Dilemma seek opinion

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Flickserve
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Dilemma seek opinion

Postby Flickserve » Tue Oct 09, 2018 12:35 pm

Learning Chinese Mandarin. Satisfactory improvement this year. Still B1 level. Road to B2 takes ages.

Other interest:

a) Japanese (culture and I like the place). Rarely native speaker contact. Looks hard!

b) Korean (less interested than Japanese). Get two to three chances a week for native speaker contact on a social basis. A few native Korean speakers with A2/B1 english skills.

Always intended to start Japanese after Mandarin but I only go to Japan every two years. For Korean, the native speaker contact seems too good an opportunity to miss.

Which language would you pick? Korean or Japanese.
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Re: Dilemma seek opinion

Postby Deinonysus » Tue Oct 09, 2018 6:30 pm

The importance of interest vs. speaking opportunities will depend on the person. Nobody can decide that for you.

Here is a video comparing the two languages:


The difficulty level should be about the same. They'll both probably be easier for you than someone who doesn't speak any Mandarin. Japanese uses Chinese characters (traditional with a few characters modified), and they both have Chinese loanwords but I think Korean uses a bit more. Pronunciation will generally be different from Mandarin, so you'll need to use your imagination.

If you still can't decide, start watching K-pop and J-pop music videos until you decide.

If that doesn't work, start watching Anime and K-drama until you decide.

If that doesn't work, start watching Japanese and Korean monster movies until you decide.

If that doesn't work, start studying Uzbek until you decide. You can find a list of Uzbek resources here.
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eido
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Re: Dilemma seek opinion

Postby eido » Tue Oct 09, 2018 6:50 pm

I'm not an expert with East Asian languages, but I can offer a little advice.

On this forum, people will recommend that you focus on one language at a time. Usually at B1 you can start another language since with most languages, by B1 you've covered a lot of the basics and some advanced concepts. But with Chinese there are still some difficulties you will encounter as you try to improve and go higher that are different from European languages. So, based on my limited experience with Chinese (and the other languages you mentioned, one of which I'm studying), I'd say you should hold off studying a language like Korean or Japanese until you're really comfortable with the rules of the one you have the strongest base in. This could come at any level, even B2, but you need to know things thoroughly.

Korean and Japanese are each part of their own respective families, and even though they have some Chinese bleeding in through their histories and vocabulary (and even with each other), their unique vocabularies and grammar will usually throw people off. I can't say how similar Japanese and Korean are since I'm not at a high level in either (though some members of the forum are - let's hope they see this) but they're not exact copies of each other with different words. They won't give many clues about how to tackle the other right away.

It's great you have some people to speak Korean with. I would recommend getting a really solid grasp of it and hold off speaking it until you can speak many basic sentences correctly, with a good vocabulary base. With Spanish it may be easier to fudge a conversation, but with Korean you have to know politeness levels and their verb conjugations as well as other polite verbs and words. That's similar to other Asian languages, but it's essential to the structure of this language. From what I've learned of Chinese, verb conjugations aren't too big a deal. In Japanese they have a similar role as they do in Korean, but like I said, they're not the same. Spoken Korean is also a lot different from written, and I actually did a search on "colloquial" Korean (haha) resources today - of which there aren't many. Your acquaintances may be willing to teach you slang, but if not, your knowledge will have to come from surfing Korean sites.

However, if you like Japanese more, you'll probably have more success with it. What do you like about Japan? The music? The politics? The scenic views? Traditional culture? People here often recommend you find your niche and focus on it so you learn faster. Just because you're not in contact with a speaker daily doesn't mean you can't learn it, or become in contact with one. I'm sure other members can share some success stories regarding language exchange partners - I sure can't, as I haven't been able to make it work.

Where a language is easy, there's always something hard to complicate it. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't learn it.

Deinonysus wrote:If that doesn't work, start studying Uzbek until you decide. You can find a list of Uzbek resources here.

Not the Uzbek meme! :(
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Re: Dilemma seek opinion

Postby Deinonysus » Tue Oct 09, 2018 7:06 pm

eido wrote:
Deinonysus wrote:If that doesn't work, start studying Uzbek until you decide. You can find a list of Uzbek resources here.

Not the Uzbek meme! :(
I prefer Tuvan myself, but a beginner should probably start with a more practical Central Asian Turkic Language. :ugeek:
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Re: Dilemma seek opinion

Postby Flickserve » Tue Oct 09, 2018 11:20 pm

Deinonysus wrote:The importance of interest vs. speaking opportunities will depend on the person. Nobody can decide that for you.


The difficulty level should be about the same. They'll both probably be easier for you than someone who doesn't speak any Mandarin. Japanese uses Chinese characters (traditional with a few characters modified), and they both have Chinese loanwords but I think Korean uses a bit more. Pronunciation will generally be different from Mandarin, so you'll need to use your imagination.

If you still can't decide, start watching K-pop and J-pop music videos until you decide.

If that doesn't work, start watching Anime and K-drama until you decide.

If that doesn't work, start watching Japanese and Korean monster movies until you decide.

If that doesn't work, start studying Uzbek until you decide. You can find a list of Uzbek resources here.


Funnily enough, I don't watch much video content as a rule in any of the languages including English. The only drama I have watched to the end is a Japanese one many years ago. I used to do karate which first exposed me to Japanese culture and every few years, visit the place.

So, it seems to be coming down to what's practical on a daily life basis....and that looks like Korean.

I am realistic - any B1 level will be ok to get by with daily conversation. That's all I need.
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Flickserve
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Re: Dilemma seek opinion

Postby Flickserve » Tue Oct 09, 2018 11:42 pm

eido wrote:
On this forum, people will recommend that you focus on one language at a time. Usually at B1 you can start another language since with most languages, by B1 you've covered a lot of the basics and some advanced concepts. But with Chinese there are still some difficulties you will encounter as you try to improve and go higher that are different from European languages. So, based on my limited experience with Chinese (and the other languages you mentioned, one of which I'm studying), I'd say you should hold off studying a language like Korean or Japanese until you're really comfortable with the rules of the one you have the strongest base in. This could come at any level, even B2, but you need to know things thoroughly.


However, if you like Japanese more, you'll probably have more success with it. What do you like about Japan? The music? The politics? The scenic views? Traditional culture? People here often recommend you find your niche and focus on it so you learn faster. Just because you're not in contact with a speaker daily doesn't mean you can't learn it, or become in contact with one. I'm sure other members can share some success stories regarding language exchange partners - I sure can't, as I haven't been able to make it


Maybe a moderator can help me merge my two consecutive posts.

Thanks for that. I just altered my signature to show more clearly that I also have Chinese Cantonese solid B2 (learnt as an adult).

You talk about niche. I got into doing taekwondo for fitness and conditioning - it so happens the group I am training with are all Korean Masters with very limited English skills. Really enjoy the workouts although I am past my physical peak. Unfortunately, my rate of progress in taekwondo is not matched by any progress in Korean language except for counting numbers

Whereas for Japanese, I don't have a niche. It's a general interest.
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Re: Dilemma seek opinion

Postby PeterMollenburg » Tue Oct 09, 2018 11:52 pm

Choosing a language which is practical over one which interests you could be dangerous...

I’ve read a few times of people from the U.S. learning Spanish because they felt they had to, while they would’ve preferred to learn something else (French or German for example). I think it caused a lot of angst and either failed at some point or became a bit of a disastrous mess. The conclusion was that go with your interests.

You may not have access to Japanese speakers, but what about conversational exchanges, italki, meetup and the like? Japanese if much more interesting to you, could be pushed to the forefront in utility if you try to seek out such opportunities with a bit more effort. Of course, I don’t know how practical that is for you, but it’s worth mentioning.

Of course, maybe Korean is rather interesting to you. This is a tricky dilemma, indeed.

Still, generally speaking, focusing on one foreign language at a time is, generally, advisable when you’ve not reached an advanced stage in any foreign language yet, and going with the language you’re most interested also appears to be the general consensus among these parts. Such generalisations are roughly based on anecdotal (but logically explained) success rates.
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Re: Dilemma seek opinion

Postby eido » Wed Oct 10, 2018 12:00 am

Flickserve wrote:You talk about niche. I got into doing taekwondo for fitness and conditioning - it so happens the group I am training with are all Korean Masters with very limited English skills. Really enjoy the workouts although I am past my physical peak. Unfortunately, my rate of progress in taekwondo is not matched by any progress in Korean language except for counting numbers

Whereas for Japanese, I don't have a niche. It's a general interest.

I am just repeating what I've read that personally made sense. For instance, I'm interested in Korean music and history so naturally I will gravitate toward vocabulary that relates to those topics. I'd compare it to being you, but in Korean. Or Japanese. Like, I once read there's different definitions of fluent - some people are really good at introducing themselves and have fantastic pronunciation, but can't debate politics whereas others have really good vocabulary with regard to their occupation but don't know what a mechanic is talking about when they go to get their oil changed and there's more problems than expected. Eventually if you want to have an even coverage of the language you will need to have a good general fluency as well as the kind that lets you read decently complex novels or discuss philosophical topics. But at the beginning, you might just be attracted to what you like, and that's fine because that will keep you interested and motivated when you don't want to study.

We have a Korean Resource thread you might want to check out. r/Korean might be helpful. One source I haven't put in the thread is Core Korean (on udemy), a series of paid courses that teach you basic forms that will get you through the beginner stage mostly unscathed. (Though it's not perfect.)
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Re: Dilemma seek opinion

Postby Flickserve » Thu Oct 11, 2018 3:55 am

PeterMollenburg wrote:Choosing a language which is practical over one which interests you could be dangerous...

I’ve read a few times of people from the U.S. learning Spanish because they felt they had to, while they would’ve preferred to learn something else (French or German for example). I think it caused a lot of angst and either failed at some point or became a bit of a disastrous mess. The conclusion was that go with your interests.

You may not have access to Japanese speakers, but what about conversational exchanges, italki, meetup and the like? Japanese if much more interesting to you, could be pushed to the forefront in utility if you try to seek out such opportunities with a bit more effort. Of course, I don’t know how practical that is for you, but it’s worth mentioning.

Of course, maybe Korean is rather interesting to you. This is a tricky dilemma, indeed.

Still, generally speaking, focusing on one foreign language at a time is, generally, advisable when you’ve not reached an advanced stage in any foreign language yet, and going with the language you’re most interested also appears to be the general consensus among these parts. Such generalisations are roughly based on anecdotal (but logically explained) success rates.

Yeah. Tricky. :D Good points to add to the pros and cons.

I first added Cantonese because it was practical in daily life, even though my preference was for Mandarin. Now I am doing Mandarin and feel fairly OK in carrying out conversations in activities of daily living and making some small talk.

Adding the next language is a little tricky. Korean is really convenient to get the practice and fits into daily life.

Japanese needs a lot more effort with arranging practice and time is always a premium.
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