you did it for.
3. Get evaluated again.

If you jump from A2 spoken Dutch to B2 spoken Dutch in 3 months with less than 200 hours of work, I guarantee people will start writing about "the neumanc method."

Dialang or it didn't happen

Well, I did do an experiment today. I used Dialang to get an impression of my Dutch abilities, which I didn't consider to be very high, since I have only worked with two and a half of my four Dutch Assimil courses (not including the advanced one). Last time I spoke with my Dutch tutor, he said that he estimated my speaking ability to be around C1. Up until now, I thought that he would wildly exaggerate. Now, I don't think so any more. Below are my Dialang test results for Dutch. All tested competencies are considered to be C2 (!). Look for yourself. Maybe memorizing and shadowing isn't so bad after all. Just so you know: I did no grammar study, I didn't write anything, I did nearly no speaking, I watched only very sparsely TV. The result is this:

[Xmmm]

Okay, great. Care to delineate the method? Or will the secret die with you?