Learning forwards and learning backwards

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rstfk
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Learning forwards and learning backwards

Postby rstfk » Sun Oct 14, 2018 2:01 am

I tried to learn mathematics a few years ago. I was never successful at it, but I did come across some interesting ideas about the learning process while I was struggling with motivational issues.

In a Stack Exchange answer (https://math.stackexchange.com/question ... 410#181410), the mathematician Qiaochu Yuan explains how he remains motivated to study:

I start with an explicit and reasonable mathematical goal in mind. By that I don't mean "do a certain number of problems from this book," I mean "learn the material necessary to prove this interesting result" or "learn the material necessary to understand how to interpret this interesting computation." The keyword is "interesting": if I can't drive myself to work using my curiosity, I admit that I usually can't do it.


On another page (http://math.stanford.edu/~vakil/potentialstudents.html), Ravi Vakil gives this observation:

Here's a phenomenon I was surprised to find: you'll go to talks, and hear various words, whose definitions you're not so sure about. At some point you'll be able to make a sentence using those words; you won't know what the words mean, but you'll know the sentence is correct. You'll also be able to ask a question using those words. You still won't know what the words mean, but you'll know the question is interesting, and you'll want to know the answer. Then later on, you'll learn what the words mean more precisely, and your sense of how they fit together will make that learning much easier. The reason for this phenomenon is that mathematics is so rich and infinite that it is impossible to learn it systematically, and if you wait to master one topic before moving on to the next, you'll never get anywhere. Instead, you'll have tendrils of knowledge extending far from your comfort zone. Then you can later backfill from these tendrils, and extend your comfort zone; this is much easier to do than learning "forwards".


The common idea here is that there are (at least) two approaches to learning math: 1) working through textbooks linearly, mastering every concept along the way, and 2) starting with a particular concept you want to understand or problem you want to solve, and letting that guide what you learn. And, to me, this distinction also applies to language learning.

I think most learners have some (roughly) concrete goals. For a mathematician, they may be something like "I want to understand this concept" or "I want to solve this problem." For a language learner, they may be "I want to understand these particular books/movies/TV shows" or "I want to be able to converse fluently with a native." And I think these concrete goals usually imply a more abstract goal. If you want to understand a bunch of books which are all in the same language, you probably also have the abstract goal of learning that language.

To me, "learning backwards" means attacking your concrete goals directly. If you want to understand a movie, you would start by watching that movie and trying to understand it. This would then guide what you learn. Maybe you'll go look up unknown words in a dictionary, or look for concepts in grammar books, or make cards in Anki, etc. The point is that in the "learning backwards" approach, you are doing everything for the sake of the concrete goals.

"Learning forwards" means focusing on your abstract goal. This change in focus might broaden the sort of activities you may choose to do. Maybe you'll work through a course, or study a grammar book, or learn vocabulary from a list or dictionary. Even the process of trying to understand a movie, like mentioned above, could count as "learning forwards." But the change in focus is significant: you are doing it for the sake of learning the language, rather than simply for the sake of understanding the movie.

In my opinion, the "learning backwards" approach is more effective in terms of motivation. I am not personally motivated by large abstract goals like "I want to learn mathematics" or "I want to learn this language." There are specific concrete things I want to be able to do, so it makes sense to center my studies around them. However, I think this approach should also include activities that look a lot like "learning forwards" activities. It is obvious that if I want to understand a lot of media in some language, then I should try to develop the more general skill of understanding that language. This means studying textbooks, learning vocabulary, and all the rest. This has worked quite well for me because the formal studies "feed into" and help me during my more "concrete" studies, and vice versa. I would consider AJATT a very "learning backwards" method, and even it acknowledges that having basic knowledge of grammar will assist you when you are immersing in native material.

In mathematics, concepts build upon each other, but this isn't 100% hierarchical. It's more like a large, distributed graph. I think this is what Vakil means when he says that mathematics is rich. And the same goes for languages. There are many different things to learn which don't necessarily depend on each other. They don't need to be studied in a linear, systematic fashion, mastered one after the other. You can have less-than-perfect understanding in some areas while building better understanding in other areas. So while I think studying grammar books, etc. is important, these are really just more methods of filling in the "tendrils" - it doesn't have to be systematic or linear.

What do you think about all this? Do you tend to organize your studies around "learning these languages" or more around "learning to do these certain things in these languages"? I could certainly see some people simply being interested in the languages themselves, rather than wanting to do anything with them in particular. I also think the goal of "I just want to be in the process of learning these languages, because it's fun" is also valid, and probably a lot easier to achieve!
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golyplot
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Re: Learning forwards and learning backwards

Postby golyplot » Sun Oct 14, 2018 4:09 am

I don't think the cases are similar enough to draw a useful comparison.

In math, the prerequisites to understand a particular result are fairly well defined. The opposite is true in language learning.

If you have the goal to say, understand X movie, the steps you would take are largely the same as for Y movie or for anything else language related. You can't just shortcut it by say going through the script and looking up each word in a dictionary, because that won't be any fun and probably won't help unless you have a hollistic understanding anyway. So "learning backwards" in the language learning case is broad to the point of rendering the concept useless.

Sure it helps with motivation to have ideas of specific things you want to be able to do with the language so that you have motivation to learn the language, but unlike with mathematics, those goals cannot direct you to specialize to any great degree.
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Re: Learning forwards and learning backwards

Postby Ani » Sun Oct 14, 2018 11:42 pm

golyplot wrote:I don't think the cases are similar enough to draw a useful comparison.

...

So "learning backwards" in the language learning case is broad to the point of rendering the concept useless.


As someone with a math degree & deep love of math, I have to completely disagree. I think the parallels are incredible.

In both math & language learning, if you're "learning backwards" to understand a specific piece of media or a specific result without something close to the right foundation, you'll be incredibly frustrated. That doesn't make it impossible -- some people have a very high tolerance for frustration and there are definitely people who have learned both math and languages from this method.

I really can't imagine someone who loves math *not* having been driven to learn new things through fascination with a particular idea. It's those "wait what?", "How did you get there?, "Holy cow that's awesome" moments that inspire mathematicians to invest the enormous amount time required to get good. Those same moments drive language learners. And both subjects take thousands of hours of your life.

I've been learning forwards and backwards a lot in French lately. I've been running through drills, mostly focusing on areas where I've made a mistake recently, and learning backwards trying to get more comfortable with very casual language. Every day I have something to turn over in my mind -- I posted on my log the other day that I'm struggling with a particular usage of something. I'm still chewing on it. I have to say the mental process is exactly the way I used to chew math problems or proofs.
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Re: Learning forwards and learning backwards

Postby Decidida » Mon Oct 15, 2018 7:48 pm

Thanks rstfk,

I, too, see the parallels. Thanks for posting this.

With math, I absolutely must spiral through topics and revisit them on a deeper level again and again. I can now better see how that is something I need to plan to do in language learning.

Yes, planning backwards and forwards. I have been doing that by accident, but have not been planning that as efficiently as possible.

THANKS!
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Re: Learning forwards and learning backwards

Postby reineke » Mon Oct 15, 2018 11:42 pm

rstfk wrote:I tried to learn mathematics a few years ago. I was never successful at it, but I did come across some interesting ideas about the learning process while I was struggling with motivational issues.

In a Stack Exchange answer (https://math.stackexchange.com/question ... 410#181410), the mathematician Qiaochu Yuan explains how he remains motivated to study:

I start with an explicit and reasonable mathematical goal in mind. By that I don't mean "do a certain number of problems from this book," I mean "learn the material necessary to prove this interesting result" or "learn the material necessary to understand how to interpret this interesting computation." The keyword is "interesting": if I can't drive myself to work using my curiosity, I admit that I usually can't do it.


On another page (http://math.stanford.edu/~vakil/potentialstudents.html), Ravi Vakil gives this observation:

Here's a phenomenon I was surprised to find: you'll go to talks, and hear various words, whose definitions you're not so sure about. At some point you'll be able to make a sentence using those words; you won't know what the words mean, but you'll know the sentence is correct. You'll also be able to ask a question using those words. You still won't know what the words mean, but you'll know the question is interesting, and you'll want to know the answer. Then later on, you'll learn what the words mean more precisely, and your sense of how they fit together will make that learning much easier. The reason for this phenomenon is that mathematics is so rich and infinite that it is impossible to learn it systematically, and if you wait to master one topic before moving on to the next, you'll never get anywhere. Instead, you'll have tendrils of knowledge extending far from your comfort zone. Then you can later backfill from these tendrils, and extend your comfort zone; this is much easier to do than learning "forwards".


The common idea here is that there are (at least) two approaches to learning math: 1) working through textbooks linearly, mastering every concept along the way, and 2) starting with a particular concept you want to understand or problem you want to solve, and letting that guide what you learn. And, to me, this distinction also applies to language learning.

I think most learners have some (roughly) concrete goals. For a mathematician, they may be something like "I want to understand this concept" or "I want to solve this problem." For a language learner, they may be "I want to understand these particular books/movies/TV shows" or "I want to be able to converse fluently with a native." And I think these concrete goals usually imply a more abstract goal. If you want to understand a bunch of books which are all in the same language, you probably also have the abstract goal of learning that language.

To me, "learning backwards" means attacking your concrete goals directly. If you want to understand a movie, you would start by watching that movie and trying to understand it. This would then guide what you learn. Maybe you'll go look up unknown words in a dictionary, or look for concepts in grammar books, or make cards in Anki, etc. The point is that in the "learning backwards" approach, you are doing everything for the sake of the concrete goals.

"Learning forwards" means focusing on your abstract goal. This change in focus might broaden the sort of activities you may choose to do. Maybe you'll work through a course, or study a grammar book, or learn vocabulary from a list or dictionary. Even the process of trying to understand a movie, like mentioned above, could count as "learning forwards." But the change in focus is significant: you are doing it for the sake of learning the language, rather than simply for the sake of understanding the movie.

In my opinion, the "learning backwards" approach is more effective in terms of motivation. I am not personally motivated by large abstract goals like "I want to learn mathematics" or "I want to learn this language." There are specific concrete things I want to be able to do, so it makes sense to center my studies around them. However, I think this approach should also include activities that look a lot like "learning forwards" activities. It is obvious that if I want to understand a lot of media in some language, then I should try to develop the more general skill of understanding that language. This means studying textbooks, learning vocabulary, and all the rest. This has worked quite well for me because the formal studies "feed into" and help me during my more "concrete" studies, and vice versa. I would consider AJATT a very "learning backwards" method, and even it acknowledges that having basic knowledge of grammar will assist you when you are immersing in native material.

In mathematics, concepts build upon each other, but this isn't 100% hierarchical. It's more like a large, distributed graph. I think this is what Vakil means when he says that mathematics is rich. And the same goes for languages. There are many different things to learn which don't necessarily depend on each other. They don't need to be studied in a linear, systematic fashion, mastered one after the other. You can have less-than-perfect understanding in some areas while building better understanding in other areas. So while I think studying grammar books, etc. is important, these are really just more methods of filling in the "tendrils" - it doesn't have to be systematic or linear.

What do you think about all this? Do you tend to organize your studies around "learning these languages" or more around "learning to do these certain things in these languages"? I could certainly see some people simply being interested in the languages themselves, rather than wanting to do anything with them in particular. I also think the goal of "I just want to be in the process of learning these languages, because it's fun" is also valid, and probably a lot easier to achieve!


Both texts speak to each other in the sense that they view the task as being immense and impossible to achieve in systematic linear chunks. In SLA research this traditional approach to language instruction has been pinpointed as particularly problematic: one cannot learn and assimilate complex language structures in this fashion. Your conclusions are an appealing mess.
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Re: Learning forwards and learning backwards

Postby Decidida » Wed Oct 17, 2018 6:13 pm

reineke wrote: Your conclusions are an appealing mess.


I think learning languages is messy. I think when we try to do it without making any mess, we set ourselves up for definite failure. We see the mess and mistakenly believe it suggests failure at learning the language.

In law class we were talking about illegal practice of law and the ethics of explaining vs interpreting, and how that gets even more complicated when talking about illiterate and immigrant clients. Monolingual students did not understand why interpretation is not precise. The conversation got so messy, The ethics topic in English was messy, but when we added in illiteracy and foreign language, we got so messed up that we gave up.

Some of these "ethics" laws are just monopoly protection laws anyway. Yes, we can get in trouble, but ... the ideas behind them are NOT protecting clients.

I'm back to trying to learn Creole and Spanish side by side while juggling law classes. Sigh! My phone blows up with texts in three languages. I want to understand and I want to be understood. Sometimes, it is very very important.

I IMMEDIATELY needed an almost illiterate Spanish speaker whose English reading is far wore than his Spanish reading and he didn't want to come until I told him "What?". I just gave up and kept sending "Por favor." "Por favor" over and over. He came. LOL.

I know I need to focus on the basic words and phrases that I need most, but no textbook covers those. I waste a lot of time trying to create my own lessons. On the other hand just following a text is a waste of time. I can give up for awhile, until I end out in crisis again.

It is best if I work forwards with a text any text, but work backwards by drilling the words and phrases that I know that I need most. I now know that I need at least some resources that let me skip things. I have learned that Mango languages lets me read screens without mastering the material with a response, or flip right past them without even reading them.

For example the screens with the names of countries, I did not even read and just flipped through them. When screens with those words come up later, I just read the screen instead of trying to guess the answer before looking at the answer.

I need to mindlessly work through some things on my phone that allow me to work forward and backward and I finally managed to figure that out without being able to identify what it was that I was doing just as this thread started.

I have a mess. I freeze and can only remember the wrong language when I need the other. I am not mastering anything. YET. I have a mess. I am having to learn to be okay with my mess. Mess does not always equate failure. Dual goals do not always equate failure. Maybe being unable to tolerate mess is what equates to failure.
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