New Prof Argüelles Youtube Series

General discussion about learning languages
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tungemål
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Re: New Prof Argüelles Youtube Series

Postby tungemål » Mon Jun 27, 2022 12:50 pm

I think it's interesting that 6 might be a limit for normal people for how many languages you can juggle. That was an idea that was promoted in Michael Erard's book "Babel no more". On the other hand, it might not be very helpful to anyone to make a hard-and-fast "rule" like this. I got some backlash on that in this thread.

On how many languages Europeans speak: I'd say 3 is not uncommon: Native language, English, and one or even two more that you studied in school. Those who are really interested in languages, like myself, might speak more. Of course, not all to a high level.
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Re: New Prof Argüelles Youtube Series

Postby bolaobo » Mon Jun 27, 2022 1:07 pm

He made this video to dispel controversy since people still question him about that statement he made 15 years ago, but I have a feeling this video is just going to lead to more controversy.

Like einzelne, I don't see how the number of languages some guy on Africa can speak at varying levels has anything to do with how many languages one can master to a very high level. Learning how to read a classical language is a completely different skill than learning how to speak a language well enough to get by in the bazaar.

I don't believe the brain has a hard limit and it just depends on how much time you're willing to spend maintaining and learning.
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Re: New Prof Argüelles Youtube Series

Postby einzelne » Mon Jun 27, 2022 1:24 pm

thevagrant88 wrote:Again, what your saying simply isn’t true


I provided direct quotes from Argüelles himself. I would really appreciate if you, instead of simply repeating that I misrepresented him, started to engage with a real debate. But, personally, I don't know what do you want to argue. He claims (repeatedly) that you can develop high reading skills in 6 languages, to read novels and classical works. Or am I inventing it?

It's hard to achieve this even with easy and languages from the same language family. But drop Chinese (or some Slavic language) in the mixture and watch this idea explode.
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Re: New Prof Argüelles Youtube Series

Postby thevagrant88 » Mon Jun 27, 2022 2:54 pm

einzelne wrote:
thevagrant88 wrote:Again, what your saying simply isn’t true


I provided direct quotes from Argüelles himself. I would really appreciate if you, instead of simply repeating that I misrepresented him, started to engage with a real debate.


But, I have been. I gave plenty of other examples about what he discussed in the video that you must have also seen and thus far you just haven’t acknowledged my counter arguments at all. You keep circling back to the polyliteracy thing even after pointing out multiple times, including providing examples, that there were many other topics discussed, with greater focus, and for a longer period of time. That clearly wasn’t the focus of the content.

By all appearances, your initial comment was directed at the content of that video. It would be odd and frankly misplaced if it wasn’t. If you’d really like me to I’ll provide direct quotes with time stamps when I’m able, but from my memory some of the things he discusses that have nothing to do with reading include:

Learning for heritage reasons

Work opportunities

Travel opportunity

Ability to connect with people you otherwise wouldn’t have.

Religious reasons, he specifies prayer or ritual rather than reading scripture.

He says learning languages to different levels, ie not mastery, is perfectly fine unless you want to be an interpreter or spy. This means not engaging with literature at all if you have no desire to do so.

Helping revive an endangered language.

He says “6” is not a hard number at all. Toward the end he, if I remember correctly, uses a phrase like “a handful” or “several” or something to that effect.

He straight up says he only thinks people should be language learners if they have a passion for it. He says there are many other things in life worth pursuing that have nothing to do with languages.

Like I said, I’m not in a position where I can comfortably extract direct quotes from the video itself at the moment, but fortunately the video is there to be seen, which honestly is probably better because there’s no chance of me misquoting.

My biggest misgiving is this: you haven’t actually addressed what I’ve said so far at all, you’ve just posted quotes that I assume are from the video that you believe validate your claim. But the thing is, those exerts only confirm that he discusses reading at points, not that he is prescribing that you learn specifically 6 languages for the sake of reading because some hill folk in Nepal do. It certainly doesn’t invalidate the rest of the content which, from a time stand point, far out ways that point. If you get out a stopwatch, how much of it is devoted to your interpreted grievance and how much of directly addresses other factors and points of interest? If I may go back to your original quote:

einzelne wrote: I must admit I still don't get this take: "There are some tribes in Africa that can speak in 6 languages, hence you can definitely learn 6 languages, including some exotic ones, to read classical books in them"


Why do you extract this as the overarching theme of his discourse? He mentions people in Lagos and Johannesburg, but again, he says they know their languages to very different levels and for different reasons. Even based on your direct quote, he says that it his HIS aim to read literature, never that random places in India and Africa have high levels of multilingualism so you can read classical texts. I just don’t see how you can watch the video in its entirety and take that to be the thesis statement.

Now that I’ve given examples of everything else he discussed that had nothing to do with reading or are only tangentially related, or the different levels one can achieve and still get enjoyment out of the language, why are you taking this to be his mission statement?

Please, I invite you, disprove what I’ve said. Prove to me that the things I am referring to from that video are not present. Prove that he doesn’t eschew the virtues of language learning, specifically multiple languages, that aren’t related to reading. Does he not say it’s perfectly fine to know languages at different levels? For different, often highly specific reasons that have nothing to do with literature? Does he not encourage learning endangered or heritage languages? Am I making all this up?

I really have to insist that your initial take on the video was reductive, especially if you really didn’t watch the video before commenting like you suggested. By your own admission, you based your take on information that comes from sources outside this video, most prominently a post on an Internet forum from over a decade ago.

So please, consider the things I’ve pointed out from the video, maybe even rewatch it just to make sure I’m not blowing smoke up your skirt, and honestly tell me your takeaway is, “Some people in Bangladesh speak 5 or 6 languages to different levels for various reasons so you can learn 6 in order to read medieval/classic/great books.” The only way you could feel that way would be by flat-out ignoring almost everything in the video.
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Re: New Prof Argüelles Youtube Series

Postby einzelne » Mon Jun 27, 2022 4:01 pm

thevagrant88 wrote:My biggest misgiving is this: you haven’t actually addressed what I’ve said.


Again, how everything you've said so far denies the fact that he also claims that it is possible to become fluent reader of literature in 6 languages and he does it on some very shaky grounds?

This was the sole focus of my original critique. I'm not interested in learning languages for other reasons. I'm not interested in the question of how many languages you can know actively (although Le Baron brought some valuable points of critique) I'm not interested in the question of how many languages an educated person should now. Please, reread closely my original post.

thevagrant88 wrote:Please, I invite you, disprove what I’ve said.


What do you want me to "disprove"? That he discusses other stuff? I don't deny that, so my take is not "reductive". But among other things, Argüelles also claims it is possible to learn 6 languages (from different families) to read comfortably literature. I "extracted" it because I find it very questionable if not downright unrealistic.

So, if you know better than me, instead of recapping the whole video, I would rather appreciate your summary on why Argüelles thinks it's possible "for an average Joe", i.e. not for a literary scholar but just I random person who's an avid reader and would love to read great books in the original.
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Re: New Prof Argüelles Youtube Series

Postby thevagrant88 » Mon Jun 27, 2022 4:55 pm

So, I’m confused. Why are you complaining about that here and now if that wasn’t the focus of the video?

Like, I don’t disagree with you. I don’t think the “average joe”, outside of people with some extraordinary life circumstances, would or could do that either. But that’s not really what he was discussing in this particularly clip.
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Re: New Prof Argüelles Youtube Series

Postby LupCenușiu » Mon Jun 27, 2022 5:06 pm

why Argüelles thinks it's possible "for an average Joe", i.e. not for a literary scholar but just I random person who's an avid reader and would love to read great books in the original.

I don't think is even a debate if is possible or not. People already did that, some surpassed that number by quite a lot. So, maybe a better question would be : is it probable? And now we come to another question, how much time and effort that "average Joe" is willing to invest in that endeavor? A motivated "average Joe", with enough stamina and discipline would succeed most likely. Could be a post factum debate if Joe is still average or not after that feat, but there is no reason to think is impossible.

People fail more often by lack of trust in own skills, discipline, motivation and such than by lack of capabilities per se. As a fun exercise, imagine a benevolent patron would grant you one million dollars for each language you bring to that level (minimum 6). Pretty sure would give at least a good try at that. So "average Joe", avid reader that would love to read great books in the original, has to check his motivation against that example.
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Re: New Prof Argüelles Youtube Series

Postby einzelne » Mon Jun 27, 2022 5:21 pm

thevagrant88 wrote:So, I’m confused. Why are you complaining about that here and now if that wasn’t the focus of the video?


Because generally I find his approach to language learning realistic and his learning techniques useful. Besides, we share the same language learning philosophy — I don't see the point of learning a dozen of languages just for doomscrolling or reading Harry Potter at best. I learn a language when I see something intellectually or esthetically appealing which is not available in the languages I already know. Just like for him, for me languages are a medium of spiritual exercise. So It's disappointing to see him persisting in this "6 languages for reading literature" claim. It reeks of 'fluent in no time' messages, and he's not that type of a person.
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Re: New Prof Argüelles Youtube Series

Postby Le Baron » Mon Jun 27, 2022 9:26 pm

tungemål wrote:On how many languages Europeans speak: I'd say 3 is not uncommon: Native language, English, and one or even two more that you studied in school.

There'll be some, but how real is this now as a general principle? Earlier on this evening I watched an hour programme on RTS about the Swiss railways and although it was in German the narration had been converted to French and all the people speaking were dubbed into French. This is hardly the picture of linguistic plurality, and in a country with multiple official languages!
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Re: New Prof Argüelles Youtube Series

Postby zenmonkey » Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:36 pm

Le Baron wrote:We already know the truth that in African countries where French is the 'official language', only a small, elite percentage speak it properly, if at all.


Absolute nonsense.

Go spend a few days in ... say... Douala, Cameroon. North of 50% of the population speaks French.

(... and French spoken in the various dialects of Africa is as proper as Canadian, Swiss, or Belgian French)
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