Resources comparison Fr/Sp-It for fast learning

General discussion about learning languages
User avatar
guiguixx1
Orange Belt
Posts: 190
Joined: Sat Oct 10, 2015 6:10 pm
Location: Belgium
Languages: French (N), English (C2), Dutch (C1), Spanish (C1), Italian (B2), Esperanto (A2), Portuguese (B2), German (A2), Catalan (passively)
x 238
Contact:

Resources comparison Fr/Sp-It for fast learning

Postby guiguixx1 » Wed Oct 03, 2018 5:48 am

Hi all!

After some break time, I've decided to study Italian again. I'm a native French speaker and an advanced Spanish speaker, having lived in Spain for 9 months and having more or less a C1 level in that language. Regarding Italian, I would say I'm A2-ish, and in the B levels regarding passive skills. I've made a log where you can see my writing skills: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 97#p118397

Knowing that I already have an advanced level in two romain languages, I know that learning Italian to a high level would be easy. I also know from feedback that I use a lot of French, English and Spanish (my 3 strong languages, all of them at C levels) when writing Italian and I guess I could improve my Italian dramatically if I were to get personal feedback on what to improve, or if I could know which are the main things that French and Spanish speakers make while learning and using Italian.

I was thus hoping that someone know about ressources meant for French and/or Spanish speakers learning Italian where the focus would be on the similarities and differences with Italian so that I could focus on that and learn faster, instead of discovering the similarities and differences myself.

Would anyone happen to have such resources? This would be very valuable!

Thanks a lot for your help!
3 x
Language learning and teaching website as a French teacher of Dutch and English: cameleondeslangues.be

User avatar
jonm
Orange Belt
Posts: 202
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2018 10:06 pm
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Languages: English (N)
Spanish (adv.)
Bangla (int.)
French (passive)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... =15&t=9402
x 667

Re: Resources comparison Fr/Sp-It for fast learning

Postby jonm » Wed Oct 03, 2018 7:38 am

Hi guiguixx1, one option would be Assimil. I've found that the translations and especially the grammar notes do a pretty good job of calling attention to similarities and differences between target language and base language. With your languages and level of Italian you could probably skip to the Perfectionnement Italien course. I haven't done it myself, as I'm just starting out with Italian, but it seems to be pretty well regarded on the forum.

For a grammar book, there are probably better options in French or Spanish that others might know about, but in English, there's A Comparative Practical Grammar of French, Spanish and Italian. It's overpriced online, but you might be able to find a better deal or get it from the library. But yeah, comparative grammars in French or Spanish might be preferable. I'll be curious to see what others recommend.

Finally, I don't know a ton about it, but I've seen EuRom5 mentioned on the forum. Maybe worth a look.
5 x

garyb
Black Belt - 1st Dan
Posts: 1572
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2015 12:35 pm
Location: Scotland
Languages: Native: English
Advanced: Italian, French
Intermediate: Spanish
Beginner: German, Japanese
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=1855
x 5992
Contact:

Re: Resources comparison Fr/Sp-It for fast learning

Postby garyb » Wed Oct 03, 2018 8:45 am

Assimil in French worked great for me, although my situation was a bit different: high B2 in French, which is obviously very far from native, and A1-ish in Italian. I'm not sure where you should start though: the basic Assimil should cover most of the similarities/differences and grammar points that you need (based on the writing in your log) but the dialogues will probably feel far too easy for you, while Perfectionnement will have dialogues at a more appropriate level but won't really explain the basic differences and grammar because they're already covered in the basic edition. It could be better to just find something that focuses more specifically on the differences and the grammar rather than an "all-in-one" course like Assimil, although I unfortunately don't know what that is, and then use Perfectionnement after that. Failing that, perhaps go through the basic Assimil fairly quickly, focusing less on the dialogues themselves and more on the explanations? Going straight to Perfectionnement might be great for improving your receptive knowledge but I don't think it would achieve what you're asking about here.
2 x

User avatar
jonm
Orange Belt
Posts: 202
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2018 10:06 pm
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Languages: English (N)
Spanish (adv.)
Bangla (int.)
French (passive)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... =15&t=9402
x 667

Re: Resources comparison Fr/Sp-It for fast learning

Postby jonm » Wed Oct 03, 2018 10:27 am

That's a very good point about the downsides of skipping straight to Perfectionnement.

My French is at roughly the same level as guiguixx1's Italian (I'd say I'm B1 receptive, A2/B1 expressive), and I can understand the dialogues in the Using French course (the English-base Perfectionnement) without difficulty, but I've decided to go back and do the basic Assimil French course anyway, because it has a lot of useful notes and vocabulary that I would miss otherwise (and because I enjoy doing these courses). Not surprisingly, there's a lot at the outset that I already know, but already some things that are new, or things I was hazy on and happy to reinforce.

So I agree with garyb that starting with Perfectionnement might mean skipping over some important fundamentals and that it might be better to first look at something that highlights the differences between Italian and other Romance languages or else to look at the basic Assimil course and see if there's a way to do it that wouldn't feel too easy, like focusing more on the explanations and review lessons. One way you could make it more challenging would be to start right in on the active wave.

But yeah, it sounds like a comparative grammar would be helpful. Curious what's out there along those lines.

One last idea would be to look at L'Italiano secondo il Metodo Natura, which is easy to find online. It's entirely in Italian and just works its way up progressively. So it wouldn't explicitly compare and contrast with other Romance languages, but I think a lot of the similarities and differences would reveal themselves. I'm enjoying working through it alongside other resources.
1 x

User avatar
reineke
Black Belt - 3rd Dan
Posts: 3570
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2016 7:34 pm
Languages: Fox (C4)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... =15&t=6979
x 6554

Re: Resources comparison Fr/Sp-It for fast learning

Postby reineke » Wed Oct 03, 2018 2:12 pm

Assimil a load of rubbish??

"I used Supermemo to learn EVERY sentence in Assimil Italian with Ease. It was a very painful task, so painful it used to actually make me feel sick after drilling too hard.

While I have gained good knowledge of Italian syntax and what not through this method, my language ability is still dreadful. I went to Italy, and while I could communicate basically, I still even struggled with that. I could not say what I actually wanted to say, after MASTERING the ENTIRE book.

I know the obvious answer is add more sentences from other sources, but after all that effort I was expecting more. Is Assimil overrated?

What alternatives are out there that will actually allow me to progress to a deep understanding of Italian??"

http://how-to-learn-any-language.com/fo ... PN=0&TPN=1

See:
Amazon.fr
Youtube
1 x

User avatar
iguanamon
Black Belt - 2nd Dan
Posts: 2354
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2015 11:14 am
Location: Virgin Islands
Languages: Speaks: English (Native); Spanish (C2); Portuguese (C2); Haitian Creole (C1); Ladino/Djudeo-espanyol (C1); Lesser Antilles French Creole (B2)
Studies: Catalan
Language Log: viewtopic.php?t=797
x 14196

Re: Resources comparison Fr/Sp-It for fast learning

Postby iguanamon » Wed Oct 03, 2018 3:23 pm

I haven't tried to learn Italian yet but Planeta d'Agostini has a "Curso de Italiano" for Spanish-speakers with audio, if you can find it. Also there's a free online course from RAI called Io Parlo Italiano that looks to be monolingual Italian.

I understand where you are coming from because of my experience learning Portuguese after Spanish. At first I thought, why not approach it by just noticing the differences between Spanish and Portuguese? I thought that doing it that way, it would be much less work. There are several "From Spanish to Portuguese" courses out there that aim to have the learner leverage their Spanish to learn Portuguese. I found they didn't work for me as well as approaching Portuguese as a language on its own right through the almost monolingual DLI Portuguese Basic Course. For me, the "From Spanish to Portuguese" courses were causing me to see Portuguese through a "Spanish prism". The DLI Portuguese Basic Course made me focus on Portuguese and that's when I could "leverage" my Spanish to help me best. That's where and when I noticed the differences better . With your knowledge of Romance languages, maybe you could benefit from a monolingual Italian course in a similar way.

I guess I'm like you. I don't really want to do a Catalan course, but if I ever want to speak it or write it, I don't see any other way except to get down to the hard work of learning how to manipulate it and produce it correctly, even if it does mean using a course.
3 x

garyb
Black Belt - 1st Dan
Posts: 1572
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2015 12:35 pm
Location: Scotland
Languages: Native: English
Advanced: Italian, French
Intermediate: Spanish
Beginner: German, Japanese
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=1855
x 5992
Contact:

Re: Resources comparison Fr/Sp-It for fast learning

Postby garyb » Thu Oct 04, 2018 8:56 am

Hashimi wrote:
reineke wrote:Assimil a load of rubbish??

"I used Supermemo to learn EVERY sentence in Assimil Italian with Ease. It was a very painful task, so painful it used to actually make me feel sick after drilling too hard.

While I have gained good knowledge of Italian syntax and what not through this method, my language ability is still dreadful. I went to Italy, and while I could communicate basically, I still even struggled with that. I could not say what I actually wanted to say, after MASTERING the ENTIRE book.

I know the obvious answer is add more sentences from other sources, but after all that effort I was expecting more. Is Assimil overrated?

What alternatives are out there that will actually allow me to progress to a deep understanding of Italian??"

http://how-to-learn-any-language.com/fo ... PN=0&TPN=1

See:
Amazon.fr
Youtube


This person said that after "supermemoing" Assimil, he can understand written Italian very well, but he didn't get enough exposure to spoken Italian and didn't practice much speaking.


Okay, someone misused an Assimil course and believed the exaggerated marketing about the level it can take a learner to. Interesting story (especially as every so often we do speculate about "what level would someone have if they learned the dialogues of an Assimil book by heart?"; here's the answer!), but I see absolutely no relevance to the OP's question and the suggestion for them to use Assimil to help fill in some gaps in their basic knowledge of a language in the same family as two that they know very well.
2 x

Cavesa
Black Belt - 4th Dan
Posts: 4960
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2015 9:46 am
Languages: Czech (N), French (C2) English (C1), Italian (C1), Spanish, German (C1)
x 17566

Re: Resources comparison Fr/Sp-It for fast learning

Postby Cavesa » Fri Oct 05, 2018 10:02 pm

I like resources by Nathan an Robert

https://www.amazon.fr/Robert-Nathan-Voc ... an+italien

I have got this one. I haven't had the time to fully use it yet, but let me tell you why I bought this one and not the other options:

1.French-Italian, that means avoiding false friends and as close translations as possible.
2.Thematique, I like that. And 20000 words, that is a respectable number.
3.there are three columns on the pages. The words in Italian, in French, and red notes for the francophones learning Italian, like stressing the gender difference (right now looking at la corrente and le courant) , or a "weird" participe, a bit of context use and an example (verb avere l'inspirazione and its example avere l'inspirazione di fare qualcosa), or pointing out a false friend.
4.Additional pages behind each list "Mettere in pratica" (a few exercises but those are not too good, but there are also example texts) and "Altre Parole" with a few texts "Il contesto culturale", and more importantly "Espressioni idiomatiche" and "Proverbi"

I think the grammar books can be similarly good, even though I didn't buy them at that point. And the Spanish books should be similar to the Italian ones.

Bescherelle is different, I prefered Nathat, but those books can be good too.
2 x

Speakeasy
x 7658

Re: Resources comparison Fr/Sp-It for fast learning

Postby Speakeasy » Fri Oct 05, 2018 11:30 pm

reineke wrote: [reineke quoted a third party]: Assimil a load of rubbish?? … While I have gained good knowledge of Italian syntax and what not through this method, my language ability is still dreadful. I went to Italy, and while I could communicate basically, I still even struggled with that. I could not say what I actually wanted to say, after MASTERING the ENTIRE book…
While I appreciate that the individual expressed a degree of frustration and disappointment with his attempt at learning a language using the Assimil method, I find myself in agreement with those who have already commented to the effect that this individual’s experiences should be taken with a grain of salt.

He says that the mastered the entire book, but what are we to make of that? Was he able to look at the English translations for every sentence in this 100-lesson-course and – instantly and unfailingly – generate the appropriate Italian sentences? That would be “mastering the entire book”, something that very few people ever achieve, not the first time around, that is. I suspect that, as for most people, he completed the passive phase and believed himself to be sufficiently prepared for live, on-the-spot, in-your-face, conversation with native speakers, perhaps even in a setting where multiple conversations were going on simultaneously. In other words, I suspect that his true level of skill was around the A2 level, perhaps B1 assuming that he had worked really hard, and that he misunderstood his unpreparedness for conversation in a C2 setting. Had the individual truly worked in a full-immersion situation, in Italian, for a six-month period immediately following his attempt at learning Italian via Assimil, I believe that he would have posted a more nuanced review … meiner Meinung nach (one of the few phrases that I retained from Pimsleur German, a course that I thoroughly enjoyed).

Back to our regular programming.

EDITED:
Typos, of course.
Formatting.
5 x

David1917
Blue Belt
Posts: 596
Joined: Mon Nov 06, 2017 2:36 am
Location: USA
Languages: English (N)
Professional Level: Russian, Spanish
x 1564

Re: Resources comparison Fr/Sp-It for fast learning

Postby David1917 » Sun Oct 07, 2018 7:06 pm

The old 1950's Assimil Sans Peine (Without Toil in English) are phenomenal for this. The first few lessons have past tense and direct/indirect object pronouns right away, as the learning curve is designed for a French speaker rather than English. I haven't done the Italian course, but the Spanish one more or less follows a story of a Frenchman going to Madrid to learn Spanish. It's great for an intermediate/advanced like myself trying to get back up to speed since I haven't used Spanish in a long time. I think as a native French speaker going through one of these old courses would be quite a rewarding and relatively easy experience. Following that, maybe try to track down one of the Passport Books "Practice & Improve" books + audio in Italian. They are apparently also longer running stories throughout the whole work. I can't imagine needing much more than those two resources to feel good about Italian in your position.

Edit: totally forgot about Perfectionnement. That would be great to use side by side with the Passport book to simply add more input.
0 x


Return to “General Language Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Slowpoke and 2 guests