reineke wrote:You asked a whole lot of questions. (...) You have also presented a lot of personal opinions as facts. And yet this thread contains some very detailed answers to many of your questions. You also received some good answers in one of your previous threads. (...) Why are you still asking the same questions about language learning basics?
You were interested in building a Glossika-like spaced repetition course. How did that go? You ask, ask, ask but you don't offer much in return. Are you trying to fine-tune a successful language learning system or are you tapping in the dark?
Thank you, Reineke, for your contributions. Please let's remember that we should always be polite to each other. I really don't have to justify myself why I am asking questions and stirring up discussions. This forum, at least as I see it, is not only a place for know-it-alls, who just need a space for letting others know about their wisdom, but also a place for discussion about different
approaches to language learning. The attractiveness of this forum depends on whether any new members or guests find interesting conversations about the big questions of learning languages, like what to do with your textbook, and feel free to join and ask for themselves.
I really don't find it helpful when discussions are nipped in the bud by copying and pasting abstracts of linguistic studies that are only of peripheral interest to the topic in question. If I am asking about what to do with textbook dialogues, what good does it do to post about a study according to which authentic passages may be easier for listeners than created passages? I do understand my textbook dialogues just fine, because I have a transcript and a vocabulary list or even a translation. This is no answer to my question. It is also absolutely irrelevant whether memorization could be good or bad for succeeding in mathematics. Please don't continue derailing this thread.
Besides, I have to reject the assertion that I wouldn't offer much in return. I wasn't only interested in building a Glossika-like spaced repetition course, but I succeded. I posted the code on this forum for anybody to use freely for their own personal use. The script works. Isn't this something "in return"? Apart from that, are only people allowed on this forum who can give something "in return"? Is this meant to encourage anybody to join our forum and partake in discussions without having a background in linguistics? Believe me, it doesn't. But to answer your question how it worked out: The only problem I ran into with my script is that I haven't found good ready-made bilingual audio for the language I am currently studying the most, Dutch (if you read my last discussion topic, you would know this). That's why I'm back to learnig with dialogues.
reineke wrote:Regarding authencity etc, you are putting words into my mouth and drawing conclusions that suit you.
If you're interested in this subject, you can read
"Orality Markers in Spanish Native and Dubbed Sitcoms: Pretended Spontaneity and Prefabricated Orality" and similar papers.
In short, native (and dubbed) programs are plenty authentic and if you care to split hairs sitcoms are apparently closer to the real thing than soaps.
Frankly speaking, I am not interested in this paper, because it doesn't have anything to do with the topic of discussion what to do
with your dialogues. Furthermore, regarding linguistics, please let me say that I am very impressed with what has been achieved so far. But this doesn't apply to the academic field of "second language acquisition" (SLA). In my eyes, this field has yet to discover anything helpful for the independent language learner. This I say as someone who himself is working in academics and who therefore is familiar with and appreciates the scientific method. The bulk of the studies seem to be occupied with what happens in the classroom, which is of peripheral interest to independent language learners at best. The test-subjects are usually unmotivated college students who aren't really comparable to us either. And most of all, many studies are just stating the obvious. Do I really need a study to tell me that good TV shows are similiar to spoken language? No, I don't, because if the shows did sound off, they wouldnt be as succesful as they are. They know what they are doing at Nexflix & Co. Besides, I didn't get to my verdict without having a look into the subject of SLA. In the vain hope I might get something out of it, I read the books "Lessons from Good Language Learners" by Carol Griffiths and "Understanding Second Language Acquisition" by Lourdes Ortega from cover to cover and with great interest. I really don't want to discuss this here now, but please rest assured that books of this kind don't really help the independent language learner.
While I have yet to complete a single course I also ike L2 >L3 audio vocabulary builders. I wouldn't listen to them more than a couple of times though. If I were to do a course or two I'd do it quickly (including "stacking" courses) and move on. I would not attempt to memorize sentences or dialogues. On the other hand I don't mind revisiting interesting (authentic) material. Grammar/reference lookups can prove useful especially if they're relevant to what you are doing (listening, writing etc). If you are unable to extricate words and grammatical structures from uninterrupted spoken language this should be your no 1 priority.
neumanc wrote:"But what do to precisely with your dialogues? Analysing them, copying them in your workbook, reciting them, repeating them, shadowing them, translating them, retranslating them, modifying them, rewriting them, etc., etc.?????"
I listen to them. If I have the opportunity, I participate in actual conversations. TV programs allow me to transition to literature, history books and eavesdropping on random strangers. I don't think I have been very secretive about this.
Here finally you are kind of answering my question. Thank you for that. So courses are only something to get mostly ignored, perhaps listened to, and quickly abandoned in order to get to watching TV, reading books and conversing. I get that. But listening to dialogues alone doesn't make them comprehensible. Don't you at least look at the vocabulary list or translation? Don't you read through the grammar explanations at all? How actually do you learn vocabulary? Don't you study at all? Is there no place for actually learning
a language, is everything acquisition
only? Aren't there succesful language learners who actually do study a lot with dialogues or at least with sentences like Professor Arguelles, Luca Lampariello and Mike Campbell?
I myself have gathered very different experience with courses than you. Of course, I only began to study languages on my own quite recently, and I don't really have much time to do so. Nonetheless I got the impression that courses, especially advances courses, can be a formidable short cut to jump-starting your active skills. I tried out any method I could read about or think of to study with dialogues. Some people would say I'm tapping in the dark, I say it's always good to second guess your approach. The most successful, but also most tedious, way to learn I tried out was to actually memorizing the Assimil Using French course. Since the "translations" are so free that they are more or less useless for doing an active wave, I did this by noting the first letter of every word in a small notebook. Later I just noted the first one or two words of every sentence. Then I repeated the lines as often as necessary to recite whole lessons from memory. The result was that after about two thirds of the course, for the first time, I felt that I had something to say. I asked the first French tutor I ever spoke with how he judged my speaking abilities. The answer was B2 (!). Maybe the tutor was just flattering me, and I know that I didn't take a formal test nor am I inclined to do so. But there's something to it. We discussed right away everything which came to mind without too much strain for either side. On the other side, I often see people on apps like Hellotalk who aren't able to string together one single sentence but want to converse already. I find this learning-by-just-doing-approach to be utterly painful and inefficient. If I don't know the words yet (actively, I mean), I don't converse. In order to learn the words and expressions as quickly as possible, I do a course, or better two or three. On the other hand, I never studied English after I graduated from school. In the last two decades, I got quite an amount of input by reading books and watching TV. I even worked for some time in an English-speaking environement. Do I have the impression that I learned something by just using the language? Certainly, but it took so long that it's simply not practical if you have a demanding job, a family, friends and hobbies, let's say a life to live. How long am I supposed to watch TV each day in order to make enough progress in more than one or two languages? How many hours of reading books a day would be necessary? If you aren't jobless, an underchallenged student with lots of time on your hands, or have the luck of living and/or working in a multi-lingual environement, there has something to be done to speed up the learning process. And this can only be studying, i.e. regular, conscientious hard work. Since most resources are dialogues or other kinds of texts, the question how to process these texts in the most efficient and effective way seems legitimate to me. Only listening to them and then going on to the next resource doesn't cut it. I therefore encourage anybody who actually studies
their textbooks to contribute which kind of approach they felt was most succesful. As of now, my go-to method is shadowing repeatedly with the eyes firmly on the translation until you can exactly
speak on top of the audio. Works for me, at least I think so, and is much less straining than actually memorizing.