How to learn with dialogues?

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neumanc
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How to learn with dialogues?

Postby neumanc » Tue Oct 16, 2018 2:47 pm

Dear fellow language learners, many if not all textbooks contain dialogues in order to present the target language. But very few textbooks tell the learner what exactly he could do in order to learn from them. I am certain that this question has been raised in many different postings on this forum. However, there's no single thread about what to do with the dialogues in your textbook, at least I couldn't find it. I would like to know your ideas and thoughts about this.

There are several different approaches one could think of. For example: One could use the dialogues just as demonstration how the target language is used. So read the dialogue, learn the vocabulary and the "demonstrated" grammar rules, do some exercises and that's it. This approach is used in many classes including the classes I visited in school. The result: I couldn't communicate very well because it took too long to construct any sentence by putting together the words and the rules. On the other side of the spectrum would be the memorization of the dialogues line by line. Very tedious and you might end up with a lot of canned phrases. But would you be able to manipulate them? In between, there is everything from just reading the dialogues quietly or aloud several times and/or transcribing and learning only useful expressions and collocations to listening-reading, shadowing, echoing, chorussing, doing scriptorium, ankifying, translating and retranslating the dialogues and possibly rephrasing them.

It is quite obvious that you will learn more if you work harder with your texts (isn't it?), but it's also a question of efficiency. Where lies the sweet spot according to your experience? Is it worth the extra time to memorize your textbook or not? If not why? Which kind of processing depth is optimal? Is it better to know less material very well or is it better to go over lots of materials even if you can only remember a very small part thereof?
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Re: How to learn with dialogues?

Postby smallwhite » Tue Oct 16, 2018 3:09 pm

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Re: How to learn with dialogues?

Postby iguanamon » Tue Oct 16, 2018 5:36 pm

neumanc wrote:Dear fellow language learners, many if not all textbooks contain dialogues in order to present the target language. But very few textbooks tell the learner what exactly he could do in order to learn from them. ... It is quite obvious that you will learn more if you work harder with your texts (isn't it?), but it's also a question of efficiency. Where lies the sweet spot according to your experience? Is it worth the extra time to memorize your textbook or not? If not why? Which kind of processing depth is optimal? Is it better to know less material very well or is it better to go over lots of materials even if you can only remember a very small part thereof?

In my years on this forum and on HTLAL, I've seen several people try to "over-learn" a course. In other words trying to squeeze every last drop out of it by memorization, shadowing and putting everything into srs. The results I remember weren't transformative and didn't provide a quantum leap in language-learning to these folks.

A course is incomplete, imperfect, even the best ones. Despite this, I think we are conditioned to believe in their promise. Courses are full of promise. When we have researched a course and finally get ready to use it we believe in that promise, that if we do the lessons we will learn how to speak and use the language it is teaching us... if only we could just internalize what it wants us to learn, if only we could memorize everything! Sometimes we forget that the course itself is imperfect. That it isn't designed to teach us a language but to recognize patterns and learn how to manipulate those patterns using "snapshots" of the language. These "snapshots" are often artificial constructs designed to illustrate a point.

Years ago on HTLAL, some beginners seemed to think that in order to learn a language... all you need is Assimil. Some folks thought that they weren't using the course effectively because they didn't retain all the vocabulary, phrases and grammar it taught sufficiently well to use them all after the course. The thought process being "Why am I not at B2 now? I've finished the course. I should be able to converse, read and watch native media easily now. I'm going to go back and do the course over, there's just so much gold in there!". These learners may not have taken into account that the process involves consolidation and use in the real world, that learning continues to take place after the course. If I give you a book and videos on how to play golf, how good will you be in your first attempts at playing on the golf course? If you learn how to drive and the "rules of the road" from a book, will you be a good driver when you first get behind the wheel?

While I appreciate the desire for efficiency (everyone wants to find a way to learn a language more quickly), I think the flaw in this logic as applied to use of courses lies in expecting (even though we may say we don't) the course to do all the heavy lifting in learning. I admit that it's an attractive deception. The dialogs are there to show the language in use and/or to illustrate a grammar point. I take note of the patterns and what the dialogs are illustrating. I absorb some of it as I continue to learn outside of the course. but I don't expect more out of the dialogs than that. That's why I follow a multi-track approach. Maybe that mix includes two separate courses and some native material, one course and some native material or a grammar and a parallel text or, if I have learned more than one language in a family, more emphasis on native material. My premise going into learning is that the course, no matter how good it is, isn't sufficient on its own to teach me a language. I believe that (at least for me) language-learning is a more holistic endeavor than just doing a course.

So, no, I don't believe that dialog memorization and "over-learning" of a course is the answer in language-learning. Still, I have been around here long enough to know that I don't have the answers either. Teaching one's self a language, by definition, is a highly individual process.
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Re: How to learn with dialogues?

Postby StringerBell » Tue Oct 16, 2018 7:43 pm

I think Iguanamon has said it pretty well.

Over this past year, I've come to understand that language learning is a really messy, non-linear process where progress is difficult or impossible to measure in the short term. Steve Kaufman said in one of his videos that learning a new language is a process of allowing your brain to get used to a language, and I think that makes a lot of sense. The more I expose my brain to another language, the more familiar it feels. I still have so much to learn when it comes to Italian and Polish, and I don't know any grammar rules since I don't study them, but I can immediately tell when I'm reading something written by a native speaker vs. a language learner writing in their target language. I immediately get a "feel" that the language written by a non-native seems off (unless they have reached a really good level).

So rather than trying to memorize dialogues or lists of words, I just keep listening, reading, L+R, and speaking and slowly, very slowly, I start making improvements. When I spend time trying to speak, it's immediately obvious what I need to learn how to say, and the more I say things, the more I am able to say those things efficiently in the future.

I have never learned using a textbook or a course, but I do have access to a series of short dialogues in Polish that I used repeatedly (among other things). At first I L+R them, then I tried doing some dictation (which helped my spelling and forced me to pay attention to some small details that were easily to overlook when just listening), I did some shadowing, and then months later I periodically listened to them when I needed something not too challenging to listen to when washing the dishes. When I came across a phrase I found particularly useful, I tried to use it myself in conversations, but I didn't stress too much about memorizing the whole thing; first, because I find that boring and counterproductive, and second, if something is important then I will come across it again. I generally remember most things by coming across them repeatedly as opposed to brute-force memorizing them.

So I think all of the things you mentioned can be very useful ways to use dialogues, or a person can simply listen them to get accustomed to the language a bit before moving on to other things. Not being able to communicate well after one course or using one textbook is not very surprising; I think the best these tools can do is give you a taste of the language before you jump into the unknown of native materials and conversations with native speakers (who rarely speak like the artificial dialogues in textbooks), which is where the real learning starts and continues for many, many years.

Since I always seem to be quoting Steve Kaufman, I'll go for broke and mention another video of his where he discussed the need for both repetition and novelty; I have found this to be extremely true for me. The repetition helps to cement certain words, phrases, and constructions in my brain, but too much repetition and I find it difficult to pay attention because I get bored. So I like to alternate between listening to specific podcasts many times (either the same day or over the course of months) and then listening/reading to something completely new. This seems to be the magic combo for me.
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Re: How to learn with dialogues?

Postby drmweaver2 » Tue Oct 16, 2018 8:16 pm

I like dialogues. They provide vocabulary, form and functional examples language-wise. Generally, for me, they are what textbooks revolve around - not the grammar rules the author/others claim.

Without explanation, they provide plug-n-play sentence patterns that can be imitated, extended and varied to the extent anyone desires. You can change person, tense and number of various parts within a sentence as well as changing a sentence from a simple declarative form to an interrogative or an imperative one.

I like dialogues.

Back in the days before dinosaurs, when I took high school Spanish, one homework assignment was to take a textbook dialogue and, using only the vocabulary within that chapter, to re-write the main chapter dialogue - exceptions included exchanging pronouns as needed/desired and using noun synonyms from previous chapters. Most of my classmates did the minimum. The best students made up nearly unrecognizable "new" dialogues which captured the theme, scope and vocabulary of the entire chapter (including non-dialogue readings).

Ex., Original dialogue:
Michael: Hello Maria. How are you today?
Maria: I am fine thank you and you? Did you have lunch?
Michael: Yes, I had pizza for lunch today.
Maria: Do you like pizza?
Michael: Yes, I do. But I don’t like dialogues.


Re-written using slang:
Mike: Yo! What's up?
Maria: 'nada. Whatsamadda you? Eaten yet?
Mike: 'Nah. Nothing but pizza.
Maria: Pigged out, eh?
Mike: Uh huh. But shooting the breeze like this is wearing me out.


You get out of dialogues what you put into them.

Give me a good 20-30 line dialogue with 2 or 3 speakers and I can easily stay busy for a week to 10 days.
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Re: How to learn with dialogues?

Postby zKing » Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:46 am

I am probably at the far opposite end of the spectrum from the repeat-ad-nauseam/memorize crowd as I bore easily with non-novel content. That said, I do believe that I should repeat listen to content more than I do, but I don't think that listening past the point where 90%-98% of the content is transparent has value... or at least there is more value in finding new content at that point. I also think memorizing content is an inefficient use of time perhaps with the exception of a nice self-introduction 'island'. Even then, rather than memorizing it, I would say it would be enough to write the island, have it corrected, and then practice reading it out loud and have a native repeatedly correct your pronunciation to perfect your delivery of it. If you practice reading it to the point of an excellent pronunciation... most of that content will become VERY familiar.

I don't distinguish dialogs from other audio/video content, so I basically do the same thing with all of it...

What I Tell Myself I SHOULD Do
    1. Listen To Whole Thing (or ~5 minute chunks if it is longer)
    2. Is the content 90+% transparent? If Yes, Move on to something else [DONE]
    3. No?
      a. Carefully read the text/subs for that chunk
      b. Look up the stuff I don't know
      c. Save interesting vocab
    4. Listen To Whole Thing (chunk) Again
    5. Is the content 90+% transparent OR am I bored with it? If Yes, Move on to something else [DONE]
    6. No?
      a. Refer to notes and Short Loop Repeat play in turn each individual sentence/phrase until each is 90+% transparent or I get bored.
    7. Goto #4

What I Actually Do
    1. Start Listening (while reading text/subs)
      a. Pause the moment I don't understand something
      b. Re-read current sentence Subtitle/Text, look up unknowns, save new vocab in spreadsheet
      c. Continue Playback
    2. At end of content... Move on to something else [DONE]
    3. (Maybe someday, weeks or months later, come back and try it again when it seems new again)

I'd bet the middle ground, between the extremes of memorize-word-for-word and listen-once, is probably the more efficient path.
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Re: How to learn with dialogues?

Postby neumanc » Wed Oct 17, 2018 6:24 pm

I thank you very much for your quality responses so far. I have to agree with you that one resource alone can never be enough for learning a language. So a multi-track-approach is mandatory in any case. No one course has enough material in it to "finish" a language, even if memorized verbatim. That's for clear. For example: An Assimil course (which is rather comprehensive in comparison to other courses) contains about 2000 to 3000 sentences and about 2500 different words. I agree that this is not enough in order to hold a decent conversation, it would be necessary to know many more words to express yourself with some precision (6000 words or more, the exact number may differ). Furthermore, even if 2500 words would be adequate, a course would not be able to present them in enough combinations, since these words are oftentimes used in collocations that you cannot know unless you have seen (acquired/learned) them. There's a difference between possible, i.e. grammatically correct, language and real, i.e. idiomatically correct, language, like sayings, collocations and expressions used by natives. That's the reason why non-natives sound a little bit off even if they express themselves grammatically. Moreover, just memorizing a course wouldn't give you enough practice in manipulating the language. This can only be achieved with practice. So agreed, one course can never be enough. The multi-track-approach it is.

That being said, the question remains what precisely to do with your dialogues, be it from a course or from a podcast or whatever. I think the discussion should take into account three very different, but interrelated aspects:

(1) How much different content do you need to see (acquire/learn) in order to know enough vocabulary, collocations and examples of certain grammar rules? Is an Assimil course only two hours of more or less random content like any other resource, like Steve Kaufman said in one of his YouTube videos (I don't remember which one, sorry), that you listen to a few times and then just go on? Or is it an example text, graded as it is, from that you can learn many things if you only would notice and/or internalize them deeply enough? If one course isn't enough, would five different courses be enough? I find it always quite surprising that even the courses from one and the same publishing house (take Assimil, for example) contain very different vocabulary items from one generation/edition to another, even though they claim to bring you to the same level. Doing more than one course would therefore help to get a more complete picture, especially if advanced courses are added to the mix. Or is it really necessary to binge-watch TV instead of doing courses, because only this can give you enough "input"?

(2) How much can you rely on unconscious, implicit learning? In other words how consciously do you need to process the language in order to remember anything? If you rely on implicit learning, binge-watching TV or better watching the same series over and over and/or listening to the same textbook dialogues many times and especially shadowing the same material over and over would probably be the best you could do. If you want to learn and remember something more actively and consciously, reciting sentences in order to memorize them, ankifying whole phrases of your course or at least all the new words and expressions, translating and retranslating sentences and especially rephrasing entire dialogues would be better. The more cognitive processing, i.e. recalling and thinking, the better. However, this takes time, time you could (better?) invest in just shadowing enough material (how much is up for debate) enough times (50, 100, 200 times?) in order to accustom your brain, ears and speech apparatus to understanding and producing the language until it becomes second nature and you can recite the lines of your course book dialogues back and forth without thinking too much, even without ever trying to memorize. Because you have all these sentences, phrases and fragments in your head, they probably (hopefully) begin to recombine and become alive. By the way, also Glossika relies on this principle, in my eyes. But we all know that doing excessive repetitions can be quite boring, so this has to be taken into account in determining the best (individual) learning strategy.

(3) How structured should your learning be? If you just watch TV, you happen to learn the language used in your favorite TV series. If you like detective series, for example, your vocabulary would be quite skewed. Would you be able to discuss political systems or climate change? Would you even be able to understand basic cooking recipes or name all the different kinds of animals even small children are supposed to know, at least according to children's books? How many italki lessons would you have to book and how organized would the teacher have to be if you would want to learn enough different vocabulary just by doing, i.e. conversing? However, good advanced courses should do the trick, especially if you do more than one. Even beginner courses are good for you because they (at least should) give you the vocabulary and structures most needed in the beginning stage, so you can concentrate on these. Especially if you try to really remember these words so that you can actively use them, this should get you going. This doesn't hinder you from having a much broader passive understanding of the language possibly acquired just by just listening to podcasts or watching television.

So what precisely should you do with your dialogues? Are there any (extreme) experiences we could learn from, i.e. experiments in memorizing large passages of your textbook or shadowing the dialogues ad nauseam? Were they succesful or worth the time and effort? Perhaps there's somebody who has shadowed, ankified and/or memorized 10,000 sentences of coursebook dialogues? Maybe textbook dialogues aren't en vogue any more because everybody just wants to believe that language learning is as easy as having fun with your Skype buddies and watching TV? Perhaps nobody wants to hear the bitter truth anymore that language learning is more often than not hard work and only enjoyable after having invested enough time and effort so that you can reap the benefits? Please don't get me wrong: I'm not against having fun or getting "input". I just have the impression that I'm not learning/acquiring enough doing so. It's so unsystematic that I don't have the feeling that I learn anything tangible at all. Do you feel me? Since I don't consider written grammar exercises worth doing, because they don't help you automate the language, perhaps "working" hard enough with the dialogues is the solution.

Edit: Typos
Last edited by neumanc on Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How to learn with dialogues?

Postby Decidida » Wed Oct 17, 2018 6:59 pm

Good question. I want to come back later and really properly read this thread and post more.

I like Pimsleur for a few specific reasons. I appreciate dialogues in other resources to supplement the Pimsleur course, that only works well for me as an end goal, not an introduction. I NEED Pimsleur for the exact reasons that it does not work for me. LOL. Later I will explain that.

Thanks!
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Re: How to learn with dialogues?

Postby Xmmm » Wed Oct 17, 2018 9:41 pm

neumanc wrote:Maybe textbook dialogues aren't en vogue any more because everybody just wants to believe that language learning is as easy as having fun with your Skype buddies and watching TV? Perhaps nobody wants to hear the bitter truth anymore that language learning is more often than not hard work and only enjoyable after having invested enough time and effort so that you can reap the benefits?


I think it's all a question about whether -- at the end of the day -- you want to sound like a normal human being when you speak your TL, or you want to sound like a walking 'advanced' textbook.

Have you done Italki with a paid tutor, where you are in the TL 100% of the time? Do you feel that is less effective than an hour of Glossika, or an hour curled up in front of the fire with your favorite textbook? Italki melts my brain, whereas I can fall asleep with my eyes open while doing Glossika, repeat perfectly, and not even know what language I'm using.
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Re: How to learn with dialogues?

Postby Adrianslont » Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:01 pm

Neumanc, I really enjoyed your long post above, asking lots of the big important questions.

I have intuitions about many of those questions and their answers but don’t feel confident about my “answers” because I am not highly proficient in a second language - I’m somewhere in intermediate land in two languages. Also, they are tough questions - and many people often lack insight into their own learning anyway - at least as far as I read it. Members of this forum, I think, are the most insightful bunch of language learners I’ve come across so far....and they still find the questions tough and disagree and are still searching - at leas many of us - others are quite confident in what works for them.

I had a look at your profile and see that you are a native German speaker who also speaks English and studies french at an advanced level and also other languages. I think this places you in an excellent position to answer many of your own questions - probably a better position than most native English speakers I think. I’m going to make some assumptions if you’ll excuse me. I’ll assume that you studied English in school formally with grammar and dialogues and also got heaps of input perhaps in the form of tv, music, computer games etc ie media in the “world language” I’ll assume that you have studied French and other languages in a different way - perhaps mainly in classes and/or with textbooks. If so, I think this places you in an excellent position to answer many of your own questions - which largely revolve around input versus formal study. I’d love to hear YOUR answers to your own questions because you obviously are good at reflection!

Dialogues? My thoughts? I like learning with them because I hope they will be modelling useful things to say when I need to speak to people. And the audio models pronunciation for me. I think learners need to move past them after a while and do extensive reading and tv watching of stuff that is not necessarily dialogue eg documenataries, to broaden vocabulary.
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